ESS VT3 - LC built engine failure in 2,000 miles

[Vic311]

I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.

[AJ@ESS]

Again, just to make this 100% clear: There is a very good reason we set the maximum boost pressure the way we do in the various kit stages. We do not leave massive amounts of safe power on the table as some people seem to think. If you increase boost over our standard settings, there will be a much greater risk of failure as Sergei has demonstrated. The fact that the bolt-on 625 kit ran for 67.000 miles with a massively overboosting 92mm pulley is actually much longer than expected.

When Sergei was getting ready for the Moscow unlimited 1 mile race on his second engine he asked me what I thought of running the 650 crank/92mm SC combo, and I specifically told him that he may get through the race but that the engine will with very high probability be damaged in a short period of time. The stock S65 simply can not take 11-12 PSI. He made his race, and the car ran for another week or two before caving in -as expected. The cost of a new engine is the price he chose to pay to run 4PSI overboost at his event.

When it comes to the VT3, it is critical that fuel delivery is monitored at all times. If any part of the new stand-alone, high capacity fuel system fails the engine will be damaged in a matter of seconds at high load. In Sergei's case with a brand new VT3 prototype setup being installed, I told him that I strongly recommend leaving the car with us for 6-8 weeks after assembly to properly test it in various conditions. He did not have time for this and forced us to deliver the car 1 day after assembly with only a few dyno pulls and a short road test in 35F, wet roads conditions on it's back. He then chose to ignore my specific instructions on not operating the car hard without O2 monitoring equipment installed. I specifically recommended the EAS gauge setup. He chose to ignore all warnings, and he denied to send us the car back when he experienced high load acceleration hesitations and a primary O2 sensor on bank 2 error code. Instead he kept driving the car without any monitoring equipment until the engine eventually had massive failure due to fuel starvation combined with high load operation.

We received the email of the engine condition yesterday from Sergei, and my initial plan was to simply have the car sent back to us in Norway as previously instructed and sleeve the block/install new pistons and go through the entire fuel system/O2 sensor system again to find the error that most likely has developed during his 2000 miles of use as the car operated and dynoed correctly before we delivered it. This is a relatively quick and easy fix that does not cost very much, however we do not and we never will give any kind of warranty on high-boost custom setups as the chance of failure is very high unless the driver is attentive and has proper measurement gauges installed. The VT3 is a race setup, and it should only be used by people who are aware of it's risks and high chance of long term problems due to the massive power delivery and the complex nature of the system. Sergei was informed over and over again of these risks, both on overboosting his previous VT2 kits as well as on the prototype VT3 setup.

Sergei's VT3 engine build, boost and software is identical to Drew's setup. The only difference that keeps Drew's still running strong is the awareness of the driver when operating such a complex and delicate beast. If an O2 sensor goes bad, back off it! If one of the fuel pumps stops working correctly, back off it! Follow these simple rules and the VT3 will live for a long time as Drew has demonstrated.

[TrevorM3]

well, OP looks like you burned yourself.


Why come on the forum and try to say you got no support? did you not know that you emailed ESS? Did you not know they would come in here and defend themselves? jeez..

[Ezio]

so after reading the ESS comments. it appears the OP falls under the typical crazy Russian that mods there cars. yolo

[SilentAttack]

Cray Cray

[dfjaws]

Seems like ESS warned you.

One engine? Bad luck.

Two engines? Coincidence maybe?

Three engines? We have a trend...

I'd go conservative for engine number 4.

[LucWerkz]

Originally Posted by dfjaws

Seems like ESS warned you.

One engine? Bad luck.

Two engines? Coincidence maybe?

Three engines? We have a trend...

I'd go conservative for engine number 4.

He should probably just keep engine #4 stock....

[satinghostrider]

holy fuck 4 engines vould probably be the cost of an M4!!!!
How ironical with the naming convention. Ha ha...

[tinman831]

Looks like OP left out a couple of details. I guess they got lost in translation.

[filinm3]

Originally Posted by AJ@ESS

Again, just to make this 100% clear: There is a very good reason we set the maximum boost pressure the way we do in the various kit stages. We do not leave massive amounts of safe power on the table as some people seem to think. If you increase boost over our standard settings, there will be a much greater risk of failure as Sergei has demonstrated. The fact that the bolt-on 625 kit ran for 67.000 miles with a massively overboosting 92mm pulley is actually much longer than expected.

