ESS S/C M3 DCT vs 911 TT 6MT DRAG

[Longboarder]

Until I started daily driving my 2013 e92 ESS 650 M3 about a year ago, I never cared about launching the car from a dig. The car was mainly used as an airstrip and track car. Going from a dig was an admitted problem given the significant increase in power from the S/C...but I never "worked" on it like I did my airstrip or track techniques.

But I'm always trying to improve on things so about a year ago I started trying to launch the car effectively and carefully - using LC was a total waste and hard to set up quickly; using DSC off was a joke and even partial throttle would evoke massive wheel spin. With all the nannies on, partial throttle would trigger significant rear brake activation which would studder the launch. Given the perhaps inherent weakness of the DCT for higher torque applications like mine, I would not try the "floorboard" method which is mashing the throttle and hitting the kickdown button which dumps the clutches. Despite all my racing events, in no way am I ever reckless with the car.

So I tried MDM...now I have Euro MDM which allow for more slip than US MDM and this setting seemed like the perfect balance. From a dead stop MDM activated power button on or off doesn't matter, I can floor the car and it will hook hard in 1st gear before it begins to spin around 5,500 RPM...quick paddle shift to 2nd gear and hold the f*** on. Euro MDM is far less intrusive and seems to prevent an all-out wheel spin event yet does so seamlessly and allows for optimum acceleration.

I've launched like this a number of times since figuring it out and it is very consistent, no matter what the road conditions. Now I have both 275 Michelin PSS on stock 19" ZCPs as well as 275 Nitto NT05's on another set of ZCP's. Both tires work great when cold or hot. I had a set of 18's with RS3's and they were a joke - no traction at all until 3rd gear even when hot. So tires matter A LOT.

I have a vBox so I need to take some measurements. I've probably done 200 vBox 0-60 launches between my old 335's and my 911 and the seat of my pants tells me I'm in the 3.4-3.7 second range all the time but I'll have to take measurements to find out for certain.

But before that, I had the opportunity to run a 2007 911 Turbo 6MT from a dig. This car is stock so it stands no chance from a roll but we all know how potent these are from a dig. I believe the mags testing 0-60 in mid 3's but launching can be a little tricky...it's not like the auto trans where you just brake boost and mash the gas....or the PDK which, well, is made by some other more advanced life form and beamed to Porsche from some distant galaxy.

So here's the play by play on the run: We went from a light on a closed wide street 3 lanes across a bit downhill. Take off was at the exact same time and I pulled a slight lead maybe 1/4 car to around 30mph which is around 5,500 rpm which I where I usually start spinning. I shifted right as the spin began so I lost no momentum and into 2nd I started pulling hard. A full car lead by 60mph and 2 cars by the top of second, kept it WOT until the end of 3rd (a tad under 90mph) and had a bus at least he was pretty far back by that point.

Anyway when I get the chance to vBox I'll update to see what I can achieve.

Cheers.

[Longboarder]

Reserved.

[dereksM3]

No this didn't happen it's impossible. The Porsche forum moderator is going to be here any minute to disproved any BMW ever beating a Porsche and gasp...one with a PDK! I foresee multiple citations of professional drivers, youtube videos, megazine articles and even the president himself saying how a little BMW couldn't do such a travesty

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by dereksM3

No this didn't happen it's impossible. The Porsche forum moderator is going to be here any minute to disproved any BMW ever beating a Porsche and gasp...one with a PDK! I foresee multiple citations of professional drivers, youtube videos, megazine articles and even the president himself saying how a little BMW couldn't do such a travesty

Haha. Well, it would be impossible on street tires for any e9X variant M3 no matter what power level to beat a PDK from a dig I will admit that. I have one and the launch capability is unreal. And probably very difficult to beat an auto trans 2007-2009 TT as well. They are supposed to be low 3-second 0-60 cars.

[dereksM3]

Yea from a dig they are beasts that for sure. There launch control actually works and AWD and that massive rear weight bias helps it a lot. I work next to Gerber Motorsports and they always have Lambo's, Ferrari's, GT3's, and TT 997's there. One guy has a built 997.1 and it is absolutely a monster from a launch.

[AlteredBe4st]

impressive!!! considering we are not made for the quarter mile runs / race from a dig, especially vs AWD Porsche turbo. The Porsche is a beast even at stock level from a dig.

