DCT issue on the track?

[enigma]

Originally Posted by Gearhead999s

I am very agressive on track and I never had the issue of the clutch opening up to reduce rear wheel drag even in the winter.

I only got it to happen in 1st under autocross conditions. Never saw it on the track.

[enigma]

BTW: My favorite complaint was from an E30 guy who was convinced that DSC would kick in on the track and cause the car to spin out of control because it would hit the brakes mid corner.

There may be an issue with DCT, its not fundamental with the design. Rembere the basic technology was developed for race car use. It worked very well there. If there are sw issues they will get worked out just like they did on the older systems.

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by enigma

BTW: My favorite complaint was from an E30 guy who was convinced that DSC would kick in on the track and cause the car to spin out of control because it would hit the brakes mid corner.

There may be an issue with DCT, its not fundamental with the design. Rembere the basic technology was developed for race car use. It worked very well there. If there are sw issues they will get worked out just like they did on the older systems.

True that!

[footie]

Originally Posted by enigma

There may be an issue with DCT, its not fundamental with the design. Rembere the basic technology was developed for race car use. It worked very well there. If there are sw issues they will get worked out just like they did on the older systems.

Correct, it was developed for racing by none other than Audi. (Sorry, couldn't resist)

I believe that BMW have in mind a different purpose for DCT than VAG did for their DSG back then. Like Gearhead999s said the DSG box had it's limitations on the track but was on the whole super on the road, a bit like Audi cars. BMW may have design the M-DCT to make better use of the track but I still feel that there will be built-in safe guards there to protect the gearbox from misuse which if true you can't really blame BMW for.

[enigma]

Originally Posted by footie

Like Gearhead999s said the DSG box had it's limitations on the track but was on the whole super on the road, a bit like Audi cars. BMW may have design the M-DCT to make better use of the track but I still feel that there will be built-in safe guards there to protect the gearbox from misuse which if true you can't really blame BMW for.

Downshifting under braking is misuse, really? At times I seriously wonder if you have ever driven agressivly on a track because your notions are out there.

[ArtPE]

Borg Warner or Getrag invented the technology, noy Audi or Porsche, they ust used it first...

afaik no mfgs actually make transmissions: Borg, Getrag, ZF, etc.

if the torque differential is too large, and would lock the wheels up, depending on mode, it will not allow the shift until the torque decreases

[footie]

Originally Posted by enigma

Downshifting under braking is misuse, really? At times I seriously wonder if you have ever driven agressivly on a track because your notions are out there.

Stop taking statements out of context. Misuse can mean anything but their possible safe guards to protect against it may also affect what one does on track as well.

enigma, at times I think you jump before fully think what has been said.

[footie]

Originally Posted by ArtPE

Borg Warner or Getrag invented the technology, noy Audi or Porsche, they ust used it first...

afaik no mfgs actually make transmissions: Borg, Getrag, ZF, etc.

if the torque differential is too large, and would lock the wheels up, depending on mode, it will not allow the shift until the torque decreases

I think you are mislead in thinking this, Porsche and Audi developed the technology in the seventy but used Borg to develop it for production use, and even then their development, be it DSG, DCT or M-DCT have all been co-developed by their respective car companies. Do not think for one moment that Audi, Nissan or BMW said to Borg and Getrag, "go away a build us a new gearbox", they is input from both sides.

[ArtPE]

Originally Posted by footie

I think you are mislead in thinking this, Porsche and Audi developed the technology in the seventy but used Borg to develop it for production use, and even then their development, be it DSG, DCT or M-DCT have all been co-developed by their respective car companies. Do not think for one moment that Audi, Nissan or BMW said to Borg and Getrag, "go away a build us a new gearbox", they is input from both sides.

that's EXACTLY how it is...the gear box makers develop something and market it to mfgs...that's why the same exact tranny is used in many different cars...

the dct was actually developed in the 40's...but technology wasn't advanced enough to make it work...

[footie]

Originally Posted by ArtPE

that's EXACTLY how it is...the gear box makers develop something and market it to mfgs...that's why the same exact tranny is used in many different cars...

the dct was actually developed in the 40's...but technology wasn't advanced enough to make it work...

Actually no two DCT gearboxes to date are the same, just thought I would share that one with you.

Please show me the details of the 1940s DCT gearbox becasue the only evidence I know about is the Audi S1 rally car, but that is not to said that it was indeed the first.

[ArtPE]

Originally Posted by footie

Actually no two DCT gearboxes to date are the same, just thought I would share that one with you.

Please show me the details of the 1940s DCT gearbox becasue the only evidence I know about is the Audi S1 rally car, but that is not to said that it was indeed the first.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getrag

This type of gearbox was invented by Andolphe Kégresse just before the outbreak of World War II, but he never developed a working model.

the same trannies are used in multiple applications...
ratios may change along with software, same device though...
http://www.getrag.de/en/216.1?_searc..._=0&_offset_=0

[footie]

Originally Posted by ArtPE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getrag

This type of gearbox was invented by Andolphe Kégresse just before the outbreak of World War II, but he never developed a working model.

the same trannies are used in multiple applications...
ratios may change along with software, same device though...
http://www.getrag.de/en/216.1?_searc..._=0&_offset_=0

Ah I see, so what you are saying is that the idea of a dual clutch gearbox was thought of back at the start of the war but it took another thirty plus years before that dream was finally realised.

I sincerely hope the writers of Startrek get the credit for warp-drive.

P.S.
Audi's new DSG for the A4 and up has been developed solely in-house. Someone is clearly manufacturing it but Audi can solely take the credit for the design.

[ArtPE]

Originally Posted by footie

Ah I see, so what you are saying is that the idea of a dual clutch gearbox was thought of back at the start of the war but it took another thirty plus years before that dream was finally realised.

I sincerely hope the writers of Startrek get the credit for warp-drive.

P.S.
Audi's new DSG for the A4 and up has been developed solely in-house. Someone is clearly manufacturing it but Audi can solely take the credit for the design.

Boolean logic was developed in the 30's iirc, but computers could not have been developed without it, much like mechanics, electro-magnetism, etc.

the breakthrough is the science, not the application...

the fact is the concept was developed and patented in the 30's, along with a working model...

as far as Audi's tranny, Getrag (or someone else) may have a thing or two to say about it...
it appears to be the same unit as the M-DCT, ust a different output configuration

the exact same tranny is used in many cars, wasn't the vette tranny the same as the e46's M3?

DCT's are new, but soon you will see the exact same tranny in a gtr and a chrysler...

[03SG///M3]

I would be perfectly happy if they put SMG III in the E92 M3....not to say the M-DCT isn't better but if there are limitations with heavy track use.

[footie]

Originally Posted by ArtPE

Boolean logic was developed in the 30's iirc, but computers could not have been developed without it, much like mechanics, electro-magnetism, etc.

the breakthrough is the science, not the application...

the fact is the concept was developed and patented in the 30's, along with a working model...

as far as Audi's tranny, Getrag (or someone else) may have a thing or two to say about it...
it appears to be the same unit as the M-DCT, ust a different output configuration

the exact same tranny is used in many cars, wasn't the vette tranny the same as the e46's M3?

DCT's are new, but soon you will see the exact same tranny in a gtr and a chrysler...

Great thinker mould the future and engineers make it happen. One can't work without the other.

[enigma]

Originally Posted by footie

Stop taking statements out of context. Misuse can mean anything but their possible safe guards to protect against it may also affect what one does on track as well.

enigma, at times I think you jump before fully think what has been said.

The thread was about a problem downshifting within the allowed RPM range of the engine while threashold braking. You then reply by implying the gearbox is protecting itself from "misuse" That implies that this origional topic is misuse, which it clearly is not.

Originally Posted by 03SG///M3

I would be perfectly happy if they put SMG III in the E92 M3....not to say the M-DCT isn't better but if there are limitations with heavy track use.

Don't let footie and the 6mt club get to you. Like anything new it takes a little time to fully figure it out. Yes there could be an issue but there is no need to jump to conclusions.

Footie likes to chime into every DCT thread and tell us how awesome Audi is and how BMW screwed up since they didn't make an exact copy of the Audi system. You will find many of the scientific types on here are at odds with footie. Its a facts vs faith type thing.

[swamp2]

I do have a related update but not a required 2nd data point.

As embarrassing as it is I have not got my car on the track yet nor even pushed it really hard through some twisties so I can not verify the direct topic at hand. Been working way too much... (all the time). One thing I can confirm is that when NOT braking the car will allow downshifts right up to redline. I did this in multiple gears and got downshifts that put the car north of 8000 rpm. I did not try it in a bunch of different modes but in S4 it worked perfect and of course was still nice and smooth - just like always. This was asked in another thread and I can confirm that as long as the shift does not exceed redline you can definitely get the shift to occur. No differences, no drama.

Also in light of any other direct evidence let me also quote the BMW DCT "technical press release" on this subject. It is addressed directly and clearly. What is says is not the the shift will be over ridden, but that the clutch rate is actively managed to prevent loss of rear wheel traction.

When shifting down the M double-clutch transmission works according to exactly the same principle. The only difference is that the electronic transmission control makes the process of engaging the clutch smoother and softer to prevent the rear wheels from being slowed down suddenly and with too great an effect. Should the electronic control unit – for example when the driver is driving the car in an extremely sporting style or applying the brakes hard – recognise a very large gap in engine speed when changing gears, it will automatically adjust the transition of torque to the speed of the engine. This process of giving gas in between gears serves to further enhance the car’s driving stability and makes the entire driving experience even more intense. The drag force exerted by the engine comes out only to the extent desired by the driver, remaining within the limits already well known from cars with a manual gearbox.

I should also ask the question of mode specificity. Could the OP verify which transmission Drivelogic mode was being used when this happened? It may be it occurs in low modes but not high ones.

Let me also concur with enigma: Footie: You are clearly and indubitably a M-DCT DEBBIE DOWNER. There is no if ands or butts about it. Do recall based on some poor assumption after seeing an early video you claimed BMW totally f%^&*@# the M-DCT.

[footie]

enimga & swampie,

So commenting on the possibility that BMW may have placed safe guards to protect it damage is me, what do you call it, being a DEBBIE DOWNER.

One comment on a disagreement on the surge and now I'm a downer on all things that M-DCT stands for, guys I'm a realist so get real. If you (swamp) are correct and it will be just as good on the track as a manual and will allow just as much control then that is great. Though I personally won't be tracking my DCT M3 that doesn't not mean that I would disapprove of others doing it.

I would love to know if Gearhead999s feels that my comments were so dismissive of the gearbox as he too had concerns based on the OP's comments as did I. Also remember that I did say my comments were based on assumptions and not experience of M-DCT either on the road or track, but maybe you forgot that small inclusion of mine.

I feel the difference between myself and some of you others is that I don't believe hype just because it's in a press release. Like Gearhead999s I have sampled DSG on the track and knew of it's limitations which have made me a little more sceptical than you.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by footie

enimga & swampie,

So commenting on the possibility that BMW may have placed safe guards to protect it damage is me, what do you call it, being a DEBBIE DOWNER.

One comment on a disagreement on the surge and now I'm a downer on all things that M-DCT stands for, guys I'm a realist so get real. If you (swamp) are correct and it will be just as good on the track as a manual and will allow just as much control then that is great. Though I personally won't be tracking my DCT M3 that doesn't not mean that I would disapprove of others doing it.

I would love to know if Gearhead999s feels that my comments were so dismissive of the gearbox as he too had concerns based on the OP's comments as did I. Also remember that I did say my comments were based on assumptions and not experience of M-DCT either on the road or track, but maybe you forgot that small inclusion of mine.

I feel the difference between myself and some of you others is that I don't believe hype just because it's in a press release. Like Gearhead999s I have sampled DSG on the track and knew of it's limitations which have made me a little more sceptical than you.

That particular example was one of about a dozen of your criticisms, gripes, tirades, bouts of negativity, pro Audi/anti BMW comments, quips, etc. directed at M-DCT. Most all of which were based on poor assumptions, odd ideas about performance driving techniques, incorrect physics, flat out mistakes, etc.

By the way "skeptical" is my middle name and you know that. BMW has a strong tradition of delivering with M cars and existing DCTs were already great. The first big technical press release was very positive and thorough (albeit a bit heavy on the marketing/fluff side) so I made a very calculated and low risk decision to purchase the M-DCT without driving it. What a great choice I made. A significant part of life centers around risk and reward.

[DJ9]

Thank got i went with MT...JOKING! Guys, i just got back from the track with my e92 MT, and the shifter/transmission was perfect, much much better than my e46M3 MT.

If DCT is supposed to be an advancement to MT, I'm sure it will be superb once everyone adjusts to the new technology.

[sayemthree]

are the DTC modes like SMG in that youcan only diaable traction control at the highest level. I am pretty sure Mark would have had the traction control off.

another wierd computer glitch, in the early e60 M5 with active steering, if you drive on a banked oval with traction control and DSC on the computer is confused and tries to drive you up in the the wall.

[DJ9]

Originally Posted by sayemthree

another wierd computer glitch, in the early e60 M5 with active steering, if you drive on a banked oval with traction control and DSC on the computer is confused and tries to drive you up in the wall.

WTF....sounds like a new definition to Launch Control