PDK vrs DCT

[devo]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Which is why I don't understand why the package - or at least the specific feature(s) of the package that make the car actually perform like it should - is optional. If you replace the M3 in the C&D video with one that has absolutely no options except M-DCT, I'll bet it performs identically to the one they tested. Well, other than that the C&D driver might not be able to keep the car on the track due to no MDM. The Porsche, on the other hand, seems to require Sport Chrono package just to be able to live up to its potential.

Porsche offers the turbo sans sport chrono, which not only awakens PDK but provides the turbo engine with over-boost. It should be standard and the sales guy who specced it that way should be taken for a long walk in the woods.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by footie

Are you sure you drove a PDK because every comment you made about it was the total opposite from mine and every other roadtesters opinion.

Lag, there is none, it was the first thing I went looking for. Shift speed, every bit as quick as DCT. Blipping on downshift, the PDK gives just the right amount to make it smooth, unlike what I found DCT to be like in S5-6. Also in auto mode the thing worked a dream, just like the DCT did except it didn't suffer the lag that was every present in my DCT.

I'm struggling to understand how we both came to totally different conclusions.

I stand by everything I wrote...the car I drove was a (59 plate) 2000 mile 2009 C2S with PDK but no "Sport Chrono" pack. Thats the way Porsche sells the car so don't shoot the messenger.
As I noted I'm a massive Porsche fan so this wasn't some cheap shot trying to big up my M3 at the expense of the 997.

[urbo73]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

I stand by everything I wrote...the car I drove was a (59 plate) 2000 mile 2009 C2S with PDK but no "Sport Chrono" pack. Thats the way Porsche sells the car so don't shoot the messenger.
As I noted I'm a massive Porsche fan so this wasn't some cheap shot trying to big up my M3 at the expense of the 997.

The reason Porsche sells it that way is mostly for the crowd that will leave it in AUTO mode - the former/current Tiptronic users that don't want a manual. As such, it works fine and a lot better than Tiptronic. The same reason paddles were not introduced right away - the current PDK layout is similar to the Tiptronic layout. Paddles are coming, and for those who know anything about PDK and want to use it in MANUAL mode, I'm sure they understand the need for Sports Chrono. No need to push Sports Chrono on AUTO users and no big deal to spend $1320 for Sports Chrono if you want to use PDK in MANUAL mode. BMW packages DCT differently in that in doesn't separate shift times, modes, as a separate pacakge, but that's all. Different packaging.

[MrHarris]

Originally Posted by niqui

everything i have read puts the pdk above the dct...

+1000

[urbo73]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

No, but as I recall it, back in late 2007 there was a test that compared an M3 with and without EDC and track times were near identical.

I edited my post since it got cut off, and I think you replied to that. Anyway, one test doesn't meant much to say EDC is not worthy on the track - way too many variables. If not, which I find hard to believe, then the implementation is not very good. I can tell you for sure PASM on a Porsche makes a large difference in allowing better body control and understeer suppression in cornering.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Its seems poor marketing to make an essential package an option...and then to spec up a demo car without the essential SC pack is doubly poor.
I suppose marking down the PDK for its "relatively" poor non SC optioned performance is similar to marking down the DCT's pre software update performance.

[urbo73]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Its seems poor marketing to make an essential package an option...and then to spec up a demo car without the essential SC pack is doubly poor.
I suppose marking down the PDK for its "relatively" poor non SC optioned performance is similar to marking down the DCT's pre software update performance.

It's not poor marketing or essential for the casual 911 buyer coming from a Tiptronic. From my testing/driving it's absolutely fine without SC in AUTO mode. It feels nice and smooth, but sporty. Why should they put a $1300 option in a car when many will never use it? Remember, the 911 is as much a track car as it's a nice show-off luxury car to be driven at 25-50mph around town...And the latter customer base can care less about shift times, more responsive throttle, and looser PSM.

For those that want to use it mainly in MANUAL mode (or have a more aggressive AUTO mode), they are hopefully smart enough to get the SC option. To me it's smart marketing.

