BMW adds 5w30 to M engines oil list

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by aus

Cool find, but that's not the oil you want for our cars.




When did this happen?
Is there a link on the BMW site about this?

Thanks.
.

there was a thread in the news section and on m3post about switching to 10k miles......sadly its only for the newer turbo engines.

[///M Power-Belgium]

I would say...check this out >>>http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=898076

[sensi09]

Originally Posted by aus

When did this happen?
Is there a link on the BMW site about this?

Thanks.
.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=867220

[sensi09]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

It stayed at 5W30 for many years up until ~2008-9 when people starting complaining loudly to BMW about rod bearing wear issues with high mileage motors.

What was the thinking behind 10w60 being better for bearing wear?

[sensi09]

Originally Posted by flipmeraz

How about this one???? Pennzoil Ultra

Very good oil, but no longer readily available in the US I believe. Also thought to be or is the same as Shell helix.

After you pick an oil weight, as long as a major brand is used, I don't think it matters much. Castrol makes a great product, but just how shell sponsors ferrari and gets their recommendation, castrol sponsors BMW and thus garners that recommendation.

[flipmeraz]

Originally Posted by sensi09

Very good oil, but no longer readily available in the US I believe. Also thought to be or is the same as Shell helix.

After you pick an oil weight, as long as a major brand is used, I don't think it matters much. Castrol makes a great product, but just how shell sponsors ferrari and gets their recommendation, castrol sponsors BMW and thus garners that recommendation.

Thanks. I can get this at work for free so I might give it a shot.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by sensi09

What was the thinking behind 10w60 being better for bearing wear?

The S62 doesn't have the tight bearing clearance issues of the other M motors discussed herein; hence a higher viscosity oil results in a thicker film in a hydrodynamic bearing like a rod bearing. This works fine unless you get into a situation discussed here where clearances are too tight.

[PandaM3]

Been looking at what the interwebz (bob is the oil guy/ rennlist/ etc)has to say about the different oil options vs the OE Castrol TWS 10w60

What I found about TWS 10w60 is
- has a high ester content... probably leads to its high film strength which will keep metal parts like the rod bearings from touching each outer
- after 1000 to several thousand miles it shears down to a 40 or 50 weight... so frequent 5,000 mile oil change intervals with this oil may actually do more harm than good
- a 60 weight oil is good for things like long oil change intervals or endurance races because throughout the course of the race/ miles fuel dilution will cause it to shear down to a 40 or 50 weight
- it has very good cold flow properties as well (just as good as the lighter weights such as 0w40 and 5w40) which is probably important to keep the rod bearings from wearing with cold starts

So TWS 10w60 may be a good all around oil as long as
1) you follow a very conservative cold start procedure meaning no revs over 3000 rpm, no lugging the motor in a higher gear, drive like a grandma not just until the rpm gauge moves itself to the proper redline... but until the oil timer light comes on for the oil level (remember the oil level timer does not come on until it is at proper temperature)... this takes me about 10 to 15 minutes of my morning commute for this to happen
2) once the oil is up to temp... drive it reasonable enthusiastically/ track day... so the oil shears down to a 40 or 50 wt on its own
3) extend the oil change intervals from 5,000 miles to 7500 to 10,000 miles

I wonder how these qualities compare to Motul 300V 5w40 if I am going to do 5,000 miles intervals... I know film strength is just as strong, heat and fuel dilution isn't gonna shear the 40 wt down... just curious about the cold flow properties in the Motul

Again... I am no expert... this is just from googling the different forums on the interwebz... just trying to gather more info to make a decision on the next oil going in

[Billj747]

Originally Posted by PandaM3

Been looking at what the interwebz (bob is the oil guy/ rennlist/ etc)has to say about the different oil options vs the OE Castrol TWS 10w60

What I found about TWS 10w60 is
- has a high ester content... probably leads to its high film strength which will keep metal parts like the rod bearings from touching each outer
- after 1000 to several thousand miles it shears down to a 40 or 50 weight... so frequent 5,000 mile oil change intervals with this oil may actually do more harm than good
- a 60 weight oil is good for things like long oil change intervals or endurance races because throughout the course of the race/ miles fuel dilution will cause it to shear down to a 40 or 50 weight
- it has very good cold flow properties as well (just as good as the lighter weights such as 0w40 and 5w40) which is probably important to keep the rod bearings from wearing with cold starts

So TWS 10w60 may be a good all around oil as long as
1) you follow a very conservative cold start procedure meaning no revs over 3000 rpm, no lugging the motor in a higher gear, drive like a grandma not just until the rpm gauge moves itself to the proper redline... but until the oil timer light comes on for the oil level (remember the oil level timer does not come on until it is at proper temperature)... this takes me about 10 to 15 minutes of my morning commute for this to happen
2) once the oil is up to temp... drive it reasonable enthusiastically/ track day... so the oil shears down to a 40 or 50 wt on its own
3) extend the oil change intervals from 5,000 miles to 7500 to 10,000 miles

I wonder how these qualities compare to Motul 300V 5w40 if I am going to do 5,000 miles intervals... I know film strength is just as strong, heat and fuel dilution isn't gonna shear the 40 wt down... just curious about the cold flow properties in the Motul

Again... I am no expert... this is just from googling the different forums on the interwebz... just trying to gather more info to make a decision on the next oil going in

TWS does not have good cold flow characteristics. M1 0W40 has ~half the cold viscosity of TWS.

