Well....it happened....

[TOOMANYCARS]

Originally Posted by Moxie

Think it's questionable in terms of value. Especially if it gives a CEL.

Think Akrapovic would be better in terms of value, but it's an individual decision.

Doesn't the Akrapovic cost more than Fabspeed? I know it's titanium, but still, an exhaust is an exhaust. Anyway, I'm waiting for mine to come up on the dash, 1500 miles since installed, but I guess I'm prepared for it.

[TOOMANYCARS]

Happened to me today, 2000 miles since installed, and about 1200 miles since reflashed by Powerchip. Going to take care of the problem tomorrow with some fabrication.

[Robo Squirrel]

Happened again today. Same codes...

[PunjabiM3]

Originally Posted by Robo Squirrel

Happened again today. Same codes...

What does Fabspeed have to say about this?

[Robo Squirrel]

Originally Posted by PunjabiM3

What does Fabspeed have to say about this?

have not heard back from jeremy yet...i PMed him.

[dogears]

You need to turn of the rear O2 monitoring. Only way to avoid the CEL. Unfortunately....

[Singletrack]

Originally Posted by dogears

You need to turn of the rear O2 monitoring. Only way to avoid the CEL. Unfortunately....

Based on? There are at least a few people with 3k+ miles on this setup without CEL.

[Jeremy@Fabspeed]

Robo I sent you a pm. I am not sure why you keep getting the SES light. I have many guys with the same system with over #k miles and no problems. Do you hav e tune on the car?

[J08M3]

I'm at about 4k miles no issues so far.

Adding an ECU tune might possibly affect this? My ECU is stock so I can't answer that, but I do know people who have messed with their ECU and have this setup and now have a CEL light.

[Robo Squirrel]

Originally Posted by J08M3

I'm at about 4k miles no issues so far.

Adding an ECU tune might possibly affect this? My ECU is stock so I can't answer that, but I do know people who have messed with their ECU and have this setup and now have a CEL light.

i dont have an ECU tune. Jermey is sending me some bung extenders to see if it fixes the problem.

[J08M3]

Originally Posted by Robo Squirrel

i dont have an ECU tune. Jermey is sending me some bung extenders to see if it fixes the problem.

I've heard of this solution before. Some have even recommended it with the akrapovic system Lambda adapters to avoid CEL. Not sure if anyone's had any success with it though.

[Ben335]

Originally Posted by J08M3

I've heard of this solution before. Some have even recommended it with the akrapovic system Lambda adapters to avoid CEL. Not sure if anyone's had any success with it though.

The idea behind it is to raise the sensor just slightly out of the exhaust flow so it is fooled like the gases are flowing like stock......Supposed to trick the ECU into not throwing a CEL.

[Robo Squirrel]

we will see how the adapters work, but it threw the code again this morning...so something is up

[Lemans_Blue_M]

Originally Posted by Robo Squirrel

we will see how the adapters work, but it threw the code again this morning...so something is up

Yea the adapters are long shot, but let us know if this corrects your CEL problem.

These exhaust gas stream 'gimmicks' are a crap shoot to be honest.

Some cars will code, while others won't. Sometimes you can change the outcome, but sometimes the car will refuse to co-operate no matter what you try.

I think it's foolish for Fab Speed to market this setup as a solution that will not code.

It's a ridiculous claim that they simply cannot guarantee to an absolute certainty.

Robo Squirrel's experience is neither isolated or unique in regards to the Fab Speed high-flow cats. (fact)

Now don't get me wrong...I actually think Fab Speed makes an excellent product.

But the marketing claim is a bit too presumptuous in my opinion.

And the fact that Fab Speed has consistantly dodged the question of CEL codes here on the forum...doesn't help the situation either.

Right now it's closer to: "The HFC X-pipe setup that is less likely to code."

When 100% of their HFC setups are functioning code free, then I can get on board with the whole "does not throw a CEL" bandwagon.

Until then, that claim is a bit misleading to the potential customers who are interested in buying their products.

[Robo Squirrel]

Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M

Yea the adapters are long shot, but let us know if this corrects your CEL problem.

These exhaust gas stream 'gimmicks' are a crap shoot to be honest.

Some cars will code, while others won't. Sometimes you can change the outcome, but sometimes the car will refuse to co-operate no matter what you try.

I think it's foolish for Fab Speed to market this setup as a solution that will not code.

It's a ridiculous claim that they simply cannot guarantee to an absolute certainty.

Robo Squirrel's experience is neither isolated or unique in regards to the Fab Speed high-flow cats. (fact)

Now don't get me wrong...I actually think Fab Speed makes an excellent product.

