BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > M3 (E90 / E92 / E93) > M3 vs....
 
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      06-06-2008, 07:06 AM   #1
footie
Major General
footie's Avatar
No_Country
1072
Rep
8,008
Posts

Drives: i4M50
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: No where fast

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
M5Board.com RS4 vs M3 CSL 'the rematch'



Equal power to weight and yet the awd transmission doesn't seem to be hurting the RS4 one single bit, beating the CSL and without it's benefit of a much quicker gear shift afforded by SMG.
Appreciate 0
      06-06-2008, 07:49 AM   #2
ihyln
Banned
United_States
85
Rep
3,384
Posts

Drives: M3post sucks
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: M3post sucks

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2008 M3  [0.00]
2002 530i  [0.00]
Why does the RS4 start so far ahead? Didn't really seem like a race at all.
Appreciate 0
      06-06-2008, 08:04 AM   #3
footie
Major General
footie's Avatar
No_Country
1072
Rep
8,008
Posts

Drives: i4M50
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: No where fast

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
I agree and thought the same at first but then after thinking a little I realized that it didn't matter because the CSL didn't put anything back, proving that the RS4 on this occasion at least had the better of the CSL.
Appreciate 0
      06-08-2008, 10:06 AM   #4
lucid
Major General
lucid's Avatar
United_States
374
Rep
8,033
Posts

Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Do you want to hear about the blue RS4 I repeatedly ran circles around recently? It was no contest, and reminded me of why I got the M3…
__________________
Appreciate 0
      06-08-2008, 10:12 AM   #5
RealSanaii
Lieutenant
RealSanaii's Avatar
United_States
21
Rep
452
Posts

Drives: 2008
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: US

iTrader: (0)

RS4 is nice but it ran out of production and the new B8 platform with better engine will hopefully make it a true contender to the New M3. However, given the history, they will debut the RS4 when the m3 is about to go out.
__________________
I get it now... BMW FTW!
Appreciate 0
      06-08-2008, 11:10 AM   #6
Just_me
Captain
193
Rep
657
Posts

Drives: RWD
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Sweden

iTrader: (0)

Actually we drove twice. First time the Rs4 got the start first and its the race posted above. In second race the start was more even and both rs4 and M3 CSL were closer but the RS4 was slighly ahead but the distance didnt get larger or smaller. Two equal cars in straightline is my conclusion after two race were the Rs4 is quicker in the beginning but in speed the CSL is slightly faster but can't catch up.

Last edited by Just_me; 06-08-2008 at 11:25 AM..
Appreciate 0
      06-08-2008, 01:24 PM   #7
footie
Major General
footie's Avatar
No_Country
1072
Rep
8,008
Posts

Drives: i4M50
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: No where fast

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_me View Post
Actually we drove twice. First time the Rs4 got the start first and its the race posted above. In second race the start was more even and both rs4 and M3 CSL were closer but the RS4 was slighly ahead but the distance didnt get larger or smaller. Two equal cars in straightline is my conclusion after two race were the Rs4 is quicker in the beginning but in speed the CSL is slightly faster but can't catch up.
Thanks for posting.

What you are stating seems to match what everyone I have spoken to thinks happened in the video. The surprise or should I say realisation is that both post an equal PTW but one (RS4) is meant to have a less than efficient driving train because it's awd. Clearly on this occasion at least that was not the case.

Don't know if that makes you feel better or worse.
Appreciate 0
      06-08-2008, 01:45 PM   #8
swamp2
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar
United_States
609
Rep
10,407
Posts

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (3)

If you recall the SMG II in the CSL does not significantly out shift a human. The shift times for SMG II are just about the same as a very fast human shifter, maybe a bit faster and more consistent, about 0.2 - 0.25 seconds. Similarly their power to weight are close but definitely not the same. I calculate 8.9 for the RS4 and 8.5 for the CSL.
Appreciate 0
      06-08-2008, 02:56 PM   #9
footie
Major General
footie's Avatar
No_Country
1072
Rep
8,008
Posts

Drives: i4M50
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: No where fast

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
If you recall the SMG II in the CSL does not significantly out shift a human. The shift times for SMG II are just about the same as a very fast human shifter, maybe a bit faster and more consistent, about 0.2 - 0.25 seconds. Similarly their power to weight are close but definitely not the same. I calculate 8.9 for the RS4 and 8.5 for the CSL.
My post was not so much that the PTW was identical, one is 251hp/tonne and the other 256hp/tonne in favour of the CSL. It was more to highlight this opinion that awd saps mountains of power through it's drivetrain and clearly that is not the case, or should I say not here on this occasion and with these two stock cars.

