America's Best-Handling Car Part II (Motor Trend)

[Dascamel]

Originally Posted by enigma

The open diff hurts, a lot.

+1

Tune, diff, coilovers, non-rfts, shave off some serious time. Anyway, as a track car 335i needs some help to be a beast. e90 post guys have already discussed that.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...=158204&page=5

[sayemthree]

Originally Posted by enigma

Again with the lag....

Its different, you need to adjust or just go back to a manual.

how do you adjust to the ECU picking a mystery gear during hard braking?

[sayemthree]

Originally Posted by Gearhead999s

Only the GT3 rs comes with the Sport Cups as standard.

Motor trend on the GT3:

The GT3 apparently sports one of those familiar airport cinnamon buns in each wheelwell. At least, it feels that sticky the first time you hurl it into a corner. Credit a racebred suspension that, like the old GT3's, is a feast for tinkerers: The front anti-roll bars are adjustable to any of five positions, the rears are good for three, and you can tilt the wheels through six degrees of camber. New is Porsche Active Suspension Management (PASM), whose computer-controlled dampers offer driver-selectable standard and Sport modes. Wheels have grown to 19-inchers all around (in back they're also an inch wider than before) wearing brilliant Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tires-which are about as close as you can legally get to street-legal racing slicks

[lucid]

Originally Posted by Dascamel

+1

Tune, diff, coilovers, non-rfts, shave off some serious time. Anyway, as a track car 335i needs some help to be a beast. e90 post guys have already discussed that.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...=158204&page=5

Of course you can turn any car into a track performer with mods. I was remarking on the stock Cobalt vs stock 335 difference.

[footie]

Originally Posted by lucid

Of course you can turn any car into a track performer with mods. I was remarking on the stock Cobalt vs stock 335 difference.

If this test had been in Europe and included a Renault Megane R26-R I think a lot more cars would have been embarrassed, because it is shit quick on any twisty course.

[sayemthree]

Originally Posted by lucid

Of course you can turn any car into a track performer with mods. I was remarking on the stock Cobalt vs stock 335 difference.

thats sort of emarassing to BMW!

[Dascamel]

Thats the point, th 335i could have been quicker out of the box with relatively minor changes.(cost) But the car was held back most likely due to the M.

[Voltigeur]

I thought it was worth noting that the reviewer really liked the steering including the fat wheel. So many have been harsh in their criticism on this area of execution.

[sayemthree]

Originally Posted by footie

If this test had been in Europe and included a Renault Megane R26-R I think a lot more cars would have been embarrassed, because it is shit quick on any twisty course.

I think its more the power to weight advantage of the Cavalier. Laguna is not all that twisty and favors high horsepower.

I agree on the steering - I think its good. GRM also liked it over the past m3's.

[Voltigeur]

Originally Posted by lucid

I was thinking the exact same thing. $22k FWD 3000lb 260hp car beats $40k RWD 3500 lb 300hp car. Very close lb/hp ratio, and the 335 should handle better...

Veritable giant slayer at that price.

[sayemthree]

Originally Posted by Voltigeur

Veritable giant slayer at that price.

didnt realize HP to wt is so close. tires maybe?

[enigma]

Originally Posted by sayemthree

didnt realize HP to wt is so close. tires maybe?

Or the fact is has a good diff, stock.
Or that its tuned to be a performance car and not a luxury car.
Or the better stock tires.

Chevy clearly designed it as a cheap performace car, the 335 is designed to be a comfy car not too close in perf to the M3. Different objectives.

BMW gets great lap times, for big heavy luxury cars... They are not sports cars, the fact that they can keep up most of the time is a huge achievement. However, its not without its tradeoffs.

I really wish more people on this board had a broad experience of cars on tracks. You get a much better feel for the tradeoffs that BMW made with their cars. Its a brilliant ballance and the reason I own one, but not without its flaws.

[Dascamel]

Originally Posted by enigma

I really wish more people on this board had a broad experience of cars on tracks. You get a much better feel for the tradeoffs that BMW made with their cars. Its a brilliant ballance and the reason I own one, but not without its flaws.

So true, the balance is incredible. Daily functional with good performance.

[sayemthree]

Originally Posted by enigma

Or the fact is has a good diff, stock.
Or that its tuned to be a performance car and not a luxury car.
Or the better stock tires.

Chevy clearly designed it as a cheap performace car, the 335 is designed to be a comfy car not too close in perf to the M3. Different objectives.

BMW gets great lap times, for big heavy luxury cars... They are not sports cars, the fact that they can keep up most of the time is a huge achievement. However, its not without its tradeoffs.

I really wish more people on this board had a broad experience of cars on tracks. You get a much better feel for the tradeoffs that BMW made with their cars. Its a brilliant ballance and the reason I own one, but not without its flaws.

the fact is Chevy did a great job. for the price the Cobalt kicks butt on the others in its class, GTI, Civic Si, and yes event the BMW built Mini S etc.

[sayemthree]

Originally Posted by enigma
The open diff hurts, a lot.

why does Lotus recommend the open diff for the track?

[enigma]

Originally Posted by sayemthree

why does Lotus recommend the open diff for the track?

Because they didn't want people to crash.

Its not faster. I have the before and after LSD install logs to prove it. The cars would spin up the inside tire every lap in T11 at thunderhill. You get about 0.5s faster drive down the back straight with one. The flip side is twitchier handling.

If only the two compaines would work together because a BMW drivetrain in a Lotus chassis would be downright awesome. I hate the toyota engine/gearbox.

[sayemthree]

Originally Posted by enigma

Because they didn't want people to crash.

Its not faster. I have the before and after LSD install logs to prove it. The cars would spin up the inside tire every lap in T11 at thunderhill. You get about 0.5s faster drive down the back straight with one. The flip side is twitchier handling.

If only the two compaines would work together because a BMW drivetrain in a Lotus chassis would be downright awesome. I hate the toyota engine/gearbox.

x2 on the Toyota drivetrain, even tho they are bulletproof . I was disappointed when Lotus went that direction.

my GTI spins the inside tire pretty bad on the track on tight turns. it could really use a lim slip diff.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by sayemthree

the fact is Chevy did a great job. for the price the Cobalt kicks butt on the others in its class, GTI, Civic Si, and yes event the BMW built Mini S etc.

Yes, it is true that the Chevy kicks ass in its class in that regard. It is clearly tuned more aggressively out the box. I think that is kind of a smart thing to do actually given there is probably a good solid base of buyers in their early 20s who want performance, do not necessarily know how to get it or don't want to mod, and don't have much money to burn. Now, is a chipped Chevy faster than an M3?

[lucid]

Originally Posted by enigma

Or the fact is has a good diff, stock.
Or that its tuned to be a performance car and not a luxury car.
Or the better stock tires.

Chevy clearly designed it as a cheap performace car, the 335 is designed to be a comfy car not too close in perf to the M3. Different objectives.

BMW gets great lap times, for big heavy luxury cars... They are not sports cars, the fact that they can keep up most of the time is a huge achievement. However, its not without its tradeoffs.

I really wish more people on this board had a broad experience of cars on tracks. You get a much better feel for the tradeoffs that BMW made with their cars. Its a brilliant ballance and the reason I own one, but not without its flaws.

I don't think you need extensive track experience to understand that stock cars are not designed/tuned for the track, and, therefore, embody many trade-offs such as ride quality that make them not as fast as they could be on the track. Regardless, I am sure experimenting with different setups on different cars on a track would further and solidify that understanding.

The point is, as you are saying, BMW does an excellent job in producing livable cars without giving up “too much” performance. They seem to pull that off very well, especially when it comes to chassis/suspension design. That's why I buy BMWs. And that's why I am surprised at the Chevy outperfoming the 335 significantly at a similar power/weight ratio; the Chevy is still a road car as well. I have not driven one so I can't say how they handled the trade-offs exactly.

However, I just did some research on its diff and realized it has LSD, which I had assumed it did not have when I first saw the lap times. That would surely make a difference. Not a whole lot of inexpensive cars come with it--even as an option. It was something like a $400 option on my Miata many years ago, which had a tremendous price to fun ratio.

[sayemthree]

I would not exactly call the Viper ACR streetable as an daily driver from what I have read!

[lucid]

Originally Posted by sayemthree

I would not exactly call the Viper ACR streetable as an daily driver from what I have read!

Well, come on, that's a limited production special purpose car...

[sayemthree]

Originally Posted by lucid

Well, come on, that's a limited production special purpose car...

so is the M3!!!!

the Viper also has PSC tires. for a hint at which car wins...note that Randy loved the mid-engine balance.