Buttonwillow 7/28 1:55:57 - Ralph Warren M3

[dapopa9]

I was just looking at the time on Speed Ventures website from Buttonwillow Raceway on 7/28/2013 and saw a 2008 M3 with a 1:55:57. That is crazy fast! I would like to see that video. This a forum member?


http://www.speedventures.com/results...id=-2146676560

[larryn]

That's Scott Cary's car, and he has had Ralph Warren driving his cars fro many years. I think Scott's on here occasionally as scottn2retro, and Ralph goes by his name. Scott had a prepared e46 M3 and a 135i. He is usually in Crevier/Maxxis livery.

Had the pleasure of having lunch with them at OFest at Watkins Glen in 2008. Great folk, both of them, and Ralph kicked ass there in the rain in the 135i. Easily fastest car in the wet.

[dogbone]

Yeah that was a fully prepped race car.

Here's a promotional video of it:

[dapopa9]

Anyone ever run those tires he is running?

[dapopa9]

Anyone ever run those tires he is running?

[tom @ eas]

Ralph is good people, and an incredibly skilled driver.

Also has an E46 Touring (full M3 conversion, engine/trans/interior) I've been drooling over.

[The HACK]

Ralph also makes a killer lobster bisque.

[1MOREMOD]

i recognize the blue m3 on the video as well being someone off here.

[dapopa9]

That wagon would be fun!

[OC3]

Originally Posted by dapopa9

I was just looking at the time on Speed Ventures website from Buttonwillow Raceway on 7/28/2013 and saw a 2008 M3 with a 1:55:57. That is crazy fast! I would like to see that video. This a forum member?

http://www.speedventures.com/results...id=-2146676560

Originally Posted by dogbone

Yeah that was a fully prepped race car.

Here's a promotional video of it:

With all due respect to the driver, high 1:55 (near 1:56) isn't all that impressive from such built car.

Originally Posted by dapopa9

Anyone ever run those tires he is running?

I have, on borrowed BRZ (w/ Tein suspension), at Streets of Willow:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=794451

Ran R-S3 on first 2 sessions, then those Maxxis slicks on the last 2 sessions.

Spent the day screwing around (drifting thru the skid pad) and not being a fan of Streets of Willow, didn't focus on how good Maxxis might be. Just don't recall being all that impressed with its grip.

[1MOREMOD]

dude OC3 just noticed you had 3 jerez. what gives you must really be set on that color. i liked it too but wanted to try one of each.

[OC3]

What can I say, Imma creature of habit.

[admranger]

Originally Posted by The HACK

Ralph also makes a killer lobster bisque.

Chuck Norris yields to Ralph Warren.

In all seriousness, Ralph and Scott have the right approach to this stuff. Very business-like. They are successful in their careers and they apply that same level of rigor into the preparation of the cars (and into the art and science of driving, in Ralph's case). It doesn't just happen by chance.

[kaiv]

Originally Posted by OC3

With all due respect to the driver, high 1:55 (near 1:56) isn't all that impressive from such built car.

You have to keep in mind that the 6MT is easily a 1-2 sec handicap vs DCT so all in all it's a pretty frigging fast time

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by kaiv

You have to keep in mind that the 6MT is easily a 1-2 sec handicap vs DCT so all in all it's a pretty frigging fast time

Really? How so?

[smmmurf]

Originally Posted by The HACK

Really? How so?

Kaiv is correct.

DCT is an advantage on track on most circuits with an advantage of approximately 1-2 seconds over a 2 minute circuit. Less if the driver shifts faster than average in 6MT (~1sec). Much more if the driver upshifts slower than average and especially so if the driver cannot execute heel toe downshifting as that will expand the braking zones (driver will have to be more conservative on the brakes or unsettle the car coming into corner).

What is lost in shift timing is partially made up for by slightly lower weight and less drivetrain loss but those are actually very small offsets to the closer ratios and faster shift speed.

Note, 6MT may not be a disadvantage in an autocross. Less shifts, lighter weight.

I don't much care since my M3 is a street car. But if I were building a race M3 and had no penalty for DCT for classing purposes, I would build a DCT.

[The HACK]

Is there empirical data to back this up? I find it hard to believe.

Even if each upshift takes ~.5 seconds longer, it doesn't equal to same amount of time lost on track. I think if there's REALLY advantage to be had with sequential type clutchless transmissions, it comes in the confidence it gives to a driver knowing they won't be missing a gear. It doesn't translate to SECONDS on track in the hands of a semi-pro like Ralph. And it certainly doesn't come in the braking zones. And even during upshift, you don't actually LOSE half a second on lap time, you lose half a second "under power" but that translates to maybe 10th of a second of lap time (because, as you know, the car is still moving forward for that ~1/2 of a second that the driveline isn't engaged). If my math is correct, there's only 7 or 8 upshifts at Buttonwillow. IMO, the differences between DCT and 6MT is probably minuscule in the hands of a guy like Ralph.

And before we compare our own lap times against Ralph's...And I'm not defending Ralph because I've sort of known him since he drove in Speed World Challenge when it was called The World Challenge in his E36 M3...do we know what direction that lap time was recorded in, and what configuration, and how the session is run? You gotta keep in mind that the lap times were recorded in race situations, where you may be dodging lapped cars and trying to keep your closest competitors at bay, while possibly navigating through a sea of other makes/models (for example, NASA runs Spec 944 with Spec Miata in the same session at times with BMW CCA CR). Plus Config 1 vs. Config 13 is a good 5-8 seconds a lap difference, and clockwise and counter-clockwise is another good 3-5 seconds worth, if not more.

Personally, I enjoy looking at other people's lap times, but ultimately, it is my own lap times in each session on the same day I need to be critical of, because of the way temperature, humidity, tires, configuration...etc all make an appreciable difference in actual lap time, even if the equipment is similar. I personally know that even if my MZ4 Coupe were prepared to HP rules, I don't think I'll be finishing in front of Ralph on the podium at the end of the day unless I have another 10 season's worth of racing under my belt (not just track days, RACING*)

* A little post script. I took a few of Judy Ray's Driving Concept race schools. A 5 year old daughter and lack of funds (that's probably redundant, 5 year old daughter = lack of funds, period) prevented me from pursuing a career in club racing, but I have new found respect for the skills of those who do. If you think you've plateaued in HPDE, take a few race schools. Going up turn 3 at WSIR with another car inches away from your door while both driver's right foot is buried in the throttle, and you need to make a split second decision as to whether you want to defend your inside line when the other car is ~800lbs lighter and make PROBABLY the same HP as you do, with 2 other cars inches in front of you battling trying to make the same decision you are, gives brand new definition to "adrenaline rush." At this point lap time is the least of my worries. I'll worry about lap time during qualifying.

That split second hesitation cost me 3 spots. Two other cars squeezed by when I breathed off. Really didn't feel like bending the metal of 1 of 3 Interlagos MZ4 Coupe with Dark Sepang interior in North America.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by smmmurf

I don't much care since my M3 is a street car. But if I were building a race M3 and had no penalty for DCT for classing purposes, I would build a DCT.

By the way, Scott Cary and Ralph's previous M3 race car was an E46 M3 with SMG. They will probably NEVER admit it, but from a few private conversations I had with them, despite the lack of classing penalties, there are certain competitive disadvantages with the electro-hydraulic transmissions.

From what I've seen, those who choose to run sequential gear boxes either ultimately give up and move back to manuals, or they run REAL race sequential boxes like Hewland clutchless gearboxes. Actually, Scott and Ralph are probably the most successful club racers to run an OE sequential box, and from what I gather, it was more trouble than it's worth.

[OC3]

Originally Posted by kaiv

You have to keep in mind that the 6MT is easily a 1-2 sec handicap vs DCT

Woh... this can be taken wrong on so many levels.

I'll leave it up to The_HACK to dissect your & smmmurf's opinions, and I'll just rhetorically and simplistically wonder out loud, really? 1-2 sec??

Originally Posted by kaiv

so all in all it's a pretty frigging fast time

Completely disagree, considering the caliber of driver Warren appears to be and the level to which that car is built up. :P

[TheKosherStogie]

^ I disagree as well. I haven't driven the same car on same track to say for sure but I just don't believe that going from my boss 302 (manual) to DCT M3 still trying to catch my boss times, obviously it's a different car thou

[smmmurf]

Originally Posted by The HACK

By the way, Scott Cary and Ralph's previous M3 race car was an E46 M3 with SMG. They will probably NEVER admit it, but from a few private conversations I had with them, despite the lack of classing penalties, there are certain competitive disadvantages with the electro-hydraulic transmissions.

From what I've seen, those who choose to run sequential gear boxes either ultimately give up and move back to manuals, or they run REAL race sequential boxes like Hewland clutchless gearboxes. Actually, Scott and Ralph are probably the most successful club racers to run an OE sequential box, and from what I gather, it was more trouble than it's worth.

I race Performance Technic's 6MT E46 M3 in USTCC GT against a similarly prepared SMG E46 M3 (~C-Mod BMWCCA prep) and am familiar with the characteristics of each gearbox. I agree on SMG vs. 6MT in the E46 chassis but not DCT vs. 6MT in the E9x.

In the E46 chassis, I would take 6MT for reliability, shift speed, as well as the ability to control the launch given that we do standing starts.

However, in the E9x, DCT vs. 6MT is a different situation. Versus the prior semi-automatic gearbox, DCT has faster shift times and much greater reliability than SMG. If I were to race an E9x chassis car and took no penalty for a sequential or DCT, I would clearly prefer those to the 6MT for performance. DCT over 6MT in the E9x is a no brainer, especially because it is easier to left foot brake with a two pedal car in all situations as opposed to only in corners where no downshift is required in a three pedal car.

(I would still keep my 6MT E90 M3 for pleasure on the street. Street cars are about enjoyment and I prefer to row my own gears.)

[smmmurf]

To better illustrate the 6MT vs. DCT in an E9x race car point, imagine this race occurring on each straightaway of a hypothetical track. Clearly, having this happen on every straightaway would translate to a time advantage when piecing the sectors together. Further, the ability to left foot brake in every deceleration zone (regardless of needing to downshift or not) can be a substantial advantage.

Cheers-
smmmurf