[PandaM3]

Originally Posted by Billj747

TWS does not have good cold flow characteristics. M1 0W40 has ~half the cold viscosity of TWS.

I got that statement from one of the oil forums... but looking at the spec sheet... I agree... cold flow is pretty bad with TWS10w60

Anyone have any idea on what spec sheet values correspond with film strength? I think that is an important value to keep the bearing metal from touching too...

[aussiem3]

Originally Posted by PandaM3

I got that statement from one of the oil forums... but looking at the spec sheet... I agree... cold flow is pretty bad with TWS10w60

Anyone have any idea on what spec sheet values correspond with film strength? I think that is an important value to keep the bearing metal from touching too...

Kawasaki had already posted the requested comparison in a different thread when we first discussed bearing issues.

[sensi09]

Originally Posted by PandaM3

I got that statement from one of the oil forums... but looking at the spec sheet... I agree... cold flow is pretty bad with TWS10w60

Anyone have any idea on what spec sheet values correspond with film strength? I think that is an important value to keep the bearing metal from touching too...

I believe in general the higher the viscosity, the greater the film strength. You can look at the viscosity of the oil, the kinematic viscosities as well as the HTHS.

I look at a high HTHS as the ability to protect at high temps, but it's also "an indicator of an engine oil's resistance to flow in the narrow confines between fast moving parts in fully warmed up engines." http://www.kewengineering.co.uk/Auto..._explained.htm

Interesting balance between the tight bearing clearances and protection at high temps.

[PandaM3]

Originally Posted by sensi09

I believe in general the higher the viscosity, the greater the film strength. You can look at the viscosity of the oil, the kinematic viscosities as well as the HTHS.

I look at a high HTHS as the ability to protect at high temps, but it's also "an indicator of an engine oil's resistance to flow in the narrow confines between fast moving parts in fully warmed up engines." http://www.kewengineering.co.uk/Auto..._explained.htm

Interesting balance between the tight bearing clearances and protection at high temps.

Castrol 10w60 has an hths of 5.2, but a viscosity kinematic at 40 degrees (cold start) of 160

Motul 300V 5w40 has hths of 4.1 and 10w40 is 4.2 with viscosity kinematic of 81 and 90 respectively

Mobil 1 0w40 has hths of 3.8 and viscosity kinematic of 75

So the castrol would seem to be best at protecting bearings if you can drive it like a grandma when cold until the temp timer on the oil level pops up which takes 10 to 15 min for me on cold socal mornings

Otoh motul 300v could be a good compromise so long as you can get it close to the same price as the castrol for 9 liters and it has much better cold start flow as well as a higher flash point

[gatorfast]

Originally Posted by aussiem3

Kawasaki had already posted the requested comparison in a different thread when we first discussed bearing issues.

It would be great if we could get a summary thread, preferably a sticky, covering oil and bearing information. There have been so many separate long threads on this spread out over the last few months that it is difficult to search and find that you are looking for.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by gatorfast

It would be great if we could get a summary thread, preferably a sticky, covering oil and bearing information. There have been so many separate long threads on this spread out over the last few months that it is difficult to search and find that you are looking for.

There are certainly some good facts abound on both the oil and bearing issue and the seem very likely to be related. However, you know what they say about opinions and a$$holes right... Opinion are obviously also abound on these topics.

[aus]

Originally Posted by swamp2

There are certainly some good facts abound on both the oil and bearing issue and the seem very likely to be related. However, you know what they say about opinions and a$$holes right... Opinion are obviously also abound on these topics.

What would you expecet from an oil thread???

[The Automotive Enthusiast]

Hmm. So for DD duties and the usual ripping it to redline and back road attacks , 5W-30 is better?

[aussiem3]

Originally Posted by sensi09

http://www.kewengineering.co.uk/Auto..._explained.htm

Interesting balance between the tight bearing clearances and protection at high temps.

Very good article and now it makes more sense. It will be self destructive for me to use anything other than TWS 10w-60 in Western Australia where the summer temperature is very high. It is also the case in most parts of Australia.

Anyone thinking of changing the oil grade in Australia, after reading the above article should think twice, and a decision to go for a thinner oil, will have subsequent consequence.

Thanks for sharing this excellent website which is a real eye-opener.

