▀▄ eas | S65 Rod Bearing Replacement: An ongoing "Journal"

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by tom @ eas

While this is typical for replacement bearings, I haven't seen any colors on bearings pulled from engines (S65 and S52/S54).

SHADY1's bearings have no color markings.

That's a bummer. Now you have me questioning whether I was looking at a rebuilt engine or factory engine. I've seen both, and it's possible I saw the mixed color mains on the rebuilt engine.

I do have access to a few different sets of used factory bearings, but it will take a few weeks before I'm available to go take a look. When I do, I'll report back. I'll be able to take pictures of whatever the shop has in the way of replaced bearings. They are doing an S65 rod bearing replacement next week themselves.

If you're right about no color on factory bearings, then I'll bet Kawasaki is right about blue being +0.0005 (I think he meant 0.0005 not 0.0010), and red being +0.0000 and realoem just being a bit ambiguious about the rod bearing color designation.

[regular guy]

But then I found this:

Using a clean-room wipe and isopropyl alcohol, carefully clean each rod bearing (see Photo 4). Install each bearing into the rod cap and rod half. Depending upon which engine you have, there may be upper and lower bearing shell halves (blue for the top side and red for the lower side near the rod cap).

http://www.pelicanparts.com/bmw/tech...d-Bearings.htm

[tom @ eas]

Originally Posted by B767capt

I hope not because I put the -702 red on the bottom of my S85 a few weeks ago when I did mine myself. I had Vincent at Bimmerzone check the correct part numbers using my VIN (08 M5) with his BMW parts contact and I got the 703 and 702 sent. So far it's running great.

The old ones had Clevite 113 stamped on the back but the new ones didn't and had the BMW logo stamped on them with the color code on the side.

Edit: Just found this. Says ended.
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...=11&fg=20&hl=5

SHADY1's bearings have the same markings with <CL> instead of the BMW logo.

Not sure if this was posted yet, but posting to help aid in a forum search at a later date.

BMW OEM ROD BEARING PART NUMBERS
11 24 7 841 703 - Bearing shell, blue 53,00MM (0) (old part number 11 24 7 838 089)
11 24 7 841 702 - Bearing shell, red 53,00MM (0) (old part number 11 24 7 838 088)

Originally Posted by regular guy

That's a bummer. Now you have me questioning whether I was looking at a rebuilt engine or factory engine. I've seen both, and it's possible I saw the mixed color mains on the rebuilt engine.

I do have access to a few different sets of used factory bearings, but it will take a few weeks before I'm available to go take a look. When I do, I'll report back. I'll be able to take pictures of whatever the shop has in the way of replaced bearings. They are doing an S65 rod bearing replacement next week themselves.

If you're right about no color on factory bearings, then I'll bet Kawasaki is right about blue being +0.0005 (I think he meant 0.0005 not 0.0010), and red being +0.0000 and realoem just being a bit ambiguious about the rod bearing color designation.

Definitely appreciated.

We're also going to tear down our shop M3 @ 18,000mi in the upcoming weeks and get an oil sample to make an early mileage comparison. We'll be sure to post results when completed.

[e92zero]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

Aha, so the blues are +.001 and reds are .000. With that being the case I would only run red and red on the replacements then I would scotchbrite the back side pretty hard and call it a day should be able to get it to around .0017 like that.

So then with the actual factory spec of blue on top and red on the bottom, the space within the rod is not round for the crank journal to start with? It seems that red+red and then M0-40 is the best bandit we have for the time being. Do you have any recommendation or knowledge of the WPC process that has kinda flow into these threads? If going with this shot peening process, do we do both side of the bearing or just the side that contacts the journal? Thinking maybe to get the red bearings for both top and bottom and have them treated with the WPC process. Thanks in advance.

[tom @ eas]

Had a request to post a picture of the markings of the rod bearings:



While there is no paint designation, clearly the 088/089 part numbers can be seen.

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by regular guy

If you're right about no color on factory bearings, then I'll bet Kawasaki is right about blue being +0.0005 (I think he meant 0.0005 not 0.0010), and red being +0.0000 and realoem just being a bit ambiguious about the rod bearing color designation.

