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      07-21-2014, 01:35 PM   #111
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Very little talk about it. Although I suspect most have come to the logically conclusion that yes, there was Russian involvement to some extend.

One of the aviation analyst made the following analogy: Putin gave some delinquent children a gas can and matches and is now shocked that there is a fire.
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      07-21-2014, 02:54 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scalbert View Post
Very little talk about it. Although I suspect most have come to the logically conclusion that yes, there was Russian involvement to some extend.

One of the aviation analyst made the following analogy: Putin gave some delinquent children a gas can and matches and is now shocked that there is a fire.
x1,000

Not much at all to talk about, it's a tragedy and hopefully not just the US but the rest of the international community will do something to stop this craziness. The world tried to turn a blind eye to it (most of Europe relies on Russia for natural gas and most of their supply runs right through Ukraine) but once you have a bunch of idiots who have no clue what they're doing firing surface to air missiles at commercial airliners mistaking them for military craft, something needs to be done.
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      07-25-2014, 01:20 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by m3ray View Post
I am amazed this thread has not been updated (or another thread created) about the Malyasia commerical airliner that was shot down. Seems plausible to believe Russia had a heavy involvement.
I'm from Holland and not a big fan of Putin/Russia(understatement) but (keeping it neutral for the time being ) I won't be surprised if it's not Russia but Ukraine behind this terrible so called accident...

298 lives lost (194 fellow dutch citizens...RIP)

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      07-25-2014, 09:08 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
I'm from Holland and not a big fan of Putin/Russia(understatement) but (keeping it neutral for the time being ) I won't be surprised if it's not Russia but Ukraine behind this terrible so called accident...

298 lives lost (194 fellow dutch citizens...RIP)

Cheers
Robin
That's really just a very long shot possibility. The missile came from the heart of territory firmly controlled by the separatists. The idea that the Ukrainians would (or could) carry out a clandestine "mission impossible" type operation there is pretty far fetched.

The Ukranians would have very little to gain, as has been shown by the aftermath, and the risks would be huge. They'd be operating in territory demonstrably shown to be well beyond their ability to control.

All in all, the idea that the separatists just went too far is far more credible and likely.
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      07-26-2014, 12:45 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by 128Convertibleguy View Post
That's really just a very long shot possibility. The missile came from the heart of territory firmly controlled by the separatists. The idea that the Ukrainians would (or could) carry out a clandestine "mission impossible" type operation there is pretty far fetched.

The Ukranians would have very little to gain, as has been shown by the aftermath, and the risks would be huge. They'd be operating in territory demonstrably shown to be well beyond their ability to control.

All in all, the idea that the separatists just went too far is far more credible and likely.
In bold: That's what they want us to believe, evidence still is zero atm.

I don't have any links and info for you right now(but I have read more than a lot about it) , but it could be False Flag.

Things far more credible are indeed easier to believe.

Russia has many things to lose: Gas exports etcetera to EU.

The last(current, almost fallen) Ukrainian goverment was helped by NATO/EU. The former government did not have any 'problems' like there are right now for the Ukrainian people. Ask normal Ukrainians in the streets and they want this Ukr. government to fall and many of them want Russia to help them...

I'm not a conspiracy guy at all, but this I'm not so sure about.

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      07-26-2014, 09:13 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
Russia has many things to lose: Gas exports etcetera to EU.

The last(current, almost fallen) Ukrainian goverment was helped by NATO/EU. The former government did not have any 'problems' like there are right now for the Ukrainian people. Ask normal Ukrainians in the streets and they want this Ukr. government to fall and many of them want Russia to help them...

I'm not a conspiracy guy at all, but this I'm not so sure about.

Cheers
Robin
Russia has little to worry about re gas exports. The EU economy collapses without them. The price they'd have to pay to replace them would be astronomical. It's why the EU won't really take strong action against Russia for providing the separatists with the means to wage war and shoot down aircraft.

As far as the Ukranian people are concerned, as has been discussed here, they were fairly closely divided. They previously almost alternated between electing pro-West and pro-Russian presidents. Now that Crimea is gone, a clear majority of Ukranians are pro-West. The pro-West people do live mostly in western Ukraine. So, eastern Ukraine is generally pro-Russian, even though the majority of the country is not. The answer you'd get from Ukrainians in the street would be quite different in Kiev, as compared to Donetsk.