[SenorFunkyPants]

OK well as we come from different markets (the tiptronic was a minority choice in the UK) then our ideas of what is essential in the std car is going to vary as well. AFAIAC if the addition of some software transforms the PDK driving experience from merely OK to as good as the M3s DCT then making it an option is at best short sighted and at worst foolish in the extreme.
I suppose I should have done more research before the demo but when Porsche Cars GB mailshot me with the offer of a car for the day I simply assumed the 997 PDK car I asked for would be "good to go". Anyone who drove the car I did back to back with the M3 DCT would declare the DCT to be the far superior transmission.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by urbo73

I edited my post since it got cut off, and I think you replied to that. Anyway, one test doesn't meant much to say EDC is not worthy on the track - way too many variables. If not, which I find hard to believe, then the implementation is not very good. I can tell you for sure PASM on a Porsche makes a large difference in allowing better body control and understeer suppression in cornering.

Right. I'm sure EDC is a great, but it's not really the same thing as PASM from my understanding. From what I have read, PASM actually lowers the suspension a bit, while EDC does not. My impression of EDC - from the limited time I have spent with it - is that it's primary function is to provide a more comfortable ride.

Also my main point about Sport Chrono is that you need it in order to get the full control (Sport+, as I recall it) over the PDK with the best possible shift times. The M3 is not packged like that. M-DCT functions the same in every way whether you get the ZTP package or not. Along those same lines (in the US anyway), you don't get the locking differential unless you get PASM (or is it Sport Chrono? - can't recall, but I know its bundled with one of the two). Again, in contrast, the M3 gets the M differential by default.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by shift@red

EDIT- without SC you dont have as agressive a setting, but PDK is better in every way than DCT from my many and long drives with each of them.
.

I would be interested to know in what respect the SC optioned PDK is better than the M3s DCT with the latest software update.

[footie]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

I stand by everything I wrote...the car I drove was a (59 plate) 2000 mile 2009 C2S with PDK but no "Sport Chrono" pack. Thats the way Porsche sells the car so don't shoot the messenger.
As I noted I'm a massive Porsche fan so this wasn't some cheap shot trying to big up my M3 at the expense of the 997.

I'm not doubting that was your experience, only that it totally goes against my own experience with PDK and every other review I have seen. I have been lucky enough to have driven several PDK cars, 4 Caymans and 2 997s (C2 and C2S) and every one of them performed better as a daily driver than my M3 did, I also would say with 100% certainty that PDK when left in auto is miles better on the track than what the M-DCT is, it's one area where I felt it excelled compared to all others. The other thing I am very confused about was your comments of lag as if it was also present with PDK like it is with M-DCT, all of the examples I drove had no lag, in fact I commented on the fact with my bit on the Cayman PDK day at Silverstone. It was something that the instructors were all aware of as a fault with the BMW.

I don't know what you thought of their launch control system compared to BMW's overly complicated system, I personally thought it was the most logical step to perform such a procedure. Even the amount of different mode available is in stark contrast to how BMW go about things. To me at least it appears that it's BMW's way of justifying their price of M-DCT compared to the lesser DCT in the Z4 among others.

After driving the Porsche and VAG versions of basically the same gearbox I came away with the opinion that BMW either use the amount of modes on offer as a way of showing them to be different or over think things with the what ifs instead of just concentrating on getting the basics right and forgetting about the 'every mode under the sun' approach which ultimately led to flaws in the software and a year long continuous update procedure to get it right.

[SenorFunkyPants]

I had the car for most the day, drove it like I stole and used manual shift almost exclusively and as I said one of the few times I tried auto mode it caught me out quite badly with lag and this really was the basis of my original post in the General M3 forum as I wasn't really trying to compare the 997 to the M3 but the simply the 2 gearboxes. I did a short write up on the 997 over on M3torque - http://www.m3torque.co.uk/showthread.php?t=302
AFAIK the demo car didn't have launch control and its not something I've ever thought of using in any of my M3s.
I think the fair comparison would be between a PDK 997 plus the SC pack and a DCT M3 with the latest software update...if the PDK + SC pack is as good as you guys suggest then it will no doubt be a match for the DCT. I suspect magazine testers who have previously compared the two (pre DCT software update) would revise their opinion given the chance.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

I think the fair comparison would be between a PDK 997 plus the SC pack and a DCT M3 with the latest software update...if the PDK + SC pack is as good as you guys suggest then it will no doubt be a match for the DCT.

