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06-02-2012, 11:35 AM | #1 |
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Brake balance calculations
I am looking for piston diameters for brakes in M3 applications. Rotor sizes are readily available. If you want to be super accurate the fitment templates have extra information, such as where the pad bites on the rotor e.t.c.
Brake torque T can be expressed as follows T=c*A*D. c= a constant for a given master cylinder and friction material (pads). A=total piston surface area on one side of the caliper. D=rotor diameter (or more accurately diameter of circle that the center of the clamping force on the disc, but rotor diameter should be enough for good estimates). A can be calculated given the piston diameters that seem to be nowhere available online. Only stop tech provides diameters. Given the above simple formula brake bias front to back is calculated as follows: B=(Af*Df)/(Ab*Db) f=front b=back Why these calculations are useful: 1) Stoptech says you can mix and match stock calipers with their calipers. This assumes that both the st60 and st40 front calipers do not alter (increase) brake torque. I don't want to assume in general if it is easy to calculate. 2) Brembo says nothing about mixing and matching so I want to figure out whether their caliper increases brake torque at the front so that it needs to be matched by a corresponding increase in the back. This is another simple calculation: B=(Abr*Dbr)/(As*Ds) br=brembo s=stock (either back or front assuming same pad material) If B>1 brembo calipers generate more torque = they will stop a wheels going 100 mph faster to the point where most braking force is applied to actually stopping the vehicle instead of decreasing the rotational energy of the wheel. I searched before posting this as I am definitely not the only one to look for information like that. I will measure stock pistons next time I change into my track pads. Can anyone provide information about the stock and aftermarket pistons? (Vendors you should know this stuff. If you don't please could you measure some of the calipers you have lying around). I will update the data below adding balance ratios as needed: Piston diameters: stock front= 60mm stock back= 46mm st40 355 front = p1: 44mm p2: 42mm st40 355 back = p1: 34mm p2: 30mm st60 380 front = p1: 36mm p2: 30mm p3:30mm brembo 6 for 365 rotor =? brembo 6 front for 380 rotor =? brembo 4 back 380=? brembo 4 back 350(?)=? ap racing 6 front=? ap racing 4 back=? (... whatever else ...) Please point out flaws in the write up above. Its all high school physics. (All the above given same friction material front and back). Hence, stoptech can rightfully claim they provide a balanced upgrade no matter what you go with. All the balances above are within at least 2.5% of stock. Nice! Last edited by r53s65e90; 06-10-2012 at 09:26 PM.. Reason: update with actual stop tech piston sizes available on their website |
06-02-2012, 01:58 PM | #2 | |
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As you say, the Stoptech ones are available from ST. Brembo doesn't say anything. AP Racing diameters are on the UK site in the assembly drawings. I've done all these calculations and the various calipers I've evaluated are all within about 10% of each other. Basically, the auto industry has what looks like an industry standard for front and rear piston sizes, at least within a narrow range of total areas. Most BBK's match the stock sizes closely, usually slightly less piston area. Rotor sizes and swept diameters are also pretty standard, although the OEM rotors are usually deeper from rim to inside edge of the friction face. Keep in mind that when you change pads, all your careful calculations go out the window because the mu of the new pads could be anywhere from half to double the mu of the pads you took off. |
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06-03-2012, 08:08 PM | #3 |
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Since brake torque is a product of total piston area and rotor diameter, I would assume that going to a BBK would increase brake torque over the equivalent stock application. If StopTech says you can use their ST40 front caliper or their ST60 front caliper with the stock rears and brake bias is not affected, they must be varying the individual piston sizes of the ST40 4–piston setup vs. the ST60 6-piston setup to maintain the same overall piston area as the OEM SINGLE piston.
I know StopTech prides themselves on their "balanced brake upgrades," so varying piston sizes must be the answer. Otherwise, an ST40 front/OEM rear or ST60 front/OEM rear would have a different front-rear bias compared to my ST60 front/ST40 rear setup. Is it possible that with the ST60f/ST40r setup they actually allow higher brake torque at each axle over OEM, but front and rear torque is increased to the same degree, so the overall front-rear bias stays the same as OEM? And what about the rotor diameter part of the equation? The 380mm rotors used with the ST60 front calipers are larger than OEM, so the brake torque should also be increased over OEM, unless they decrease the total piston area vs. OEM to compensate--3 StopTech pistons on one side of the rotor having LESS total area than a single OEM piston--but why would they do this? Are multiple pistons only for providing more uniform pressure/contact of the pads on the rotors vs. a single piston? I'm probably just reiterating the original post, but I'm trying to work it through in my head... |
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06-03-2012, 08:24 PM | #4 | ||
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st40 355 front = p1: 44mm p2: 42mm (44mm is max size for st40) st40 355 back = p1: 34mm p2: 32mm st60 380 front = p1: 36mm p2: 34mm p3:32mm (or 40 34 29 who knows?) These sizes would allow mixing and matching stoptech and stock rotors with negligible change to brake balance. Stock balance is: F/R = 1.74 Stoptech ST40 all around is: F/R = 1.69 Stoptech ST60/ST40 is: F/R = 1.70 Stoptech ST60/stock is: F/R = 1.78 Stoptech ST40/stock is: F/R = 1.77 (All the above given same friction material front and back). Hence, stoptech can rightfully claim they provide a balanced upgrade no matter what you go with. All the balances above are within at least 2.5% of stock. Nice! Would be nice to figure out piston sizes for the other brands. I ran out of time while looking for piston sizes on APs website... Some other time maybe. Quote:
Last edited by r53s65e90; 06-03-2012 at 08:44 PM.. |
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06-03-2012, 08:33 PM | #5 | ||
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06-04-2012, 03:17 PM | #6 | |
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Do you happen to know the width of the brake pads, front and rear? I believe I came up with 65mm - based on that, I am getting a slightly higher bias of 1.77:1 for an OEM configuration based on those width estimates, though I am only basing those on the measured braking surface of the E9x rotors. I built a massive spreadsheet containing a worksheet of front caliper/rotor combinations, and one of rear caliper/rotor combinations, then a cross between the two in another worksheet that gives any given bias for any given combination of F/R caliper/rotor combination. This spreadsheet is for the E46 M3 and its variant packages, but should work just fine for anything you'd want to plug in if you have more numbers. It really is interesting to see how certain brake kit combinations could produce an astonishingly dangerous rear bias. |
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06-04-2012, 08:51 PM | #7 |
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Your stoptech information is incorrect. I'm looking at my caliper right now and can confirm that the front st60 piston sizes are 36 36 30.
Last edited by RickyBobby; 06-09-2012 at 11:39 PM.. |
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06-05-2012, 01:50 AM | #8 | |||
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Front http://www.pagidracing.com/brakes/8053.html Rear: http://www.pagidracing.com/brakes/8021.html They are links from: http://www.pagidracing.com/car.html Quote:
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Last edited by r53s65e90; 06-05-2012 at 01:56 AM.. |
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06-05-2012, 05:48 PM | #9 | |||
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Edit: I just looked, that gives the overall height of the backing plate, not necessarily the pad width. Getting real dimensions from FMSI specs seems like pulling teeth to me. It has taken a lot of first-hand intelligence to get specs from various pads to ensure that the swept area matches the rotor diameter - annulus when matching different caliper to rotor combinations. It also is a fundamental requirement when calculating the brake torque. The length of the pad is irrelevant, but the width is very much relevant and can change the bias significantly. Quote:
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06-09-2012, 08:32 PM | #10 |
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Upated post 1 with information from here:
http://www.stoptech.com/Search/Produ...NA/BigBrakeKit http://www.stoptech.com/Search/Produ...NA/BigBrakeKit http://www.stoptech.com/Search/Produ...NA/BigBrakeKit |
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07-07-2012, 10:30 AM | #11 |
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I just wanted to supply an update about a thread I posted over at m3forum.net. Though the specs in parentheses are only correct for the E46 M3, the arithmetic and algebra should be consistent across the board. When contemplating master cylinder changes, the overall brake bias of a car is significantly different than what is usually reported, which is simply that of the front to rear caliper measurements, using a single average line pressure for front and rear, which all know to be patently false. That being said, if one stays within the confines of adjustment on the same car, ceteris paribus, only adjusting calipers, rotors and pads, it's OK to neglect line pressure as it's still a linear formula - it's the differential that matters most, either more or less forward than an OEM configuration.
Here is the direct link to the thread I started there, I'll try to keep it maintained/updated to the best of my ability. If it's so desired, I can make both the F/R caliper/rotor/pad calculations AND overall including MC piston sizes if those are known for the E92 M3 and post them here. BTW, not ALL BBK manufacturers post the piston diameters on the caliper, or the piston. I've got on the order of at least a dozen different Brembo calipers in my hands at this very moment, and I can easily count on one of those hands, unfortunately, how many actually cast the size of the piston into the caliper. Totally off the topic: the best way to make the determination is to remove the pistons from one bank using a small fitting (10mmx1.0mm thread pitch adapted to a tire valve) and a bicycle pump. Using an air hose can be dangerous, not to mention the increased likelihood of damaging a ceramic-topped piston as it ejects from the cylinder bore at a ridiculously-high velocity (which directly translates to kinetic energy). Ask me how I know this, even when I covered the piston in question and took reasonable measures to ensure it wouldn't get damaged. NOW, I have a very specific "device" that covers one piston in its entirety, such that when it does "pop", it is pushed into a 1/2" rubber-foam lined cavity. Then, measure the piston -- SOMETIMES, in caliper/piston combinations that have been in service for quite some time, that they have a slight taper from front to rear. It's interesting to me, though I can't find rhyme or reason as to why that is the case. Either way, I'm always absolutely certain to mate the original pistons to their respective bores, even if I'm certain they're well within sufficient operating tolerance to behave correctly. Ok, enough about that - I hope that post helps someone! |
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07-08-2012, 01:34 AM | #12 |
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Ok, alright, break it up all you engineering nerds!
This is a REAL car forum, so the answer to any and all questions on this board can be summed up as follows: Needs a drop, tints, and add 20s.
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05-14-2019, 06:06 PM | #13 |
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Bump, need some help with the math.
Could someone calculate the change in bias when replacing the front OEM calipers with the AP CP9040 front 6 pot? Pistons are as follows: - Ø27.0 x 2 - Ø31.8 x 2 - Ø38.1 x 2 |
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05-14-2019, 08:57 PM | #14 | |
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(572.56 + 794.23 + 1140.9) * 2 = 5,015.38
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05-15-2019, 05:33 AM | #16 |
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No need to multiply by 2 unless you're doing the same with the single piston setup.
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05-15-2019, 01:08 PM | #17 |
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So apples to apples would be 2507 for the APs and OEM would be (60/2)^2x3.14159 = 2827?
How does this difference in piston area (~13% more on the OEM) then convert to bias F/R calcs on the same rotors? Seems like bias would be moving to the rear a little? |
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05-15-2019, 02:46 PM | #18 | |
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If my calculations are right, this would be an F/R ratio of 1.55 with a front 360mm stock rotor. AP Racing 9660 users a 372mm rotor, and the F/R ratio would be 1.60 with stock rear brakes. I know we arent attributing to brake pressure and brake torque either... so I'm not sure how accurate this would be. https://www.mathworks.com/help/physm...discbrake.html
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05-15-2019, 06:05 PM | #19 |
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That's cool, thanks! I know some users and manufacturers like moving bias forward, but PFC actually liked moving it to the rear and that makes some sense too. I think within a couple percent is immaterial, but wanted to know exactly how close and in which direction we were moving.
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05-28-2019, 06:56 PM | #20 |
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How do you convert bias calcs expressed in a decimal (e.g., F/R of 1.55) to be expressed in a percent (e.g., 66% front)?
Copied from above ---- Stock balance is: F/R = 1.74 [or 65% according to Slonik] Stoptech ST40 all around is: F/R = 1.69 Stoptech ST60/ST40 is: F/R = 1.70 Stoptech ST40/stock is: F/R = 1.77 Stoptech ST60/stock is: F/R = 1.78 AP 9040 + oem rotors F + stock rear = 1.55 AP 9040 + 372mm + stock rear = 1.60 Slonik 6 piston brembo setup on oem rotor, stock rear = 66.5% on the front. Slonik 6 piston brembo setup on f8x 380mm rotor, stock rear = 71% on the front. The 1.55 of the AP9040 scares me a bit, pretty far from the stock bias, no? Last edited by wyatth; 05-28-2019 at 08:44 PM.. |
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05-28-2019, 07:21 PM | #21 |
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I think all of your calculations don't take into account the balance of the car's brake bias valve. You assume pressure to be equal to all calipers, and any bias must come from piston/disc size. I think this is rather simplistic in our cars with internal brake bias valves, and/or ABS/DSC which is constantly minutely monitoring the slip at each wheel and adjusting braking accordingly. Correct me if I'm wrong?
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05-28-2019, 08:31 PM | #22 | |
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This link accounts for brake pressure which would account for bias as the brake pressure between the front/rear may be different.
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