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10-19-2010, 02:09 PM | #112 |
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10-19-2010, 02:10 PM | #113 |
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ha -- it's all good -- i'm just yanking chains here
i love a good MT just like any other gearhead -- but unfortunately it's all about sales these days and it's the beancounters that are making a lot of the drivetrain decisions in the vehicles we the consumers buy. we vote with our wallets -- and unfortunately the wallets that like DCTs/ATs outnumber the wallets that like MTs by a long shot
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10-19-2010, 02:20 PM | #114 |
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to bmw there is no selling point to keeping the manual option available.
DCT: -performs better (reminder: M = Motorsports = performance oriented) -gets better gas mileage -has easier learning curve other than price, what advantage does the manual have that bmw would realistically (business-wise) care about? they aren't going to care about "feel" ...especially considering that is completely subjective. though, you are right in that there is a line to be drawn where technology assumes the position of the driver. but where was everyone when ABS came about? drive by wire? active steering? stability control? etc. why were those ok, but this isn't? instead of phrasing the question as "where does automation draw the line?" it should be why do you draw the line with this specific case and not others? you don't see people "not buying" the GT-R because it doesn't come with a manual. same with ferrari, lambo, and soon enough porsche will be there (yes, they will). it's an industry wide change that will soon trickle down to non-sport cars for its clear-cut advantages. either way, this thread shouldn't be about DCT vs manual. i'm getting more and more excited for the new M3. though what i'm most interested in hearing about is the weight of the car.
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10-19-2010, 02:42 PM | #115 |
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people who argue about the dct being faster really dont get it. Yall are going to have a blast at the track when you cars can go around all by themselves. you will be sitting in a sky box drinking a cup of coffee saying, "hmm..did you see how well my car hit all the apexes, what a machine!"
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10-19-2010, 02:43 PM | #116 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
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10-19-2010, 02:50 PM | #117 | |
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Sorry, but you lost all cred after that statement. |
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10-19-2010, 03:08 PM | #118 |
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very well said. like most things in life, there is not black or white, but shades of gray. so yes, there is an arbitrary line, to which when you cross over, your not in control of the car anymore. That line is different for a lot of people.
I'd say for a lot of us, that line exists when you take 2 of my limbs out of the equation. |
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10-19-2010, 03:09 PM | #119 |
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10-19-2010, 03:50 PM | #120 |
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I agree.
In stead, let's please continue the discussion of the future of the M brand. I'm simply comparing current 3 series models and making, I think, a strong case that one of the current non-M models may, in fact, embody the ORIGINAL spirit of the M brand moreso than either the current or certainly what is rumored to be the F30 M. I'll say it again, I think the current M3 is fantastic. Always have, I've recommended it to several friends, and personally I had a really hard time deciding between the two cars. Believe it or not, money wasn't the deciding factor. As anyone can easily see, I've well passed the purchase price of an M3 with the total 335. To me, I valued the lightness, the acceleration, the tunability, of the 335. I knew I'd replace the suspension, wheels, tires, brakes, etc of either car, and that the overall handling would be equal. One area I haven't been able to improve the 335 to my satisfaction is the heat issue. An M3 will run laps all day just fine. I run into temperature issues in 10 laps or so. Certainly wouldn't be a good canditate for endurance racing, whereas the M3 is a great engine for that. If they're going with a tri-turbo stroker N55, I'll be really interested to see how they handle the cooling issue. Anyway, good discussion. All great cars. Hope the F30 M they produce is a fast, light, fun (manual ) car!
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Last edited by southlight; 10-19-2010 at 05:31 PM.. Reason: . |
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10-19-2010, 04:05 PM | #121 | |
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You can increase engine capacity, both by increasing stroke, and by decreasing stroke. (The calculator you showed does not let you adjust the other items, like rod length.) (stroked) You can increase volume (L) by using a longer crank and [even more] shorter rods This : increases torque reduces relative horsepower - increase in volume makes up for HP loss increases sidewall-load, and lowers maximum RPM Engines on the extreme of this configuration are considered 'long stroke'. (de-stroked) You can increase volume (L) by using longer rods and [an even more] shorter crank. This : increases horsepower reduces relative torque - increase in volume makes up for torque loss reduces sidewall-load, and increases maximum RPM Engines on the extreme of this configuration are considered 'short stroke'. If BMW chooses to, they can make a turbo N55 with 3.5L and a very short stroke - without violating the head height constraints. And they can make it even revvier - fortunately, loss in torque from shorter stroke could be made up for with FI. Essentially, 3.5L isn't all that unlikely. -scheherazade Last edited by scheherazade; 10-19-2010 at 04:17 PM.. |
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10-19-2010, 04:33 PM | #122 | |
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But Scheherazade is obviously right (besides the typo, I assume he means you can increase capacity both by increasing stroke and/or increasing bore). There's room in the middle for the engine designers. My concern would be with the open deck block while increasing bore and presumably increasing boost.
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10-19-2010, 04:48 PM | #124 | |
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Look up "stroked" vs "de-stroked". The key point is : you can adjust stroke and rod length to get more capacity, without violating head constraints. Read this PDF : http://www.kidzuku.com/StrokeOrNot.pdf I know it's long, but it's really worth it. You'll walk away enlightened, seriously. Note : The distinction is that there is a small twist... Instead of only looking at swept volume, you include increase in empty space at the top of the cylinder as increase in capacity. The engine ultimately has lower compression - which isn't all bad, since it allows you to run more boost. -scheherazade Last edited by scheherazade; 10-19-2010 at 05:13 PM.. |
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10-19-2010, 05:27 PM | #125 |
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Ah, you mean a shorter rod length, so greater displacement. That works too.
Really, we both agree there's several options for them to reach 3.5l displacement within the N55/N54 block parameters. Yeah, I pretty much covered all of that when I said that net of ENGINE (and BODY PANELS ) it's s simple SUSPENSION swap to basically turn a 335 into an M3. Engine-Check DCT-I drive a manual Body Panels-Check Suspension-Check Wow, just let it go!
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Last edited by Ironring Racing; 10-19-2010 at 05:37 PM.. |
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10-19-2010, 05:30 PM | #126 | ||
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Best regards, south
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10-19-2010, 05:32 PM | #127 | |
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Look at it this way : Consider the serb/bosnian conflict... As an outsider, both of the peoples seem essentially identical. If you walked in there, you wouldn't be able to tell one apart from the other. But if you're a local, you can look down the street, and point out every person from one side or the other. It's kind of the same way with the 335 and the M3. Within the 'BMW family', they're so different. But if you zoom out and take a broader view, they're practically the same thing. The difference in perspective means that the same/different argument will always be at an impasse. -scheherazade |
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10-19-2010, 05:53 PM | #128 | |
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Best regards, south
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10-19-2010, 05:56 PM | #129 |
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south, you should update the first post of this thread to reflect scott's comments regarding the 2011 departure of the e90 and 2012 departure of the e92 and e93.
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10-19-2010, 06:00 PM | #130 |
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Done.
Best regards, south
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10-19-2010, 06:25 PM | #132 |
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south:
We all knew it was coming, like a dark, wet, torrential storm signals the change of seasons- BMW will be homoginizing the M3 and eliminating the last of the high-reving n/a motors. This is enough in and of itself to give pause to us all, but if BMW decides to cut the MT from the F3x M3, two things are sure to happen; 1) They'll have lost me, my family, and all of my future children as customers. 2) I'll be keeping my '11 forever. P.S. Hasn't all of the recent scientific studies which de-bunk the man-made climate change theory penetrated the walls of the lawmakers yet?
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