[BrewRifle]

Very impressive and I have the same issue with the ESS VT2-625 on PSS'. I'm running the Euro MDM and shift into 2nd (DCT) when I feel the slippage as well. Like you said, DSC off/on and LC are next to worthless from a dig, but the MDM seem like the perfect balance. I'm very curious to know the VBox results.

Also, how much better do you think PSS 295's would fare in the rear? I'm still running 265's and can't wait until I burn through these to get 295's.

[81bear]

Thanks for sharing Longboarder!

Have you ever taken the M to a dragstrip to see how she hooks? Also, I've read a number of S/C'ed M's have had better success with traction on AD08r's or R888's, ever thought about switching?

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by BrewRifle

Very impressive and I have the same issue with the ESS VT2-625 on PSS'. I'm running the Euro MDM and shift into 2nd (DCT) when I feel the slippage as well. Like you said, DSC off/on and LC are next to worthless from a dig, but the MDM seem like the perfect balance. I'm very curious to know the VBox results.

Also, how much better do you think PSS 295's would fare in the rear? I'm still running 265's and can't wait until I burn through these to get 295's.

I don't think the width matters as much as the tire type. My RS3's were 285s on 18x11 wheels and were worthless for traction while my NT05s and PSS are 275. Your contact patch on 295's would be smaller than the contact patch of 275's on the stock wheel, so you would need wider wheels to take advantage of the wider tire. However be careful as the 295's require 30 aspect ratio which will flex less than the 35 sidewall of the 275's and may result in more tire spin.

Originally Posted by 81bear

Thanks for sharing Longboarder!

Have you ever taken the M to a dragstrip to see how she hooks? Also, I've read a number of S/C'ed M's have had better success with traction on AD08r's or R888's, ever thought about switching?

R888's are incredible. I have them on my Turbo S. After I installed a tune, exhaust and intercoolers I was spinning the crap out of my Michelin PSS using launch control. My 0-60 times increased from a best of 2.6 seconds to over 3 seconds. After installing R888's, I'm now getting consistent 2.5 seconds.

I've never taken the M3 to the drag strip. Maybe I will but I have a goal to hit 9's in the Turbo S still under warranty on street tires first

[Wolfinwolfsclothing]

Originally Posted by dereksM3

No this didn't happen it's impossible. The Porsche forum moderator is going to be here any minute to disproved any BMW ever beating a Porsche and gasp...one with a PDK! I foresee multiple citations of professional drivers, youtube videos, megazine articles and even the president himself saying how a little BMW couldn't do such a travesty

PDK? Title specifically states 6MT, and a stock 2007 911 turbo at that which puts down low 400's for WHP. Longboarder's M3 is putting down what 650 RWHP? If anything it shows just how potent the 911 turbo is in stock form. Wouldnt expect a car making that much hp less to win.
It takes a VT625/VT650 to keep up with a stock 997 turbo S and those VT cars are making a good 100+ more RWHP.

LB - please correct me if Im wrong but I have several friends who've owned each stage of which one and soon another is VT4 and well aware theyre quite powerful especailly in the Vt650 stage.

[BrewRifle]

Well now I'm intrigued about the AD08R's. I don't track (yet), but I live in Austin where it's dry most of the time so the extra dry performance/grip would be a welcome sight for 1/2 mile events I'm thinking over the PSS'.

Originally Posted by Longboarder

I don't think the width matters as much as the tire type. My RS3's were 285s on 18x11 wheels and were worthless for traction while my NT05s and PSS are 275. Your contact patch on 295's would be smaller than the contact patch of 275's on the stock wheel, so you would need wider wheels to take advantage of the wider tire. However be careful as the 295's require 30 aspect ratio which will flex less than the 35 sidewall of the 275's and may result in more tire spin.



R888's are incredible. I have them on my Turbo S. After I installed a tune, exhaust and intercoolers I was spinning the crap out of my Michelin PSS using launch control. My 0-60 times increased from a best of 2.6 seconds to over 3 seconds. After installing R888's, I'm now getting consistent 2.5 seconds.

I've never taken the M3 to the drag strip. Maybe I will but I have a goal to hit 9's in the Turbo S still under warranty on street tires first

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by BrewRifle

Well now I'm intrigued about the AD08R's. I don't track (yet), but I live in Austin where it's dry most of the time so the extra dry performance/grip would be a welcome sight for 1/2 mile events I'm thinking over the PSS'.