When Sergei was getting ready for the Moscow unlimited 1 mile race on his second engine he asked me what I thought of running the 650 crank/92mm SC combo, and I specifically told him that he may get through the race but that the engine will with very high probability be damaged in a short period of time. The stock S65 simply can not take 11-12 PSI. He made his race, and the car ran for another week or two before caving in -as expected. The cost of a new engine is the price he chose to pay to run 4PSI overboost at his event.

When it comes to the VT3, it is critical that fuel delivery is monitored at all times. If any part of the new stand-alone, high capacity fuel system fails the engine will be damaged in a matter of seconds at high load. In Sergei's case with a brand new VT3 prototype setup being installed, I told him that I strongly recommend leaving the car with us for 6-8 weeks after assembly to properly test it in various conditions. He did not have time for this and forced us to deliver the car 1 day after assembly with only a few dyno pulls and a short road test in 35F, wet roads conditions on it's back. He then chose to ignore my specific instructions on not operating the car hard without O2 monitoring equipment installed. I specifically recommended the EAS gauge setup. He chose to ignore all warnings, and he denied to send us the car back when he experienced high load acceleration hesitations and a primary O2 sensor on bank 2 error code. Instead he kept driving the car without any monitoring equipment until the engine eventually had massive failure due to fuel starvation combined with high load operation.

We received the email of the engine condition yesterday from Sergei, and my initial plan was to simply have the car sent back to us in Norway as previously instructed and sleeve the block/install new pistons and go through the entire fuel system/O2 sensor system again to find the error that most likely has developed during his 2000 miles of use as the car operated and dynoed correctly before we delivered it. This is a relatively quick and easy fix that does not cost very much, however we do not and we never will give any kind of warranty on high-boost custom setups as the chance of failure is very high unless the driver is attentive and has proper measurement gauges installed. The VT3 is a race setup, and it should only be used by people who are aware of it's risks and high chance of long term problems due to the massive power delivery and the complex nature of the system. Sergei was informed over and over again of these risks, both on overboosting his previous VT2 kits as well as on the prototype VT3 setup.

Sergei's VT3 engine build, boost and software is identical to Drew's setup. The only difference that keeps Drew's still running strong is the awareness of the driver when operating such a complex and delicate beast. If an O2 sensor goes bad, back off it! If one of the fuel pumps stops working correctly, back off it! Follow these simple rules and the VT3 will live for a long time as Drew has demonstrated.

Asbjorn, I want to just THANK YOU for that 5 years of cooperation, but I also want to make facts clear, cause I am not and do not want to appear as stupid animal in anybody's eyes.

1. I NEVER run VT650 crank pulley plus 92mm SC pulley. NEVER!!! You provided me with 94mm SC pulley and told me that it would get me to 1 more psi (i.e. 9psi) than normal VT650 kits. What the hell Roman and you told the public I was going 11-12 psi on stock engine ignoring your recommendations?????!!!!! Just lie.

2. As for VT3, the car was 4 months at your disposal and the project costed $30,000 for me (incl. transportation costs). You tell me the car is ready and I could come. I came and started breaking in driving procedure. That's it - the car failured during first breaking in kilometeres.

3. Why I should pay for somebody's mistake in ESS team????

4. You are talking about O2 sensor and that I drove with that code???? NO, I changed it the very next day!!! But per the fotos attached all that changes were already tooo late and the problem appeared way earlier....

5. You are talking that even after the problems were detected I did not follow ESS recommnedations and did not send the car back to Norway for investigation? This is also lie, cause you recommend me to change sparks, coils and FPR and if the problem still in send the car to you? Yes? I did that, but the compression was already 8.8 by this time... I found the trailer, even it will cost me another $5K to get the car to Norway, but we agreed with Hans (your were silent for 2 weeks on my mails) to get it inspected in Moscow by letting off the heads and afterwards to make a conclusion... But for 10 days already Hans was aware that the compression is 5 and the car is not working, and he promissed to discuss that with you and get back by 27 December... What I wrote you 2 days ago is just fotos the guys sent me from full inspection.

6. You are talking about the necessity of special gauges? No problems, I asked you in summer to install them while building the car in Norway... What you told me? "NO, we could not install them in Norway, please do it yourself the come to Russia"... And I did that, but it was too late...

7. You recommend me Awron gauge???? No, this is what I found by myself searching forums, cause you did not recomment me anything, and only after I specifically wrote you what I found, you told me: "Good, this is what I have"... WHY you did not tell your guys to install any gauges if they are SO IMPORTANT and why you try to make me look so stupid?????