[Malek@MRF]

**CROSS POSTING FROM THE BEARING WIKI THREAD**

For those wondering on the usage of 0W-40 Mobil1 oil:

This past weekend the M3 went to WSIR Big Willow and ran multiple 30 minute sessions with no stops during the sessions lapping 1:33.xx to 1:35.xx all day. Weather was approximately 76*F.

The Oil Pressure did not vary from stock much at all, at least not an appreciable difference to be of concern, the values were still within BMW specifications of where the oil pressure should be operating.

Oil Temperatures. The temperature of the oil never exceeded 225*F (slightly past the half way point on the cluster gauge) surprisingly. Another fact to note, in a slightly cooler climate at the same track with TWS 10W-60, the car run much hotter oil temps (slightly past the 3rd marking for those who want a reference point). During cool down laps, oil temperature also lowered noticeably faster than they did with the 10W-60.

This M3 will remain on 0W-40 Mobil1 during a hotter event, and will report back once again, however I expect it to be equally impressive in less ideal ambient conditions as well.

-Malek

[atombomb33]

So, for those of us still under the free maintenance period (I just bought my 2013 in August 2013), is the consensus to buy and bring Mobil 1 0W-40 (or any oil of your choice) to the dealership?

It seems the dealers will still put the 10W-60 TWS oil into the car for the free scheduled maintenance. Or does anyone have confirmation that dealers will put in the 5W-30 Castrol oil? Or will they install the Mobil 1 0W-40 for free (and you're only out of pocket the cost of two 5 quart jugs from Walmart ~$50)???

I'm leaning towards the Mobil 1 for my next change (already had my 1,200 mile service done at the dealer with 10W-60 TWS). I can easily do the oil change myself (have done changes myself on all my other cars), but I don't want to "give up" the free maintenance since it was essentially included in the price of the car. But, I do want to make sure the bearings are protected the best they can be and anything but the 10W-60 TWS seems to be the best option.

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by Malek@MRF

**CROSS POSTING FROM THE BEARING WIKI THREAD**

For those wondering on the usage of 0W-40 Mobil1 oil:

This past weekend the M3 went to WSIR Big Willow and ran multiple 30 minute sessions with no stops during the sessions lapping 1:33.xx to 1:35.xx all day. Weather was approximately 76*F.

The Oil Pressure did not vary from stock much at all, at least not an appreciable difference to be of concern, the values were still within BMW specifications of where the oil pressure should be operating.

Oil Temperatures. The temperature of the oil never exceeded 225*F (slightly past the half way point on the cluster gauge) surprisingly. Another fact to note, in a slightly cooler climate at the same track with TWS 10W-60, the car run much hotter oil temps (slightly past the 3rd marking for those who want a reference point). During cool down laps, oil temperature also lowered noticeably faster than they did with the 10W-60.

This M3 will remain on 0W-40 Mobil1 during a hotter event, and will report back once again, however I expect it to be equally impressive in less ideal ambient conditions as well.

-Malek

Exactly as it should do, the thinner oil will shed the heat out much faster than the tws. Some will never be convinced though.

Originally Posted by atombomb33

So, for those of us still under the free maintenance period (I just bought my 2013 in August 2013), is the consensus to buy and bring Mobil 1 0W-40 (or any oil of your choice) to the dealership?

It seems the dealers will still put the 10W-60 TWS oil into the car for the free scheduled maintenance. Or does anyone have confirmation that dealers will put in the 5W-30 Castrol oil? Or will they install the Mobil 1 0W-40 for free (and you're only out of pocket the cost of two 5 quart jugs from Walmart ~$50)???

I'm leaning towards the Mobil 1 for my next change (already had my 1,200 mile service done at the dealer with 10W-60 TWS). I can easily do the oil change myself (have done changes myself on all my other cars), but I don't want to "give up" the free maintenance since it was essentially included in the price of the car. But, I do want to make sure the bearings are protected the best they can be and anything but the 10W-60 TWS seems to be the best option.

Knowing what we know now even if they only change the oil with tws I would drive it home open both drains and then fill it with the mobil 1. The filter would be new so no worries there. Because the records will show it was changed and you are using a approved oil you are not doing anything that would void the warranty. If they are going to change it every 10k I would change it myself at 5k.

[PandaM3]

No doubt Mobil 1 0w40 is a great oil and will likely be using it in my wife's VW CC with an upgrade turbo.

However is the fact that the engine is running cooler really a sign that there is less engine wear?

I would think at high rpm and with the tighter bearing clearances an oil with high tensile strength which loosely corresponds to hths would be beneficial?

Mobil 1 only has an HTHS of 3.8 which probably drops down as the oil's viscosity drops down because of heat whereas TWS 10w60 has an hths of 5.2

Or is hths not an indicator for tensile strength and the oils ability to keep metal parts from touching?