Any chance you can get such a car to compare with? You've owned twelve Porsches so you've got to have some pull right? I'd love to hear your impressions, given the disparity you seem to have experienced between the M3 and the non-Sport-Chrono C2.

[footie]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

I had the car for most the day, drove it like I stole and used manual shift almost exclusively and as I said one of the few times I tried auto mode it caught me out quite badly with lag and this really was the basis of my original post in the General M3 forum as I wasn't really trying to compare the 997 to the M3 but the simply the 2 gearboxes. I did a short write up on the 997 over on M3torque - http://www.m3torque.co.uk/showthread.php?t=302
AFAIK the demo car didn't have launch control and its not something I've ever thought of using in any of my M3s.
I think the fair comparison would be between a PDK 997 plus the SC pack and a DCT M3 with the latest software update...if the PDK + SC pack is as good as you guys suggest then it will no doubt be a match for the DCT. I suspect magazine testers who have previously compared the two (pre DCT software update) would revise their opinion given the chance.

I am still lost as to why you found lag from the PDK, unlike you I actually went looking for it, in fact I told the instructor what I was doing at the time which was most out of character with these type of sessions, that is how I knew that they (the instructor team) knew about the M-DCT's failings.

In manual mode all these gearboxes perform equally well, that is why I commented that shift speed is unnoticeable between any of them but in auto mode the PDK is better, at least all the examples I drove. There has been remarks that the Paramera is not that great but I believe it uses the same fluid as the M-DCT, unlike the early examples of PDK in the Cayman and 997.

Also, you have to believe me when I say that the LC in the PDK would have you using the system a lot more than BMW's overly complicated version. If you say that you have never used LC in your M3 then I would hazard a guess and say that you also use very little of those 11 modes either, that sort of proves my case that BMW over complicated it's gearbox for no other reason than to be different.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Any chance you can get such a car to compare with? You've owned twelve Porsches so you've got to have some pull right? I'd love to hear your impressions, given the disparity you seem to have experienced between the M3 and the non-Sport-Chrono C2.

Heh heh...I would love to but I don't like to burn up too much of their time with test drives when I know I won't be in the market for another 911 just yet. The salesman also offered me a drive in a 997 turbo and I so wanted to say yes but I turned him down...damm my stupid sense of right and wrong.

[urbo73]

Originally Posted by footie

I am still lost as to why you found lag from the PDK, unlike you I actually went looking for it, in fact I told the instructor what I was doing at the time which was most out of character with these type of sessions, that is how I knew that they (the instructor team) knew about the M-DCT's failings.

In manual mode all these gearboxes perform equally well, that is why I commented that shift speed is unnoticeable between any of them but in auto mode the PDK is better, at least all the examples I drove. There has been remarks that the Paramera is not that great but I believe it uses the same fluid as the M-DCT, unlike the early examples of PDK in the Cayman and 997.

Also, you have to believe me when I say that the LC in the PDK would have you using the system a lot more than BMW's overly complicated version. If you say that you have never used LC in your M3 then I would hazard a guess and say that you also use very little of those 11 modes either, that sort of proves my case that BMW over complicated it's gearbox for no other reason than to be different.

+1

I never noticed lag - just the 2-1 downshift when coasting to a stop. I explained why Porsche makes PDK behave that way while BMW doesn't. Some may like it and some may not.