8. I paid for the build which was eventually done with some systematic mistake. But you wrote me even month ago that ALL problems of any kind would be my problems even the car was fully built by ESS... This is quite unfair to the customer who spent $30K for the product which was broken in a month.

And after ALL you just simply FUCKED ME OFF in private mail and told me that there would no further relations with me??????

THANK YOU!!!!!! Amazing attitude and service!!! Just ruining the car and fucked me off

[quicktwinturbo]

[Soorena]

Very unfortunate. Well as they say you got to pay to play, and in your case needed it much pay for little play.

IMHO, ESS shouldn't have given you an imperfect car given the fact that they had 4 months which is more than enough unless they were waiting for the parts for the most of it. Also i believe you are at fault for not forcing them to install a wideband or at least installing one the moment you received the car. The very first days of breaking in a freshly built engine are the days that you need monitor very closely.

6. You are talking about the necessity of special gauges? No problems, I asked you in summer to install them while building the car in Norway... What you told me? "NO, we could not install them in Norway, please do it yourself the come to Russia"... And I did that, but it was too late...

7. You recommend me Awron gauge???? No, this is what I found by myself searching forums, cause you did not recomment me anything, and only after I specifically wrote you what I found, you told me: "Good, this is what I have"... WHY you did not tell your guys to install any gauges if they are SO IMPORTANT and why you try to make me look so stupid?????

Legit question IMHO.

[AJ@ESS]

Sergei,

1. Standard VT2-650 is 99mm SC pulley and ~8PSI boost. Running a 96mm gives you 9-10PSI boost and a 94mm is ~11PSI boost. The 92mm is closer to 12PSI. You have always been informed that raising the boost from ESS spec is dangerous and that a new engine purchase is a very likely outcome. You did not care since what was important to you was to win your races. The ESS 650 kit is a completely maxed out stock S65 setup in our standard configuration, and any boost increase in this kit means a massive increase in risk. We have always been VERY clear on this to you, and to other customers with the same questions. It does not really matter if you ran the 92 or 94mm SC pulley with the 650 crank, both will quickly kill the engine just as I told you it would.

2. I always told you that the car should be left with us until we informed you it was tested and ready. I was very clear on the fact that you should never rush a custom build. Well, you called every single day for weeks and you scheduled flight after flight even if we specifically told you not to and that we would inform you when the car was done and tested. Eventually when all assembly was completed you showed up the next day to take possesion. Since it is your car, there was nothing we could do about it except to inform you that it is a very unwise thing to do as we had not had time to do proper road testing of your installation. I also informed you VERY clearly that we do not warranty or support the VT3 setup and that a small problem with fuel delivery can cause massive engine failure almost instantly so you have to monitor this at all times when driving under high load. All risks associated with this setup is on you and if you break your engine, you will have to buy a new one. Again you chose to disregard my advice as you always seem to do.

3. We used dual wideband sensors during all our testing and the car operated normally. We also told you to install a system permanently in the car before starting to drive it hard. I specifically recommended the EAS system for a clean install. We do not stock this setup in Norway, and we are not in the business of selling gauges to avoid the possible support on these. We leave it up to the customer to chose and install what he prefers. We just inform you that it is a requirement to properly monitor the engine under high load, and to not take the engine to high load before this is installed.

There was no mistake in the ESS team at all, the car was operating perfectly when you picked it up and you even called us the next day to inform us of the excellent power and driveability. You did not allow us any time at all for extended road testing/shakedown and you did not follow my strong advice to monitor AFR at all times under high load. You did not even install the AFR gauge before beating on the car! The VT3 runs a complex multi pump fuel system with an advanced fuel pressure control system. There are multiple things in this system that can fail, and if it does your engine will die if you do not pay attention to your AFR's.

Again, since you do not seem to get a grasp of what no warranty means: ESS does not provide any warranty coverage on custom high boost race builds in any shape or form. If you break it, you buy a new one! It is that simple. And going 180+MPH with no AFR gauge and with apparent engine hesitations under high load is a very good way to break the engine. You even told me when you got back to Russia that to get to maximum speed you had to back off the throttle as the engine would not pull cleanly at WOT. Your car clearly had substantial fuel delivery issues at that point from either a failed pump or regulator and yet you still kept running the engine at high load until it finally gave out.