The bearing is sized to each half shell however its numbering is designated to the diameter. This is why using a red-red vs a red-blue will be .0005 tighter although the shell is marked +.001 for the blue. Your clearance will be 1/2 the shell marking.
Going from a red to a yellow is .0005 but you will only gain .00025. Likewise going from red to blue will be .0005 tighter not .001

Originally Posted by e92zero

So then with the actual factory spec of blue on top and red on the bottom, the space within the rod is not round for the crank journal to start with? It seems that red+red and then M0-40 is the best bandit we have for the time being. Do you have any recommendation or knowledge of the WPC process that has kinda flow into these threads? If going with this shot peening process, do we do both side of the bearing or just the side that contacts the journal? Thinking maybe to get the red bearings for both top and bottom and have them treated with the WPC process. Thanks in advance.

The rod bearing should never be round. It should always have about a half thousands fall off as you get to the parting line. The bearing shell is made to compensate for this. If clearance is checked at 45 degrees it will be a bit larger than straight up, although the tightest spot is usually about 15 degrees off vertical axis.
From our extensive testing there is just nothing to coated bearings. Coated cams, lifters and other parts are fine but crankshafts and bearings just never work out. Problem is most of the coating ends up coming off anyway and it serves no purpose but wasting money. There is absolutely no need for a coated rod bearing if everything else is right clearance wise. Now being we are too tight does it help, I guess that is yet to be seen.

It is very rare that you will see the paint on the rod bearings because they are rotating in the oil which washes the paint off. Sometimes the mains will retain the paint because the oil runs across them but they are not spun in the oil like the rods.

[e92zero]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

The rod bearing should never be round. It should always have about a half thousands fall off as you get to the parting line. The bearing shell is made to compensate for this. If clearance is checked at 45 degrees it will be a bit larger than straight up, although the tightest spot is usually about 15 degrees off vertical axis.
From our extensive testing there is just nothing to coated bearings. Coated cams, lifters and other parts are fine but crankshafts and bearings just never work out. Problem is most of the coating ends up coming off anyway and it serves no purpose but wasting money. There is absolutely no need for a coated rod bearing if everything else is right clearance wise. Now being we are too tight does it help, I guess that is yet to be seen.

I see. Thanks for the explanation. I am not interested in the coated bearings by VAC but the WPC process is supposedly not a coating but a surface treatment similar to shot peening though: http://www.wpctreatment.com/about.htm. Just wondering if it's marketing hype or it's really beneficial in our application as well.

[MisterEm]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

The bearing is sized to each half shell however its numbering is designated to the diameter. This is why using a red-red vs a red-blue will be .0005 tighter although the shell is marked +.001 for the blue. Your clearance will be 1/2 the shell marking.
Going from a red to a yellow is .0005 but you will only gain .00025. Likewise going from red to blue will be .0005 tighter not .001


The rod bearing should never be round. It should always have about a half thousands fall off as you get to the parting line. The bearing shell is made to compensate for this. If clearance is checked at 45 degrees it will be a bit larger than straight up, although the tightest spot is usually about 15 degrees off vertical axis.
From our extensive testing there is just nothing to coated bearings. Coated cams, lifters and other parts are fine but crankshafts and bearings just never work out. Problem is most of the coating ends up coming off anyway and it serves no purpose but wasting money. There is absolutely no need for a coated rod bearing if everything else is right clearance wise. Now being we are too tight does it help, I guess that is yet to be seen.

It is very rare that you will see the paint on the rod bearings because they are rotating in the oil which washes the paint off. Sometimes the mains will retain the paint because the oil runs across them but they are not spun in the oil like the rods.

Thank you for sharing your expertise Kawasaki. I eat up all of your technical posts. Much appreciated.

[regular guy]

Got a lot more information. There have apparently been three different S65 crankshafts, and two sets of connecting rods. Maybe somebody with better BMW connections (hint, hint, Tom@EAS) can fill in the blanks. You will be surprised, I even found +.001 bearings and they are currently available!

BTW, this wasn't easy to track down. Had to look in catalogs out of country, etc. Called local dealer and confirmed they are all valid part numbers, and +size bearings are still available using these part numbers.