P.S.

I was under the impression that the SMG in the CSL shifted quicker than a stock M3 wih SMG. Is this not the case?
Appreciate 0
      06-08-2008, 11:11 PM   #10
swamp2
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar
United_States
609
Rep
10,407
Posts

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
My post was not so much that the PTW was identical, one is 251hp/tonne and the other 256hp/tonne in favour of the CSL. It was more to highlight this opinion that awd saps mountains of power through it's drivetrain and clearly that is not the case, or should I say not here on this occasion and with these two stock cars.

P.S.

I was under the impression that the SMG in the CSL shifted quicker than a stock M3 wih SMG. Is this not the case?
A small revision to my P/W, I think we were both wrong. I think I used an inaccurate weight spec above.

Audi USA web site 3957/420 = 9.4
CSL 3054/360 = 8.5

Could the Audi be significantly lighter in the EU?

Evidence that SMG II shifts in .2-.25 seconds here. By the way I have posted this link and referred to it quite a few times.
Appreciate 0
      06-08-2008, 11:20 PM   #11
hellrotm
Banned
4143
Rep
6,926
Posts

Drives: F80
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: ...Location...Location

iTrader: (0)

Ummm, how is a M3 CSL going to out drag a 420hp RS4?


A road course is a different story. CSL has the RS4 by 8 seconds on the Nurburgring.
Appreciate 0
      06-09-2008, 12:09 AM   #12
lucid
Major General
lucid's Avatar
United_States
374
Rep
8,033
Posts

Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

"Smash the gas"? That sounds violent man...
__________________
Appreciate 0
      06-09-2008, 11:12 AM   #13
footie
Major General
footie's Avatar
No_Country
1072
Rep
8,008
Posts

Drives: i4M50
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: No where fast

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
A small revision to my P/W, I think we were both wrong. I think I used an inaccurate weight spec above.

Audi USA web site 3957/420 = 9.4
CSL 3054/360 = 8.5

Could the Audi be significantly lighter in the EU?

Evidence that SMG II shifts in .2-.25 seconds here. By the way I have posted this link and referred to it quite a few times.
In Europe the RS4 weighs in at 3795lbs (1650+75Kgs), not sure exactly the weight of the CSL but they quote the PTW at 256hp/tonne.

The only reason I mentioned the CSL having a quicker shift pattern than the normal M3 is because a friend commented on this very fact some years ago after being loaned a normal M3 while his was in the work-shop. But in any case his comments were not the first time I had heard something similar. Maybe someone else with a CSL can possibly confirm if this is indeed the case.

The one thing SMG will have over a manual is perfect shifts every time with no missed shifts which often happen in the heat of a race, especially with Quattro. So if the perfect manual shift can match a SMG then double it for the RS4.

The fact remains that this result goes against the basic maths that awd saps more power because of the extra drive components involved. By right the CSL should in theory walk the RS4 and I bet swampie if you put all the info available into your sim it will agree. Again this is not the first time the results from pretty equal PTW cars have produced pretty equal results, in fact the RS4 and M3 on the most part produce roughly the same results, give or take a tenth or two. It a hard one to work out because dynos don't seem to cope with awd cars that well and almost always reveal poorer than expected figures for quattro cars and awd cars in general.
Appreciate 0
      06-10-2008, 04:04 AM   #14
Just_me
Captain
193
Rep
657
Posts

Drives: RWD
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Sweden

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackJetE90 View Post
Ummm, how is a M3 CSL going to out drag a 420hp RS4?


A road course is a different story. CSL has the RS4 by 8 seconds on the Nurburgring.
Actually CSL has the RS4 by 19 seconds.
Appreciate 0
      06-12-2008, 10:00 PM   #15
miktrebla09
Private First Class
5
Rep
180
Posts

Drives: biped
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Seoul / Boston

iTrader: (0)

The RS4 owner must've been bitter about losing during the summer...so he must've come back with some secret mods
Appreciate 0
      06-13-2008, 03:51 AM   #16
footie
Major General
footie's Avatar
No_Country
1072
Rep
8,008
Posts

Drives: i4M50
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: No where fast

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by miktrebla09 View Post
The RS4 owner must've been bitter about losing during the summer...so he must've come back with some secret mods

Possible but I don't believe that happened. Also I don't believe the RS4 was the same car, this title of the video and thread might be confusing on this, sorry about that.

The thing is that these occasions are there is numerous reviews and tests, regardless of the mode of drivetrain be it awd or rwd it's the PTW that is most telling and when two cars are similar on this the results show this. I think the dyno figures are a bit of a myth, or possible mislead slightly.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:11 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST