Need advice: Modded NA do the trick or Supercharge at 6x the Cost?????

[Andrew@ActiveAutowerke]

This should give you a very good idea of the power differences between an fbo car and a stage 1 kit.

Dyno was compiled from the same car same dyno within 2 days of upgrades.

Stock vs FBo vs Gen 1 level 1(Old kit)

[Dave07997S]

Another issue with the blower is if you live in a state that does smog testing. How do you get around this? EAS and VF engineering are both in the state of California it would be nice to see a CARB exempt blower kit.

Dave

[Nautik]

Originally Posted by LarThaL

I agree that catless/tune will give 25-30 whp. That is not 55hp. However, how much will a 25-30hp gain on top of 414hp make in your actual performance?

Lets look at this.

Firstly, even a stock M3 is traction limited in its low speed performance. Even if your car has 1000hp, it won't get off the line any faster. The first place to spend your money for actual increased performance is to increase the traction of the car so you can get the existing power to the ground better. So, you already need to invest in bigger wheels and wider tires.

Okay...so you argue that you are not into the whole drag strip thing, and that this is a "track car". OK, so in that case, let's see actual track times of otherwise equal cars with the only difference being basic NA mods. ( I say basic, because you are already talking about $4-5k for a good full exhaust and tune...about half the cost of a supercharger) I am willing to bet that all other things being equal, a car with just 25 more hp won't get around a track any faster in a statistically consistent manner. Your extra 25hp may get you a car length or two for all those times you get to an abandoned airstrip and can run your straight up to 150mph.

I reassert my point. By all means, do the NA mods, but do them for the change in subjective feel. Don't look for any meaningful actual performance gain.

And I am not in the least discounting the whole subjective feel thing. In the end, the joy of driving comes from a variety of sensory inputs and speed capability is only one of those.

Just don't kid yourself about what you are actually accomplishing. Believe me, I have done it all in 30 years of playing with cars....carburators, intakes, headers, exhausts, superchargers, turbochargers, standard and custom flashes, bigger and better this and that, etc. etc, etc. If you want clear cut power that you can really feel and use, get a supercharger, do the proper associated mods and be done with it.

Spoken like a man with some experience. Reminds me of the 2011 Shelby GT500. 550 HP and wasn't any faster than the M3 in the quarter mile. Like mentioned above, there are quite a few other factors to consider in order to actually do anything with more power.

I would disagree with spending 4-5k on exhaust and tune however. BMW put a lot of research into the stock exhaust I have no doubt. Paying a several thousand dollar premium over a test pipe for what might net 5 more hp at most is probably not worth it for street and non-competitive track purposes. I would think 2k should get you test pipes installed tune and maybe pullies. Those 3 should be getting you more than 30whp at least from the dyno charts forum members have been posting.

*edit* That said if you are a baller, have several cars, and could care less about the cost then do whatever you want

[Chriskm3]

Originally Posted by Dave07997S

Another issue with the blower is if you live in a state that does smog testing. How do you get around this? EAS and VF engineering are both in the state of California it would be nice to see a CARB exempt blower kit.

Dave

This is a very good point Dave.

[M3NSCH]

Originally Posted by Dave07997S

Another issue with the blower is if you live in a state that does smog testing. How do you get around this? EAS and VF engineering are both in the state of California it would be nice to see a CARB exempt blower kit.

Dave

Those same states don't allow aftermarket exhausts, x-pipes, etc - so it's a moot point. That's why everything is "for offroad use only".

You have to "find a way" to not get caught in either case. Albeit, swapping back to a stock exhaust is much easier than taking off a supercharger.

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by M3NSCH

Those same states don't allow aftermarket exhausts, x-pipes, etc - so it's a moot point. That's why everything is "for offroad use only".

You have to "find a way" to not get caught in either case. Albeit, swapping back to a stock exhaust is much easier than taking off a supercharger.

Its not a moot point as your own post answered this very question..

Albeit, swapping back to a stock exhaust is much easier than taking off a supercharger

Thats my whole point..

In fact in Cali we are going to just a OBDII port read. As long as all but one readiness codes are green you're a go. No more sniffer..what gets me worried is if they pop the hood. If you had to switch back to the OEM xpipe, no sweat.

