help me decide M3 v GTR

[rai]

Originally Posted by Los Angeles

Huh, what?

I'm 6'1'' and fit comfortable in the back of a G37.

The rear room is of no concern whatsoever. There's plenty.

sorry, I haven't been in the rear seat of the G37 so I was just going by the diminsions listed where the G has 4" less legroom and 2-3" less headroom than the 3-coupe. Usually when I drive my seat is 90% to 100% of the way back so maybe that's where I am thinking there is small or little legroom in the G37.

I can't say the GTR is too small in the rear seat but from the pics I have seen, I got the idea it's small like the 911s back seat.

[devo]

How can one compare two entirely different cars based on speed alone? There are far too many variables that define any car, especially a sports car.

If you want some of the best performance and speed for your dollar narrow your focus to a ZO6, Viper (yuk) or GT-R. If you want to add exclusivity -which you do- then eliminate the former two. Then, the way that I see it for you is there is only one choice. If I had to pick one, it would be the slower, more refined, more prestigious and likely more fun of your choices: the M car.

[rai]

thanks guys

I do not want to cause any trouble or flame war. This is really my decision. I like both cars and could be happy with either.

The point about the M3 v Z06 is true where the Z06 is quicker for the same cost as a M3. However when I think of the Z06 (and I drove a C5 Z06) I agree they are fun but sometimes could be hard to drive slow. Or meaning they are more fun when you are gunning it. My problem with that is being more of a daily car I don't want to be going 50 over the speed limit all the time.

I think (maybe) its possible the GTR is so fast it's east to go fast to get the feeling of speed. I have driven a 911 turbo and found the same thing, it would take 40 mph (posted) corners at 60 mph but make you feel ilke you are doing 30. Meaning while quick was not as fun as some cars.

ALSO. Test drives are fine but often I don't get comfortable in the short time they allow and with the sales person in the car it's hard to get the feel of what it's like to drive the car like I would if I owned it.

Maybe some people are able to block out the sales person and get a better feel of a car but for me it's hard.

Thanks for the ideas to think about. I am trying to read up as much from owners as well as magazine tests.

Part of the delima is the M3 is here already and the GTR is not so it'd be a longer wait for the GTR.

[gbb357]

Who ever thinks or said that BMW is trying to sell the M3 for $100k, is an idiot. It's not BMW, it's the dealers. And who ever thinks that it is okay for the M3 to sell for $100k is even a bigger moron. No matter how amazing the M3 is, it does not command that price. IT's not like it's a very limited production car. JMHO.

[rai]

I think they were talking about bmw wanting to sell 100K units meaning what 20K cars a year for 5 years.

The GTR said to be more limited less than 6000 cars worldwide per year they say even less but that's what people are saying something like 1500 GTRs to the US in it's first year.

[BMW335icDDS]

Originally Posted by swamp2

You are still comparing two cars that really do not compete. Sure they are close in price but since when has a Corvette, that will outperform an M3, and has always been priced less, be considered a real competitor to the M3? The same argument is true about the GT-R. The GT-Rs main competitors are the Z06 and 997TT.

Calling the M3 a poseur vehicle is simply outright drivel. Since when does the existence of a faster vehicle at a slightly higher price make any one vehicle a poseur vehicle? What nonsene. Again did past Vettes make the E46 M3 a poseur vehicle? This argument can be made nearly ad infinitum by having a superchanged mustang or camaro well track prepped and such cars can as well embarass many cars costing 2-3 times as much.

I agree with you that Lexus, Audi and MB have upped their games but BMW has not been sleeping. Except for few early "headline" oriented tests the M3 consistently bests all of the competitors from all of these brands. In other tests the M3 bested even the GT3 and R8 and even the holy GT-R in terms of either all around sports car or simply having a much better fun factor.

Your arguments about the chipped 335i are quite stale and ineffective as well. If all you want is a drag car why waste your money on a 335i+chip, see comments above about a supercharged camaro or mustang. The M3 is an absolute all arounder built to be an achiever in all use scenarios while excelling in the twisties, both for track times and fun factor. All the while delivering a superior build quality, european style and great longevity.

On your point about M3s being found at every dealership you are right. BMW requires dealerships to maintain a demo car. And if you did not notice, just as was the case with your beloved E46 M3, E9X M3s are flying off the lots in car crazy areas like CA, NY, FL, etc for well over sticker. Why, becuase the M brand is simply worth it to many folks.

Finally I think the percentages of folks who will track their GT-Rs is very close to the percent that will track their M3s. In general these cars both are (will be) bought for street cred, status, prestige, etc. Sure many of the buyers appreciate and will use some of their speed but most will never touch the ultimate potential of either car, track or street.

Look there is no denying that the GT-R is an incredible car. It is an absolute price to performance champion, hands down. Just because it is faster than the M3 it does not "ruin" the M3. Well if it does for you personally I guess you can feel that way but it is not universal nor fact.

Keep the misinformation and poor arguments coming... You are going to find a much more receptive audience on Nissan forums.

Well, I don't think you really understood my arguments. The GT-R IS a competitor to the M3 when the M3 starts to lose sales to it. For one, it lost mine. There are numerous other people on this forum who now put "Drives: GT-R" who were all potential M3 owners, but saw a better car for the same money. The M3 "demo cars" as you say are being sold, as none of the dealerships are using them as demo cars, or at least very few of them. You can buy a M3 for stickerprice at many places, search if you don't believe me. Also, I said for the STREET, where you can't use the M3's abilities, a chipped 335 is just as good on the street. Thats where the 335 is more comfortable, just as fast, and much more torque. My argument of the M3 of being a poseur vehicle is due to the fact that if you really wanted performance, you wouldn't have bought the M3. It is a compromise between luxury and track abilities, with BMW now shifiting the M3 more toward luxury to sell more of them. Also, the GT-R is much more of a competitor to the M3 than the vette since the vette is a 2 seater, while the GT-R has the exact same layout as the M3, 2+2 coupe Front engine and a big boot. The only difference is the AWD, which only enhances the GT-R's abilities.

Oh, and don't forget. the M in M3 is supposed to stand for motorsport. If that is the case, why shouldn't anyone compare the M3 to the best performance cars around the world, ESPECIALLY if its the exact same price as the M3? Oh thats right, the M now stands for marketing.

[devo]

Originally Posted by BMW335icDDS

Well, I don't think you really understood my arguments. The GT-R IS a competitor to the M3 when the M3 starts to lose sales to it. For one, it lost mine. There are numerous other people on this forum who now put "Drives: GT-R" who were all potential M3 owners, but saw a better car for the same money. The M3 "demo cars" as you say are being sold, as none of the dealerships are using them as demo cars, or at least very few of them. You can buy a M3 for stickerprice at many places, search if you don't believe me. Also, I said for the STREET, where you can't use the M3's abilities, a chipped 335 is just as good on the street. Thats where the 335 is more comfortable, just as fast, and much more torque. My argument of the M3 of being a poseur vehicle is due to the fact that if you really wanted performance, you wouldn't have bought the M3. It is a compromise between luxury and track abilities, with BMW now shifiting the M3 more toward luxury to sell more of them. Also, the GT-R is much more of a competitor to the M3 than the vette since the vette is a 2 seater, while the GT-R has the exact same layout as the M3, 2+2 coupe Front engine and a big boot. The only difference is the AWD, which only enhances the GT-R's abilities.

Oh, and don't forget. the M in M3 is supposed to stand for motorsport. If that is the case, why shouldn't anyone compare the M3 to the best performance cars around the world, ESPECIALLY if its the exact same price as the M3? Oh thats right, the M now stands for marketing.

Faster does not make it better! Just because some potential M3 buyers supposedly jumped ship and are going the GT-R route does not mean that it is a competitor to the M. Different cars for different puposes.

Using your rationale, a rocket strapped to a Neon would yeild a better sports car if only it handled as well.

The Nissan's major advantages are it's transmission, price and it's exclusivity. Remove any one of those and it could be a bust.

If money were not a consideration any reasonable, passionate buyer would pick a 997tt over the GT-R all day long even if the 997 was slower in most contests.

[BMW335icDDS]

Originally Posted by devo

Faster does not make it better! Just because some potential M3 buyers supposedly jumped ship and are going the GT-R route does not mean that it is a competitor to the M. Different cars for different puposes.

Using your rationale, a rocket strapped to a Neon would yeild a better sports car if only it handled as well.

The Nissan's major advantages are it's transmission, price and it's exclusivity. Remove any one of those and it could be a bust.

If money were not a consideration any reasonable, passionate buyer would pick a 997tt over the GT-R all day long even if the 997 was slower in most contests.