We would have gladly supplied you with a sleeved block and new pistons at our cost if you simply would have given us a chance to respond to your email from yesterday before publically bashing us with incorrect information and a complete lack of common sense:

-You chose to massively overboost both stock engines resulting in damage, just as I told you it would.

-You chose to drive the VT3 engine at full power repeatedly without installing an AFR gauge and monitoring engine operation as instructed. Even after fuel supply problems became apparent by lack of correct power production at WOT, you still kept beating on the engine to 180MPH. I told you the engine would be damaged if you did this, yet you still did repeatedly ending in massive engine failure.

How exactly is this our fault?

[AJ@ESS]

Originally Posted by Soorena

Very unfortunate. Well as they say you got to pay to play, and in your case needed it much pay for little play.

IMHO, ESS shouldn't have given you an imperfect car given the fact that they had 4 months which is more than enough unless they were waiting for the parts for the most of it. Also i believe you are at fault for not forcing them to install a wideband or at least installing one the moment you received the car. The very first days of breaking in a freshly built engine are the days that you need monitor very closely.

BMW had a massive supply problem on headbolts this fall and we were waiting for many weeks for them. This affected both our US and EU S65/85 engine build time. Normally a VT3 build with testing takes 3-4 months. 2 months to build and 4-8 weeks to test. I clearly informed Sergei of this fact, but he had to pick the car up due to some visa issues he claimed. We told him to simply ship the car back when properly tested by us, but that was not an option for him. He was extremely irrational about the whole process, and it seemed his #1 priority was to drive the car as quickly as he could no matter what. Therefore we did the best we could given the conditions and performed 40-50 dynopulls where everything performed normally as well as a 3 hour driveability test on the slippery roads of Norway at the time. We specifically stated a wideband monitoring system must be installed before driving the car hard, and we recommended the EAS setup for a clean install.

And again, to anyone reading this with a SC system : Do NOT under any condition modify your boost settings unless you are fully prepared to buy a new engine when it blows. There is a very high probability that you will have to do this with more boost than specified by your kit manufacturer.

[Vic311]

Epic

[filinm3]

Originally Posted by AJ@ESS

Sergei,

1. Standard VT2-650 is 99mm SC pulley and ~8PSI boost. Running a 96mm gives you 9-10PSI boost and a 94mm is ~11PSI boost. The 92mm is closer to 12PSI. You have always been informed that raising the boost from ESS spec is dangerous and that a new engine purchase is a very likely outcome. You did not care since what was important to you was to win your races. The ESS 650 kit is a completely maxed out stock S65 setup in our standard configuration, and any boost increase in this kit means a massive increase in risk. We have always been VERY clear on this to you, and to other customers with the same questions. It does not really matter if you ran the 92 or 94mm SC pulley with the 650 crank, both will quickly kill the engine just as I told you it would.

2. I always told you that the car should be left with us until we informed you it was tested and ready. I was very clear on the fact that you should never rush a custom build. Well, you called every single day for weeks and you scheduled flight after flight even if we specifically told you not to and that we would inform you when the car was done and tested. Eventually when all assembly was completed you showed up the next day to take possesion. Since it is your car, there was nothing we could do about it except to inform you that it is a very unwise thing to do as we had not had time to do proper road testing of your installation. I also informed you VERY clearly that we do not warranty or support the VT3 setup and that a small problem with fuel delivery can cause massive engine failure almost instantly so you have to monitor this at all times when driving under high load. All risks associated with this setup is on you and if you break your engine, you will have to buy a new one. Again you chose to disregard my advice as you always seem to do.

There was no mistake in the ESS team at all, the car was operating perfectly when you picked it up and you even called us the next day to inform us of the excellent power and driveability. You did not allow us any time at all for extended road testing/shakedown and you did not follow my strong advice to monitor AFR at all times under high load. You did not even install the AFR gauge before beating on the car! The VT3 runs a complex multi pump fuel system with an advanced fuel pressure control system. There are multiple things in this system that can fail, and if it does your engine will die if you do not pay attention to your AFR's.

Again, since you do not seem to get a grasp of what no warranty means: ESS does not provide any warranty coverage on custom high boost race builds in any shape or form. If you break it, you buy a new one! It is that simple. And going 180+MPH with no AFR gauge and with apparent engine hesitations under high load is a very good way to break the engine. You even told me when you got back to Russia that to get to maximum speed you had to back off the throttle as the engine would not pull cleanly at WOT. Your car clearly had substantial fuel delivery issues at that point from either a failed pump or regulator and yet you still kept running the engine at high load until it finally gave out.