Last edited by 128Convertibleguy; 07-26-2014 at 09:24 AM.
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      07-29-2014, 08:19 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
In bold: That's what they want us to believe, evidence still is zero atm.

I don't have any links and info for you right now(but I have read more than a lot about it) , but it could be False Flag.

Things far more credible are indeed easier to believe.

Russia has many things to lose: Gas exports etcetera to EU.

The last(current, almost fallen) Ukrainian goverment was helped by NATO/EU. The former government did not have any 'problems' like there are right now for the Ukrainian people. Ask normal Ukrainians in the streets and they want this Ukr. government to fall and many of them want Russia to help them...

I'm not a conspiracy guy at all, but this I'm not so sure about.

Cheers
Robin
Where do you get your news, or even your inside information, from? The evidence is still scanty at best because the Ukrainian separatists have hindered much of the international investigation. But what evidence there is all indicates that a Russian supplied anti-air system, employed by Ukrainian separatists, was responsible for downing the flight. I don't know what gives you cause to question that, but the general consensus (not just the US one) is that Russia supplied the weapon and Ukrainian separatists pulled the trigger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 128Convertibleguy View Post
Russia has little to worry about re gas exports. The EU economy collapses without them. The price they'd have to pay to replace them would be astronomical. It's why the EU won't really take strong action against Russia for providing the separatists with the means to wage war and shoot down aircraft.

As far as the Ukranian people are concerned, as has been discussed here, they were fairly closely divided. They previously almost alternated between electing pro-West and pro-Russian presidents. Now that Crimea is gone, a clear majority of Ukranians are pro-West. The pro-West people do live mostly in western Ukraine. So, eastern Ukraine is generally pro-Russian, even though the majority of the country is not. The answer you'd get from Ukrainians in the street would be quite different in Kiev, as compared to Donetsk.
You seem to have a limited understanding of Ukrainian and Russian affairs.

1) Russia has a lot to lose from sanctions and the resulting cut in their gas exports...nearly their entire economy is dependent on the export of that resource. Take away that economic link between them and the rest of Europe, and you'd literally see the Russian economy collapse. Don't believe me...go check out how the Russian Ruble and stocks in certain energy companies plunged the last time the international community threatened tougher sanctions.

In comparison, the EU would face a marginally negative economic disruption, but one that could easily be recovered from or mitigated by outsourcing their energy demands else where. Bottom line: sanctions would hurt Russia much more than they would hurt Europe.

2) Though there is a large minority of Ukrainian citizens in the east and Crimea who prefer closer ties with Russia, the vast majority of Ukrainians do in fact prefer to remain a sovereign/independent nation..the economist recently referenced a poll which proved that.

Also, you should keep in mind that much of the anti-government agitation and insurgency has been instigated by Russian forces/operatives and an extensive propaganda machine that has done everything in its power to demonize the Ukrainian central government. I'm not saying that the current government in Kiev is the poster-child for a modern democracy, but it certainly isn't slaughtering ethnic Russians and spreading terror in the way that Russia's state media claims it is.

Last edited by Dalko43; 07-29-2014 at 09:15 PM.
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      10-20-2014, 10:00 PM   #118
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German Intel said Ukrainian rebels shot MH17 with Ukrainian Army stolen BUK. Also said Kiev lied about BUK coming from Russia. Most likely rebels had no clue how to use BUK and shot MH17 by accident

EDIT: SU-25 story is also pretty solid I think

Last edited by Kolyan2k; 10-23-2014 at 10:27 AM.
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      10-27-2014, 09:06 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolyan2k View Post
Also said Kiev lied about BUK coming from Russia. Most likely rebels had no clue how to use BUK and shot MH17 by accident
Evidence seems to suggest otherwise. But of course, even if the SAM didn't come from Russia, we still have the Russian special forces, tanks, logistics and conventional units that have occupied Crimea and intervened in Eastern Ukraine multiple times...
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      10-27-2014, 09:41 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
Evidence seems to suggest otherwise. But of course, even if the SAM didn't come from Russia, we still have the Russian special forces, tanks, logistics and conventional units that have occupied Crimea and intervened in Eastern Ukraine multiple times...
All Kiev evidence is fake
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      10-27-2014, 11:35 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by Kolyan2k View Post
All Kiev evidence is fake
I think we have already covered this, but I wonder which country you are from???

Does it start with 'R' and end with "USSIA'?
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      10-27-2014, 12:00 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
I think we have already covered this, but I wonder which country you are from???

Does it start with 'R' and end with "USSIA'?
Yes, but its the country that starts with "G" and ends with "ERMANY" that said Kiev faked all BUK coming from Russia pictures and videos.

Last edited by Kolyan2k; 10-27-2014 at 06:42 PM.
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      10-27-2014, 12:04 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Kolyan2k View Post
Yes, but its the country that starts with "G" and ends with "ERMANY" that said Kiev faked all BUK coming from Russia pictures and videos.

And someone clearly removed/changed all SU-25 data/specs in most common internet places, as well as BBC removed interview with locals video where people say they saw SU-25 right before MH17 crash
Posted links and evidence are not only appreciated in this forum, they are encouraged!
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      10-27-2014, 12:24 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
Posted links and evidence are not only appreciated in this forum, they are encouraged!
here is one

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-997972.html

this was removed from BBC website second SU-25 stories came up (its in Russian, people talking about military plane near MH17)



And if you do your own research you will know that SU-25 max ceiling has been manipulated as well (by USA maybe). SU-25 can operate at 10km and its max ceiling is somewhere around 13-15km

Last edited by Kolyan2k; 10-27-2014 at 01:10 PM.
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      10-27-2014, 12:27 PM   #125
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Just think for a second, do you really think anyone will admit that UA military shot it with SU25 ? of course not, everyone will do their best to cover it up. Now they pretty much cleared Russia and they will clear Kiev as well and blame everything on rebels....no one to sue and everyone is happy
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      10-27-2014, 03:05 PM   #126
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Kolyan2k, I think we are misunderstanding each other here. I don't think that Russia shot down the civilian jet...I think the Ukrainian rebels did.

And while there is no concrete evidence which proves thus (because the crash site was thoroughly scrubbed by the separatists before investigators could get there), most intelligence assessments indicate that it was a SA-11 missile launched from a BUK launcher (provided to the rebels by Russia).

The links that you have provided so far have done nothing to disprove that.

Edit: So i have no idea what a SU-25's specs have to do with this. Also you first were posting a link which showed German intelligence blaming Ukrainian rebels, and then you posted a video interview which insinuated that an unidentified (possibly Ukrainian) aircraft shot down the MH 17 flight....which is it?

Last edited by Dalko43; 10-27-2014 at 03:12 PM.
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      10-27-2014, 03:15 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolyan2k View Post
And someone clearly removed/changed all SU-25 data/specs in most common internet places, as well as BBC removed interview with locals video where people say they saw SU-25 right before MH17 crash
Also, the idea that some individual or group could hack the entire internet and manipulate the specs for the SU-25 on every website that mentions it, all without anyone noticing, is laughable....

I think you've either drank too much vodka or you are just that desperate to make your version of the story (or versions, as you seem to have multiple views on this issue) more credible.
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      10-27-2014, 06:21 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
Kolyan2k, I think we are misunderstanding each other here. I don't think that Russia shot down the civilian jet...I think the Ukrainian rebels did.

And while there is no concrete evidence which proves thus (because the crash site was thoroughly scrubbed by the separatists before investigators could get there), most intelligence assessments indicate that it was a SA-11 missile launched from a BUK launcher (provided to the rebels by Russia).

The links that you have provided so far have done nothing to disprove that.

Edit: So i have no idea what a SU-25's specs have to do with this. Also you first were posting a link which showed German intelligence blaming Ukrainian rebels, and then you posted a video interview which insinuated that an unidentified (possibly Ukrainian) aircraft shot down the MH 17 flight....which is it?
I provided a link to German website where German intel said BUK is Ukrainian and not Russian and that Ukraine tried to provide fake pictures and videos that BUK came from Russia. If Russia provided BUK to UA then its Russia's fault, if BUK was NOT provided by Russia then Russia has nothing to do with MH17. Period.

Above is from German intel. Russian intel said MH17 was shot down by SU-25 and provided evidence (satellite data etc). Right after the accident BBC released a video thats above, then they quickly removed it. Kiev said that SU25 cannot climb to 10km height and therefore cannot shoot MH17 whereas Russians said 10km+ is normal for SU25

I guess I did go over board saying some websites have been altered....I dont know that. All I know is that I saw a few vids from 90s that stated SU25 can operate at 10km and all planes pre and post Su25 also can operate at 10km+ USA and Russia made, so I find it strange that SU25 is the ONLY plane thats limited at 7km

Last edited by Kolyan2k; 10-27-2014 at 06:47 PM.
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