Crankshafts:
11 21 7 838 641 Crankshaft, Ended (no date given), no weight given
11 21 7 841 658 Crankshaft, Ended (October 2008), 20.400 kg
11 21 0 443 639 Crankshaft, Current production, 23.840 kg

Main Bearings:
11 21 7 841 488 Main Bearing Top, Yellow, Ended (October 2008)
11 21 7 841 609 Main Bearing Top, Yellow, Replaced 488 bearing
11 21 7 841 489 Main Bearing Top, Green, Ended (October 2008)
11 21 7 841 610 Main Bearing Top, Green, Replaced 489 bearing
11 21 7 841 490 Main Bearing Top, Violet, Ended (October 2008)
11 21 7 841 611 Main Bearing Top, Violet, Replaced 490 bearing
11 21 7 841 483 Main Bearing Bottom, Yellow, Ended (October 2008)
11 21 7 841 605 Main Bearing Bottom, Yellow, Replaced 483 bearing
11 21 7 841 484 Main Bearing Bottom, Green, Ended (October 2008)
11 21 7 841 606 Main Bearing Bottom, Green, Replaced 484 bearing
11 21 7 841 485 Main Bearing Bottom, Violet, Ended (October 2008)
11 21 7 841 607 Main Bearing Bottom, Violet, Replaced 485 bearing

Rod Bearings:
11 24 7 838 089 Rod Bearing Blue, 53.000 mm, +0.000 mm, Ended (no date given, but hints at July '08)
11 24 7 841 703 Rod Bearing Blue, 53.000 mm, +0.000 mm, Replacement for 089 bearing.
11 24 7 838 091 Rod Bearing Blue, 52.750 mm, +0.250 mm, Currently available

11 24 7 838 088 Rod Bearing Red, 53.000 mm, +0.000 mm, Ended (no date given, but hints at July '08)
11 24 7 841 702 Rod Bearing Red, 53.000 mm, +0.000 mm, Replacement for 088 bearing.
11 24 7 838 090 Rod Bearing Red, 52.750 mm, +0.250 mm, Currently available

I have verbal confirmation that some bearings replaced at another SoCal shop have 088/089 stamped on the back. So this would be pretty strong evidence along with information posted by Tom & B767capt that the rod bearings have indeed been superseded since production began. Most likely they were superseded in October 2008 when the crankshaft and main bearings were superseded. I will take pictures when I see these bearings in person.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

The bearing is sized to each half shell however its numbering is designated to the diameter. This is why using a red-red vs a red-blue will be .0005 tighter although the shell is marked +.001 for the blue. Your clearance will be 1/2 the shell marking.
Going from a red to a yellow is .0005 but you will only gain .00025. Likewise going from red to blue will be .0005 tighter not .001

Dang math 2.0. Will get ya every time.

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by MisterEm

Thank you for sharing your expertise Kawasaki. I eat up all of your technical posts. Much appreciated.

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by regular guy

Got a lot more information. There have apparently been three different S65 crankshafts, and two sets of connecting rods. Maybe somebody with better BMW connections (hint, hint, Tom@EAS) can fill in the blanks. You will be surprised, I even found +.001 bearings and they are currently available!

BTW, this wasn't easy to track down. Had to look in catalogs out of country, etc. Called local dealer and confirmed they are all valid part numbers, and +size bearings are still available using these part numbers.

Crankshafts:
11 21 7 838 641 Crankshaft, Ended (no date given), no weight given
11 21 7 841 658 Crankshaft, Ended (October 2008), 20.400 kg
11 21 0 443 639 Crankshaft, Current production, 23.840 kg

Main Bearings:
11 21 7 841 488 Main Bearing Top, Yellow, Ended (October 2008)
11 21 7 841 609 Main Bearing Top, Yellow, Replaced 488 bearing
11 21 7 841 489 Main Bearing Top, Green, Ended (October 2008)
11 21 7 841 610 Main Bearing Top, Green, Replaced 489 bearing
11 21 7 841 490 Main Bearing Top, Violet, Ended (October 2008)
11 21 7 841 611 Main Bearing Top, Violet, Replaced 490 bearing
11 21 7 841 483 Main Bearing Bottom, Yellow, Ended (October 2008)
11 21 7 841 605 Main Bearing Bottom, Yellow, Replaced 483 bearing
11 21 7 841 484 Main Bearing Bottom, Green, Ended (October 2008)
11 21 7 841 606 Main Bearing Bottom, Green, Replaced 484 bearing
11 21 7 841 485 Main Bearing Bottom, Violet, Ended (October 2008)
11 21 7 841 607 Main Bearing Bottom, Violet, Replaced 485 bearing

Rod Bearings:
11 24 7 838 089 Rod Bearing Blue, +0.0000, Ended (no date given, but hints at July '08)
11 24 7 841 703 Rod Bearing Blue, +0.0000, Replacement for 089 bearing.
11 24 7 838 091 Rod Bearing Blue, +0.0010, Currently available

11 24 7 838 088 Rod Bearing Red, +0.0000, Ended (no date given, but hints at July '08)
11 24 7 841 702 Rod Bearing Red, +0.0000, Replacement for 088 bearing.
11 24 7 838 090 Rod Bearing Red, +0.0010, Currently available

I have verbal confirmation that some bearings replaced at another SoCal shop have 088/089 stamped on the back. So this would be pretty strong evidence along with information posted by Tom & B767capt that the rod bearings have indeed been superseded since production began. Most likely they were superseded in October 2008 when the crankshaft and main bearings were superseded. I will take pictures when I see these bearings in person.