We would have gladly supplied you with a sleeved block and new pistons at our cost if you simply would have given us a chance to respond to your email from yesterday before publically bashing us with incorrect information and a complete lack of common sense:

-You chose to massively overboost both stock engines resulting in damage, just as I told you it would.

-You chose to drive the VT3 engine at full power repeatedly without installing an AFR gauge and monitoring engine operation as instructed. Even after fuel supply problems became apparent by lack of correct power production at WOT, you still kept beating on the engine to 180MPH. I told you the engine would be damaged if you did this, yet you still did repeatedly ending in massive engine failure.

How exactly is this our fault?

I did not want to comment the lie you are writing here.

If you decided to provide me with sleeved block and pistons at your cost, just do it - this is the best and the only way in current situation...

All the other outcomes, like naming me stupid in private mails, would show your real face and the level of service

[AJ@ESS]

Originally Posted by filinm3

I did not want to comment the lie you are writing here.

If you decided to provide me with sleeved block and pistons at your cost, just do it - this is the best and the only way in current situation...

All the other outcomes, like naming me stupid in private mails, would show your real face and the level of service

I honestly think you have not been very clever about this process. If you send us an email on Saturday, I would at least wait until Monday for a reply before publically bashing us for something that is not our fault and claiming we ignore you. It would most likely make the process of getting us to assist you easier I would think..

If you send us your block with crank/rods/pistons as is I will have it sleeved and fitted with new pistons and return it back to you at our cost. Then you will have to verify function of both fuel pumps and verify correct fuel pressure operation. This time do NOT drive the car hard without a working AFR gauge, and if it goes over 12.5:1 at WOT get off the throttle at once!

And to remind you again, there are no warranties whatsoever on the VT3. Everything related to this system is entirely your own risk!

Send the block to :

ESS Tuning
6150 W Gila Springs Pl #4-6
Chandler, AZ 85224
USA

[GreeKon]

Well....I'll say this: It is now public record that ESS has gone the extra mile for the OP. They have also stated repeatedly that there is NO WARRANTY for the built engine. There can be no argument about this.

I hope the OP takes the offer, tries again and has better luck!

[US///M3]

It's kind of disappointing that ESS didnt include all the gauges that they felt were crucial for safe operation, the op paid good money for the build.

I personally feel both sides share some blames, 4 months is a really long time for ESS not to be able to conduct all the testing they needed and properly finish the work.

[GreeKon]

Originally Posted by US///M3

It's kind of disappointing that ESS didnt include all the gauges that they felt were crucial for safe operation, the op paid good money for the build.

I personally feel both sides share some blames, 4 months is a really long time for ESS not to be able to conduct all the testing they needed and properly finish the work.

+100000000

I feel exactly the same.

[Soorena]

Originally Posted by AJ@ESS

If you send us your block with crank/rods/pistons as is I will have it sleeved and fitted with new pistons and return it back to you at our cost. Then you will have to verify function of both fuel pumps and verify correct fuel pressure operation. This time do NOT drive the car hard without a working AFR gauge, and if it goes over 12.5:1 at WOT get off the throttle at once!

And to remind you again, there are no warranties whatsoever on the VT3. Everything related to this system is entirely your own risk!

Respect.

[US///M3]

Originally Posted by AJ@ESS

I honestly think you have not been very clever about this process. If you send us an email on Saturday, I would at least wait until Monday for a reply before publically bashing us for something that is not our fault and claiming we ignore you. It would most likely make the process of getting us to assist you easier I would think..

If you send us your block with crank/rods/pistons as is I will have it sleeved and fitted with new pistons and return it back to you at our cost. Then you will have to verify function of both fuel pumps and verify correct fuel pressure operation. This time do NOT drive the car hard without a working AFR gauge, and if it goes over 12.5:1 at WOT get off the throttle at once!

And to remind you again, there are no warranties whatsoever on the VT3. Everything related to this system is entirely your own risk!

Send the block to :

ESS Tuning
6150 W Gila Springs Pl #4-6
Chandler, AZ 85224
USA

I honestly think ESS wasn't very clever about this build, if you believed the op's car needed the AFR, boost, fuel pressure Gauges, while you had the car in your posession for 4 months for an engine replacement + SC,that would've been a good time to do it. Why not include the gauges in the price instead of sending him to go get them on his own and installled in Russia?

I mean you are the specialists.