When you say your car is a track car (M is motorsport correct? when has anyone every won in motorsport being slower?), the car that comes in fastest DOES win. The GT-R has awesome handling and makes you feel like a super hero. The Nissan's advantages are simply its a better car. Oh, and I HAVE a 997 S. And I am already liking the GT-R more. Again, if M is for motorsport, why NOT be able to compare it to other awesome performance cars? The reason why people don't like comparing the GT-R to the M3 is that the only way to defend the M3 is to say subjective things like the M3 is better looking or that it has a better badge. Because objectively, the GT-R crushes the M3 in just about every measurement.

[rai]

Originally Posted by devo

If money were not a consideration any reasonable, passionate buyer would pick a 997tt over the GT-R all day long even if the 997 was slower in most contests.

Not sure about that.

however what does that mean? Is Porsche going to sell a new 911 turbo for $70K and if they do won't that be bad-bad for the M3s more than anything?

[devo]

Originally Posted by BMW335icDDS

When you say your car is a track car (M is motorsport correct? when has anyone every won in motorsport being slower?), the car that comes in fastest DOES win. The GT-R has awesome handling and makes you feel like a super hero. The Nissan's advantages are simply its a better car. Oh, and I HAVE a 997 S. And I am already liking the GT-R more. Again, if M is for motorsport, why NOT be able to compare it to other awesome performance cars? The reason why people don't like comparing the GT-R to the M3 is that the only way to defend the M3 is to say subjective things like the M3 is better looking or that it has a better badge. Because objectively, the GT-R crushes the M3 in just about every measurement.

Objectively, the GT-R crushes the M. Emotionally, not so much.

[devo]

Originally Posted by rai

Not sure about that.

however what does that mean? Is Porsche going to sell a new 911 turbo for $70K and if they do won't that be bad-bad for the M3s more than anything?

It means that you get what you pay for.

[BMW335icDDS]

Originally Posted by devo

Objectively, the GT-R crushes the M. Emotionally, not so much.

Again, all you can say is a SUBJECTIVE thing. To me, the GT-R is emotionally more mesmorizing than the M3. I also find the GT-R to be better looking.

[DC52E55]

Originally Posted by BMW335icDDS

Again, all you can say is a SUBJECTIVE thing. To me, the GT-R is emotionally more mesmorizing than the M3. I also find the GT-R to be better looking.

IMHO, GTR is pretty ugly, but then when was the last time you see a beast that looks pretty? I like it that way.

[BMW335icDDS]

Originally Posted by DC52E55

IMHO, GTR is pretty ugly, but then when was the last time you see a beast that looks pretty? I like it that way.

Well, I like it cause its so bad-ass. Its not a pretty boy like the M3.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by gbb357

Who ever thinks or said that BMW is trying to sell the M3 for $100k, is an idiot. It's not BMW, it's the dealers. And who ever thinks that it is okay for the M3 to sell for $100k is even a bigger moron. No matter how amazing the M3 is, it does not command that price. IT's not like it's a very limited production car. JMHO.

Although I have seen a sticker with a markup very close to $100k I certainly agree that is utter nonsense. The point here was quantity not price, i.e. 100k cars in total number sold over its lifespan, not the price!

[BMW335icDDS]

Originally Posted by nc72689

Ok...I am actually kind of going through the same thing as you, and here is what I can give you!!! If you want class, look, decent performance, and a car that girls like...then M3!!! If you want not bad looking, and a car that will beat everyone on the street...then GTR! GTR is the best performance car you can get right now...I mean it can beat GT3 (180,000), F430 (180,000), and Gallardo (180,000)...and for just only around 80,000!!! M3 seems kind of expensive to me, but GTR...seems pretty cheap if you do not care that it is a Nissan car. I am pretty sure you can find a GTR with MSRP, just look for more places. Just walk in and say I want a GTR now and if you give me MSRP I will buy it right now!!! xD I am pretty sure someone will tell you ok!!!

If you find a dealer that will do MSRP, please let me know! I'm on a long waitlist and waiting until the price is MSRP, but to my knowledge I think that will take at least 1-2 years... especially since it is so limited.

[Krueger///M3]

Gosh, just because the GTR is faster doesn't make it better. No flames, but the M3 is european and looks a lot better.(I am on a GTR waiting list, lottery for a name pull, and I think the car is awesome). Dont bash the M3, like I've said before, the M3 has never before been able to compete with such great supercars like the GTR, GT3 and so on, now it is, contrats to the M3. The only difference is with the GTR this time around is that Nissan decided to engineer it for the US too. I agree with Devo who is getting a GTR and a M3 and Swamp

[rai]

Originally Posted by nc72689

Ok...I am actually kind of going through the same thing as you!!!

couple of dealers in my area said +$20K which is crazy to me since I won't pay it. But then I said f-that if it's $95K what else can I get and looked for a minute at the 911S adds up to $97K in a jiff and that's a car that's been around for 3 years already so the GTR even tho I won't pay $97K for IMO is on par with most 911s. I recall Porsche is making profits of $20K per car so somewhere in there has to be a big built in mark-up even if it's not said out loud we're charging +$20K like the Nissan dealers are.

I think I can live with +$5K (I have a dealer willing).

I think if I didn't want the DCT option with the M3 I'd be more set on the M3 but adding the price of that option plus the fact it's later release will make the M3 come later in the year maybe similar to a GTR which is also a later in the year car.

[rai]

Originally Posted by Krueger///M3

Gosh, just because the GTR is faster doesn't make it better. No flames, but the M3 is european and looks a lot better

the M3 has never before been able to compete with such great supercars like the GTR, GT3 and so on, now it is, contrats to the M3. The only difference is with the GTR this time around is that Nissan decided to engineer it for the US too.

I agree with Devo who is getting a GTR and a M3

some people (some) don't feel the M3 is better looking at all. There is not like everyone will agree on this. Like my gosh it's not a Aston Vantage or anything. It's somewhat bulging bangalized small sedan or coupe.

I don't know about the GTRs interior level (leather etc.) or it's sound system may not be as good as the premium sound M3. But the running stuff (tranny, diffs, brakes, wheels, etc.) maybe better than the M3. It's got a flat underbody pannel like a race car (F430 has also).

See this is what I think it's boiling down to if I said M3 or GT3 most people would say if you can afford the GT3 that's the better car. (I think there is little debate) or maybe 911 turbo v M3 (people would say the turbo is better for a lot higher cost).

But when people see the GTR just costs $7K (ish) more than a M3 they can't say the price anymore so they say it's a Nissan or it's not european etc..

I agree also, I'd like to get both. If I was single or didn't want an early retirement it'd be easy to get a M3 now and get a GTR in 18 months or after the supply is higher. But for me it's one or the other meaning one great car and probably will never get the other car so I am pondering it daily.

BTW I don't want to sound like I don't love the M3 it's great and if not for the cost going up (with options) to $70K which is right there with a GTR there would not be a doubt. However bmw forced me to pick technology pack (to get m-button and CA) and I figure once I'm at technology I should get the premium sound (also BMW cripples the base sound lesser than a 335 which is a much cheaper car. I mean p-off BMW at least offer premium sound without having to technology first. etc.) BMW makes great car with great price (base) but with $12K in options not so great as could be.

[devo]

Originally Posted by nc72689

Ok...I am actually kind of going through the same thing as you, and here is what I can give you!!! If you want class, look, decent performance, and a car that girls like...then M3!!! If you want not bad looking, and a car that will beat everyone on the street...then GTR! GTR is the best performance car you can get right now...I mean it can beat GT3 (180,000), F430 (180,000), and Gallardo (180,000)...and for just only around 80,000!!! M3 seems kind of expensive to me, but GTR...seems pretty cheap if you do not care that it is a Nissan car. I am pretty sure you can find a GTR with MSRP, just look for more places. Just walk in and say I want a GTR now and if you give me MSRP I will buy it right now!!! xD I am pretty sure someone will tell you ok!!!

Getting a GT-R for MSRP is obviously not impossible, but it very unlikely if you expect to get one this year. Nissan is only producing cars in 2008 as MY2009s in March and April 2008 for June and July deliveries. Demand will dictate how many they will produce in subsequent years.

The GT-R forums and media indicate that some cars have been pre-sold at MSRP, however, they certainly are not the majority. I have heard of many actually selling for $20k over.

So, I do not really think one would have too much luck getting a car at your price so easily. Of course, mine will be here in June/July and, although, I do not intend on selling it in the near term, the right price can take it away .

[rai]

it's tempting to me to get a M3 first and get a GTR at msrp in a few years. If I got a M3 now it'd be easier to wait 2+ years on the GTR.

In that case maybe it'd be better to get a lower cost M3 such as low option car (ie. $60K-ish) do without the technology, premium sound, DCT (further if I went with a sedan) I could shave $10K off my cost.

[M-Maika]

If i were you i would go for the M3.
-Less waiting time.
-More beautiful
-Can take 2 extra passengers
-Cheaper
-Good performance

bs the other car is just a nissan ( what a crap of brand )
Shore they are japanese and they know what they are doing, but it´s a Nissan.

My 2 cents