Dave

[kerrit]

If I lived in a state where it was mostly dry year round, I would have an SC.

I already have enough traction problems with FBO when it's wet half the year here, and SC would just make it worse.

[M3NSCH]

Originally Posted by Dave07997S

Its not a moot point as your own post answered this very question..



Thats my whole point..

In fact in Cali we are going to just a OBDII port read. As long as all but one readiness codes are green you're a go. No more sniffer..what gets me worried is if they pop the hood. If you had to switch back to the OEM xpipe, no sweat.

Dave

Probably a good idea to talk to someone with a Supercharger in Cali then...

Now if only there was a device that could help you find other people in California with superchargers on their BMW M3s and ask them questions... This device would be like a combination of a TV and a typewriter, but with a connection like a phone. Maybe even a series of tubes...

I guess we'll never know.

[Jonjt]

Originally Posted by LarThaL

I agree that catless/tune will give 25-30 whp. That is not 55hp. However, how much will a 25-30hp gain on top of 414hp make in your actual performance?

Lets look at this.

Firstly, even a stock M3 is traction limited in its low speed performance. Even if your car has 1000hp, it won't get off the line any faster. The first place to spend your money for actual increased performance is to increase the traction of the car so you can get the existing power to the ground better. So, you already need to invest in bigger wheels and wider tires.

Okay...so you argue that you are not into the whole drag strip thing, and that this is a "track car". OK, so in that case, let's see actual track times of otherwise equal cars with the only difference being basic NA mods. ( I say basic, because you are already talking about $4-5k for a good full exhaust and tune...about half the cost of a supercharger) I am willing to bet that all other things being equal, a car with just 25 more hp won't get around a track any faster in a statistically consistent manner. Your extra 25hp may get you a car length or two for all those times you get to an abandoned airstrip and can run your straight up to 150mph.

I reassert my point. By all means, do the NA mods, but do them for the change in subjective feel. Don't look for any meaningful actual performance gain.

And I am not in the least discounting the whole subjective feel thing. In the end, the joy of driving comes from a variety of sensory inputs and speed capability is only one of those.

Just don't kid yourself about what you are actually accomplishing. Believe me, I have done it all in 30 years of playing with cars....carburators, intakes, headers, exhausts, superchargers, turbochargers, standard and custom flashes, bigger and better this and that, etc. etc, etc. If you want clear cut power that you can really feel and use, get a supercharger, do the proper associated mods and be done with it.

Agree with everything you said.

However

40hp is a significant. BUT!, it will take a good driver and proper instruments to actually see the difference 40hp brings, at least, if you are road racing. But, a 40hp increase will definitely make the car faster for most of the driving M3 drivers do. Lane changes, merging and illegal road racing will see a benefit with a 40hp increase.

[LarThaL]

Originally Posted by Jonjt

Agree with everything you said.

However

40hp is a significant. BUT!, it will take a good driver and proper instruments to actually see the difference 40hp brings, at least, if you are road racing. But, a 40hp increase will definitely make the car faster for most of the driving M3 drivers do. Lane changes, merging and illegal road racing will see a benefit with a 40hp increase.

Agreed. 40hp is signficant, but for every car that dynos a 40hp gain, there will be a car with the same mods that dynos only a 20hp gain and the owner will be scratching his head asking WTF?? My point is also in reference to the OP, who is considering a supercharger.

[Jonjt]

Originally Posted by LarThaL

Agreed. 40hp is signficant, but for every car that dynos a 40hp gain, there will be a car with the same mods that dynos only a 20hp gain and the owner will be scratching his head asking WTF?? My point is also in reference to the OP, who is considering a supercharger.

No argument here.

[dmw16]

Originally Posted by KROD

...(there obviously is good reason for BMW moving to FI on their next generations)...

I don't think BMW is going to forced induction because they feel the current generation M3 lacks power. NA cars aren't going to throw you back in your seat like a FI car, but that's not what BMW has traditionally gone for in the M-cars. Instead it's been a wave of power that builds with the revs.

Quite to the contrary I think that the engineers at M would love to keep building special high-rev'ing NA engines. M is going FI because of business and political/environmental pressures.