Also agree on the BMW over-complicated DCT settings - some of which are nothing more than feeling (i.e. not faster but jerkier) which is silly to say the least. On PDK there is normal, sport, and sport+. Each is clearly defined and logical. In AUTO mode, for around the town driving, you wouldn't need sport or sport+ (which only upshifts are redline). So, again, normal is absolutely fine. What sports chrono will get you (for PDK) is faster shift times that ARE noticeable, mostly on upshifts at WOT. Also will allow for higer rev limit, etc. And in AUTO mode, it will hold gears longer when off the gas instead of upshifting to save gas. All perfectly logical and simple to me.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by footie

I am still lost as to why you found lag from the PDK,

It was as I said I was rolling up to a junction at low revs in auto 2 and when I pressed the throttle to take advantage of a smallish gap in the traffic and there was no response for ~ a second while it sorted itself into first by which time I had pressed the accelerator quite firmly as panic began to set in, then it took off at breakneck speed.

Originally Posted by footie

Also, you have to believe me when I say that the LC in the PDK would have you using the system a lot more than BMW's overly complicated version. If you say that you have never used LC in your M3 then I would hazard a guess and say that you also use very little of those 11 modes either, that sort of proves my case that BMW over complicated it's gearbox for no other reason than to be different.

My Dad was an engineer and when I was a kid he helped me rebuild engines and gearboxes on my cars and tried to instill the idea into me that things would last longer with a little more mechanical sympathy. So the idea of using LC just goes against the grain for me.
As for gearbox modes I use S2 as my principle driving choice with the M button set to MDM and S4 for when I want to press on and D5 (only for downshifting when slowing quickly towards a junction/roundabout or similar)

[urbo73]

I have to agree that while LC is better implemented in PDK, it's still a gimmick that serves no real purpose other than to encourage street racing from a stoplight. That and for magazine 0-60mph bragging rights. I see no real purpose to it. Long term, you will be abusing the mechanical parts as well, I agree with the above.

Regarding PDK, Porsche projects something like 70-80% of their cars will be manufactured with the PDK in two years. Nobody knows for sure, but it seems that in the high performance cars, the stick is on the way out. I still prefer the traditional manual and pedal clutch for street or track, unless I was racing competitively. But this is the way of the future and it makes sense from all points of view. Manuals will be left in the econoboxes, until dual-clutch systems are cheap enough to put in all cars.

[yemenmocha]

Originally Posted by MrHarris

+1000

+1000 here too, and the other sarcastic comments about being sure the actual PDK was driven.

As the other video pointed out that compares a TUNED M3 to the current 911, the 911 is really in a different league. It's not fair to compare them. Of course on this forum and another one you'll see talk of different outcomes but what can one expect, it's an M3 forum!

[SenorFunkyPants]

The M3 in that video was a standard car while the 911 was a non- S car and it will indeed be slower round Laguna Seca ...and slower in a straight line (0-200kms/hr the 911 at 16 secs and the M3 at 15.2secs) which given the 911s traction advantage is a significant lose.
You need the gen 2 "S" version (0-200kms/hr 14.5) to get slightly ahead of an M3, so no they are not in a different league and I think if you had the chance to drive them back to back you would see that, as well as the strengths and weaknesses of each car.

[graider]

why is auto mode matter for cars in this caliber? i mean if the auto on the m-dct is absolutely sh1t, then it matters. but in this case, it works fine albeit not perfect and owners would drive it in manual mode 99% of time anyway.

like footie said, they all perform the same in manual mode. I think that's all it really matter if someone is going to choose DCT. the auto mode is really only for when you want to eat or making call in your car. you won't be driving spiritual when doing that right?

[yemenmocha]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

The M3 in that video was a standard car while the 911 was a non- S car and it will indeed be slower round Laguna Seca ...and slower in a straight line (0-200kms/hr the 911 at 16 secs and the M3 at 15.2secs) which given the 911s traction advantage is a significant lose.
You need the gen 2 "S" version (0-200kms/hr 14.5) to get slightly ahead of an M3, so no they are not in a different league and I think if you had the chance to drive them back to back you would see that, as well as the strengths and weaknesses of each car.

Must be discussing a different video.

This is a different league, and it's even worse because it's a tuned M3 vs. the Porsche. This is not "slightly ahead".

video from 1st page:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33BHlQHlkFE