Thank you for taking the time to research this.

[JEllis]

Originally Posted by DLSJ5

Thank you for taking the time to research this.

[e92zero]

Thank you for the research and sharing the info.

[tom @ eas]

Originally Posted by regular guy

Rod Bearings:
11 24 7 838 091 Rod Bearing Blue, 52.750 mm, +0.250 mm, Currently available
11 24 7 838 090 Rod Bearing Red, 52.750 mm, +0.250 mm, Currently available

BMW only shows (14) of the 091s and (6) of the 090s in the country. Not even a full set.

[kawasaki00]

[QUOTE=regular guy;14589440]


11 24 7 838 088 Rod Bearing Red, 53.000 mm, +0.000 mm, Ended (no date given, but hints at July '08)
11 24 7 841 702 Rod Bearing Red, 53.000 mm, +0.000 mm, Replacement for 088 bearing.
11 24 7 838 090 Rod Bearing Red, 52.750 mm, +0.250 mm, Currently available
QUOTE]

depending on how they are figuring the clearance, the 52.75 looks like thinner bearings but the +.250 tends to believe less clearance. Have to wait for some to get measured on that one.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

depending on how they are figuring the clearance, the 52.75 looks like thinner bearings but the +.250 tends to believe less clearance. Have to wait for some to get measured on that one.

Working on it. I ordered one of each. I should be able to get them measured pretty soon. I'll take my OEM crank, and OEM rods and we'll get all the specs, including bearing thickness. BTW, I first found this info abroad, then found a version of it at the link below. My crank is an early 08. I have an idea how I can get journal sizes on the most recent cranks. Too bad I didn't think of it earlier today, I would have been able to get the measurements this afternoon.

http://bmwfans.info/parts/catalog/E9...earing_shells/

[aus]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

Aha, so the blues are +.001 and reds are .000. With that being the case I would only run red and red on the replacements then I would scotchbrite the back side pretty hard and call it a day should be able to get it to around .0017 like that.

Could you make a batch up for us??
I'm guessing sctochbrite will thin down the bearings a little?

.

[BMRLVR]

[QUOTE=kawasaki00;14590302]

Originally Posted by regular guy

11 24 7 838 088 Rod Bearing Red, 53.000 mm, +0.000 mm, Ended (no date given, but hints at July '08)
11 24 7 841 702 Rod Bearing Red, 53.000 mm, +0.000 mm, Replacement for 088 bearing.
11 24 7 838 090 Rod Bearing Red, 52.750 mm, +0.250 mm, Currently available
QUOTE]

depending on how they are figuring the clearance, the 52.75 looks like thinner bearings but the +.250 tends to believe less clearance. Have to wait for some to get measured on that one.

Exactly, to me that sounds like oversized bearings for an undersized (ground) crank journal not an undersized bearing...... The 53.00 mm and 52.75 mm sounds like the journal diameter. Lets wait until Regular guy has a chance to measure them and go from there.

[wheatpaste]

Originally Posted by regular guy

Crankshafts:
11 21 7 838 641 Crankshaft, Ended (no date given), no weight given
11 21 7 841 658 Crankshaft, Ended (October 2008), 20.400 kg
11 21 0 443 639 Crankshaft, Current production, 23.840 kg

Not that it's completely relevant to this thread, but what the hell would account for a 3.44 kg difference in crank weight for the same engine?

[saxonb]

Originally Posted by wheatpaste

Not that it's completely relevant to this thread, but what the hell would account for a 3.44 kg difference in crank weight for the same engine?

This website has different specs:

http://bmwfans.info/parts/catalog/E9...earing_shells/

11 21 7 838 641 19.900 kg / 43.872 lb
11 21 7 841 658 18.960 kg / 41.8 lb
11 21 0 443 639 18.600 kg / 41.006 lb

[aussiem3]