Sorry, I don't want to derail this thread into an E9X vs F3X, NA vs FI, "They are ruining M" debate. But I thought it was worth mentioning that M is not going to FI so they can snap your head back when you hit the gas.

[KROD]

Well I was referring to better power delivery/potential, and fuel efficiency. But yes I agree its not to solely build a more powerful car. BMW does need to step their game up though bc their competition (Mercedes for example) is putting out some real beasts straight from the factory in their new generations. I've always been a BMW and M fan and theres something about the M series that I just love.

[dmw16]

Originally Posted by KROD

Well I was referring to better power delivery/potential, and fuel efficiency. But yes I agree its not to solely build a more powerful car. BMW does need to step their game up though bc their competition (Mercedes for example) is putting out some real beasts straight from the factory in their new generations. I've always been a BMW and M fan and theres something about the M series that I just love.

The AMG is just a different car I think. The AMG is sort of a sledgehammer approach.

I'd like to think if it weren't for fuel efficiency pressures that M could get more power from an NA power plant.

I love NA. FI is cheating

[M3NSCH]

Originally Posted by dmw16

The AMG is just a different car I think. The AMG is sort of a sledgehammer approach.

I'd like to think if it weren't for fuel efficiency pressures that M could get more power from an NA power plant.

I love NA. FI is cheating

The AMGs are beasts... but let's be honest, the M's should at LEAST compete with them class vs class. Same goes for the RS Audi's.

Without a supercharger (and really, it's gotta be Stage 2+... the Stage 1 SCs don't cut it, thus so many for sale) the M3s frankly don't compete.

I'll also go so far to say that the reason for the turbos on the next gen is for power, with the added marketing line item of fuel efficiency. Remember the Toyota Supra (and others) were making massive power with an Inline 6/TwinTurbo setup 20 years ago! It's really about time BMW caught up and shows the world how to really do it right (look at the M5/M6).

And remember, at one time the other FI (Fuel Injection) was "cheating" to the carburated guys... Tomorrow electric motors (KERS anyone?) will be "cheating" to the turbo guys... Absolutely nothing wrong with using technology to win.

[dmw16]

Originally Posted by M3NSCH

The AMGs are beasts... but let's be honest, the M's should at LEAST compete with them class vs class. Same goes for the RS Audi's.

Without a supercharger (and really, it's gotta be Stage 2+... the Stage 1 SCs don't cut it, thus so many for sale) the M3s frankly don't compete.

I'll also go so far to say that the reason for the turbos on the next gen is for power, with the added marketing line item of fuel efficiency. Remember the Toyota Supra (and others) were making massive power with an Inline 6/TwinTurbo setup 20 years ago! It's really about time BMW caught up and shows the world how to really do it right (look at the M5/M6).

And remember, at one time the other FI (Fuel Injection) was "cheating" to the carburated guys... Tomorrow electric motors (KERS anyone?) will be "cheating" to the turbo guys... Absolutely nothing wrong with using technology to win.

I agree the power numbers should be similar, but even with additional power the C63 isn't going around the 'Ring any faster than the M3 (heck, it only beat the E46 CSL by 3sec). There's more to "fast" than horsepower and torque numbers. Having said that, I know people here know that but the buying public does want numbers. So BMW does need to be competitive.

There's no question that BMW is going FI to make more power, but I think it's largely to make more power in a less expensive way. They could get an NA engine up to competitive levels, but the costs would be too high.

FI is the way things are going and really I'm cool with that because I like fuel efficiency, but I will always love the great NA ///M engines.

[M3NSCH]

Originally Posted by dmw16

I agree the power numbers should be similar, but even with additional power the C63 isn't going around the 'Ring any faster than the M3 (heck, it only beat the E46 CSL by 3sec). There's more to "fast" than horsepower and torque numbers. Having said that, I know people here know that but the buying public does want numbers. So BMW does need to be competitive.

There's no question that BMW is going FI to make more power, but I think it's largely to make more power in a less expensive way. They could get an NA engine up to competitive levels, but the costs would be too high.

FI is the way things are going and really I'm cool with that because I like fuel efficiency, but I will always love the great NA ///M engines.