PSS do ok for 1/2 mile events. But the airstrip tarmac's tend to be dusty which still requires MDM with a tire like the PSS. If you can run R888's or AD08R's or another really grippy tire with DSC off and not spin at all, then that will provide the best results. I tend to need to do a burnout before the run to remove all the rocks/debris/sh*t that has accumulated on the tires as well.

[THE-FN-MAN]

What a stud, love the info! Now I'm pissed that I just put on my rs3's yesterday lol

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by Wolfinwolfsclothing

PDK? Title specifically states 6MT, and a stock 2007 911 turbo at that which puts down low 400's for WHP. Longboarder's M3 is putting down what 650 RWHP? If anything it shows just how potent the 911 turbo is in stock form. Wouldnt expect a car making that much hp less to win.
It takes a VT625/VT650 to keep up with a stock 997 turbo S and those VT cars are making a good 100+ more RWHP.

LB - please correct me if Im wrong but I have several friends who've owned each stage of which one and soon another is VT4 and well aware theyre quite powerful especailly in the Vt650 stage.

Haha I wish my M3 was 650 wheel. More like 550 now that I have cats.

Your point is likely correct although numbers a little off. A VT2 625/650 and my Turbo S (when tune/plenum only) had similar wheel HP numbers (530-ish) yet my Turbo S just flew away from the supercharged M3's in a roll race. Although Drew flew away from me with his built motor 700 wheel beast. So it would probably take a 600+ wheel M3 to keep up with a 530 wheel Turbo with an auto or pdk trans.

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by THE-FN-MAN

What a stud, love the info! Now I'm pissed that I just put on my rs3's yesterday lol

What's up brother. For a high HP M3, those tires are track only my friend - when warm they have terrific lateral grip and they will easily last a full track session in hot temps. But they provide poor straight line grip when cold or warm. I drove with them for a month. I even let an experienced driver use them on his N/A M3 at Big Willow and even he was complaining of straight line traction issues.

I learned the hard way. For straight line racing you need something that grips all the time. R888's are the best street legal tires for ultimate grip all the time but they are very noisy and good luck in the rain. I have found that Nitto NT05's are the best dual purpose tire for the street (no noise, ok in the rain) and track. Michelin PSS are the best for street only.

I'm leaving for Shift Sector in a couple hours...pretty excited

[Wolfinwolfsclothing]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

Haha I wish my M3 was 650 wheel. More like 550 now that I have cats.

Your point is likely correct although numbers a little off. A VT2 625/650 and my Turbo S (when tune/plenum only) had similar wheel HP numbers (530-ish) yet my Turbo S just flew away from the supercharged M3's in a roll race. Although Drew flew away from me with his built motor 700 wheel beast. So it would probably take a 600+ wheel M3 to keep up with a 530 wheel Turbo with an auto or pdk trans.

Wow, you def put a lot of distance on those M3s. First race looked like you pulled a football field on him and the other two werent too far off. Incredible how hard the 911 turbo pulls and pulls hard from any mph and especially strong up top.

I wouldnt expect 530 whp to keep up with 700+ whp. Those VT3s are making a lot of power. But I would expect your turbo S to be able to easily keep pace with him with ~600 whp compared to his 700 plus.

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by Wolfinwolfsclothing

I wouldnt expect 530 whp to keep up with 700+ whp. Those VT3s are making a lot of power. But I would expect your turbo S to be able to easily keep pace with him with ~600 whp compared to his 700 plus.

I actually did such a roll race after installing intercoolers and exhaust and upping the boost to 20psi to get ~ 600 wheel. Here's a more recent vid of me running Drew. 1/4 mile traps and 60-130's are probably similar but he takes off after about 140mph. He has a good 6-8 mph on me by the 1/2 mile finish line:

[per]

I raced a Turbo S year ago. my M3 is decatted and i have toyo 888 on light 18 Volk wheels

[whats77inaname]

Originally Posted by per

I raced a Turbo S year ago. my M3 is decatted and i have toyo 888 on light 18 Volk wheels.

Nice! Question, though....do you always race w/your AC on?

[per]

Originally Posted by whats77inaname

Nice! Question, though....do you always race w/your AC on?

It was a hot day...., actually did forget to shut it off

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by whats77inaname

Nice! Question, though....do you always race w/your AC on?

Saw that during the pull AC was not on ! After the pull ( the rolling out ) yes AC was on...
So it was a roll pull , but saw that the ///M3 had some kind of jump pull and even in this situation the Turbo-S came more than only along...
That's what I saw !

[tinman831]

Doesn't the AC compressor shut off when you're heavy on the throttle anyways?