But the marketing claim is a bit too presumptuous in my opinion.

And the fact that Fab Speed has consistantly dodged the question of CEL codes here on the forum...doesn't help the situation either.

Right now it's closer to: "The HFC X-pipe setup that is less likely to code."

When 100% of their HFC setups are functioning code free, then I can get on board with the whole "does not throw a CEL" bandwagon.

Until then, that claim is a bit misleading to the potential customers who are interested in buying their products.

we shall see how this pans out before i comment on ur post LeMans

[PunjabiM3]

Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M

Yea the adapters are long shot, but let us know if this corrects your CEL problem.

These exhaust gas stream 'gimmicks' are a crap shoot to be honest.

Some cars will code, while others won't. Sometimes you can change the outcome, but sometimes the car will refuse to co-operate no matter what you try.

I think it's foolish for Fab Speed to market this setup as a solution that will not code.

It's a ridiculous claim that they simply cannot guarantee to an absolute certainty.

Robo Squirrel's experience is neither isolated or unique in regards to the Fab Speed high-flow cats. (fact)

Now don't get me wrong...I actually think Fab Speed makes an excellent product.

But the marketing claim is a bit too presumptuous in my opinion.

And the fact that Fab Speed has consistantly dodged the question of CEL codes here on the forum...doesn't help the situation either.

Right now it's closer to: "The HFC X-pipe setup that is less likely to code."

When 100% of their HFC setups are functioning code free, then I can get on board with the whole "does not throw a CEL" bandwagon.

Until then, that claim is a bit misleading to the potential customers who are interested in buying their products.

You make a very valid point and I for one will be quite upset if I do end up getting a CEL (knock on wood). I think Fabspeed should offer a refund for those that have their setup, get a CEL, and no longer wish to deal with the headaches by keeping the product. Just my 0.02. At the same time I have been very pleased with the Fabspeed HFC's and resonated x-pipe. Just hope it does not cause any future issues...

[Singletrack]

Add me to the list. I won't have a chance to pull (and clear) the codes until tonight, but I just got "Increased Emissions". I haven't been keeping track of the mileage, but I would say it has been anywhere from 1500-2500 miles since I had the Fabspeed HFCs/x-pipe installed. I did just install an Akrapovic rear slip-on last week. Perhaps the increased flow somehow caused the issue? Perhaps it just took this long to show up?

I drive about 50miles a day, combo of back roads and highway. I always let the car fully heat up before pushing the engine. I do not let the car warm up at idle much; I just drive off at a very low engine speed down my street. The CEL came on after about 15 mins (5 mins backroads, 10 mins highway) of driving while I was cruising on the highway at a constant speed. I typically use the normal or sport throttle setting, but today I was using the comfort - no idea if this is somehow related, but I highly doubt it. The ambient temp has obviously dropped down to about 45-55F recently; it was about 48F at the time.

Does the ECU have some kind of long term fuel trim value that it is consulting to trigger the CEL? I heard someone mention that it is simply an issue around what is read pre/post cat. If that were the case, then why would various people be hitting this after accumulating thousands of miles? I'm just trying to understand.

I'll pull the codes tonight and report back. I'll also update that other thread with the data. Once I have the codes, I'll give Fabspeed a call to see what they want to do. I do not want to get in a situation where I am resetting this all the time. I drive a lot of miles (18k in a year), so that is a strong possibility. Also, it will bother me not knowing if there is some other emissions related issue and I just think that the CEL is from the exhaust. In other words, I still need the ability to identify other failures that might cause increased emissions.

[Wanted_M]

Originally Posted by Singletrack

Does the ECU have some kind of long term fuel trim value that it is consulting to trigger the CEL? I heard someone mention that it is simply an issue around what is read pre/post cat. If that were the case, then why would various people be hitting this after accumulating thousands of miles? I'm just trying to understand.

I'll pull the codes tonight and report back. I'll also update that other thread with the data. Once I have the codes, I'll give Fabspeed a call to see what they want to do. I do not want to get in a situation where I am resetting this all the time. I drive a lot of miles (18k in a year), so that is a strong possibility. Also, it will bother me not knowing if there is some other emissions related issue and I just think that the CEL is from the exhaust. In other words, I still need the ability to identify other failures that might caused increased emissions.

If my memory serves me, the short/long term fuel trim CEL it's triggered by the MAF seeing a deveation from your stock air/fuel curve.
The stock ECU tries to learn and compensate the new air flow and tries to trim a certain %.

If by a certain time the correction factor is not brought back to the desired curve or %, it will trigger a CEL which means tuning (including the re-scaling of your MAF), going back to a stock cat or installing a spacer on the rear O2 sensor.

On my last car, I installed a spacer on the rear O2 sensor (due to no cats) and it worked, no more CEL.

Question to Fabspeed;
If we decide to turn off the rear O2 sensor, will CA cars dispaly a "READY" or "NOT READY STATUS"?

Thanks

[Singletrack]

Originally Posted by Wanted_M

If my memory serves me, the short/long term fuel trim CEL it's triggered by the MAF seeing a deveation from your stock air/fuel curve.
The stock ECU tries to learn and compensate the new air flow and tries to trim a certain %.

If by a certain time the correction factor is not brought back to the desired curve or %, it will trigger a CEL which means tuning (including the re-scaling of your MAF), going back to a stock cat or installing a spacer on the rear O2 sensor.

On my last car, I installed a spacer on the rear O2 sensor (due to no cats) and it worked, no more CEL.

Question to Fabspeed;
If we decide to turn off the rear O2 sensor, will CA cars dispaly a "READY" or "NOT READY STATUS"?

Thanks

This car doesn't have a MAF : )

Robo is trying the spacer - we'll see if that works.

[Lemans_Blue_M]

Originally Posted by Wanted_M

If my memory serves me, the short/long term fuel trim CEL it's triggered by the MAF seeing a deveation from your stock air/fuel curve.
The stock ECU tries to learn and compensate the new air flow and tries to trim a certain %.

If by a certain time the correction factor is not brought back to the desired curve or %, it will trigger a CEL which means tuning (including the re-scaling of your MAF), going back to a stock cat or installing a spacer on the rear O2 sensor.

On my last car, I installed a spacer on the rear O2 sensor (due to no cats) and it worked, no more CEL.

Question to Fabspeed;
If we decide to turn off the rear O2 sensor, will CA cars dispaly a "READY" or "NOT READY STATUS"?

Thanks

That's nice theory but it's not the reason this car throws a CEL.

There are a few incorrect assumptions in your post.

a) The S65B40 M3 engine does not use a conventional MAF to gauge the incoming air flow.

b) The oxygen levels of the exhaust gas stream, will trigger a CEL if the post cat 02 sensor readings are too far outside the pre-determined software parameters. Pre-cat & post cat differential values are closely monitored by the factory ECU, and these levels are restricted to meet EPA vehicle standards for C0 emissions compliance.

That is what triggers the "Increased Emissions" CEL that nearly everyone with an aftermarket x-pipe is getting.

The ECU does not (and cannot) 'adapt' to accommodate the increased exhaust gas flow for an aftermarket mid-pipe. (on it's own) The EPA C02 requirements (for every car sold in the U.S. market) is FIXED to pass their emissions testing during the initial certification process when the car is first submitted by the auto manufacturer. (foreign or domestic)

Unlike the AFR's (air-to-fuel ratio), the ECU cannot compensate for an increased exhaust gas stream due to these restrictions. If the manufacturer does this, they would in effect be bypassing (or altering) the effective C0 emissions that the car is emitting from the rear tailpipe.

That is a HUGE no-no as far as the EPA is concerned, so this value must be fixed (to a pre-set maximum limit), and no allowances can be made within the factory programming to circumvent this rule.

Not that anyone cares but...

It's 'technically' a violation of Federal Law to tamper with the emmisions equipment on any car sold in the United States. Tampering with, or removing the OE catylitc convertors is covered under these guidelines.

BTW: When you turn off (disable) the rear post-cat sensors via aftermarket programming...your car is in effect NOT ready. (i.e. - you will fail inspection)

Your car cannot have any CEL lights or CEL codes stored in memory if you intend to pass state emissions testing.

[Wanted_M]

Awesome, thanks for the clarification.

[Singletrack]

Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M

b) The oxygen levels of the exhaust gas stream, will trigger a CEL if the post cat 02 sensor readings are too far outside the pre-determined software parameters. Pre-cat & post cat differential values are closely monitored by the factory ECU, and these levels are restricted to meet EPA vehicle standards for C02 emissions compliance.

That is what triggers the "Increased Emissions" CEL that nearly everyone with an aftermarket x-pipe is getting.

At any point in time? It seems like it has to be storing some kind of history of O2 readings. Otherwise, why wouldn't the Akrapovic setup trigger the CEL immediately? Most people say it takes 50-200miles before it shows up - just as an example.

Thanks for chiming in...