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02-22-2013, 10:53 PM | #111 | |
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99 percent of people want to see a rung what ya brung-head to head, out of the box tunes on two equally fast cars that are proved to be equally fast. This is getting ridiculous the nitpicking. People who are not interested in the race as its being described maybe should build their own test and start a new thread |
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02-23-2013, 12:48 AM | #112 | ||
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Cool video bro! This isn't my first time comparing two tuned cars with similar mods. My old friend and I had the same car (STi) with the exact same mod and tuner, we were tuned on the same day after finalizing near exact modifications to our cars. After the tuning the cars never left each others side. Prior to that I had the most the modifications and he had just a few of them, I took him. This is something I will base my judgement off because I have witnessed and experienced it myself, a real before and after of what a tune did for him. There is nothing wrong with comparing cars this way, it has been done for years. Years before your vbox was established. Lets just say I am old fashioned. Quote:
Still enjoyable to hear everybody's comments! |
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02-23-2013, 01:05 AM | #113 | |
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You see this was posted in the technical area of the forum and some people like to keep it just that. I for one am not trying to stir up shit but rather my interest is in the betterment of this community by sharing my knowledge (and the others I mentioned are only doing the same) so that others can learn and benefit from it. This whole thing will be great fun I am sure, and I would love to be able to be there with them just for the fun of it. All any of us wanted to do was assist the OP's in this thread by suggesting ways to eliminate some of the many variables that were inevitably going to exist in this "Test" since the OP's started off the thread implying that it would be just that, a test. So I am sure that the guys are going to have fun doing this, I know I would. If the OP's are actually interested in getting some concrete and tangible info out of this, there are people on here that would love to help with setting out some parameters to make the info a lot more valid. Even if it can't be 100% accurate since 2 different cars are being used, at least the info could be recorded in a way that something useful could be taken out of it......... I thought that is what the OP's were after, tangible, useful info on the tunes in question!? |
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02-23-2013, 01:57 AM | #114 | |
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02-23-2013, 07:47 AM | #115 |
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Thanks for all the suggestions we both are taking them into account the main thing is lets see how it goes, do our runs, and if the forum/mass (including us) think we can better it or something was that far off then the vbox idea will probably be used...No ones ideas are being bashed or cut down non of us are professionals we just share the same passion and are learning along the way
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02-23-2013, 09:16 AM | #116 | |
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120ms at 130mph equates to 23 feet. Not negligible... Last edited by CanAutM3; 02-23-2013 at 11:35 PM.. |
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02-23-2013, 09:25 AM | #117 | |
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02-23-2013, 10:32 AM | #118 | |||
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Yes a vbox would be a nice addition to the test however no one expects you to purchase one if you don't want to.......maybe someone will loan you guys one if someone on the forums has one in that area. One other thing that would be nice would be to weigh the cars with drivers and ballast the lighter one to the same weight as the heavier one...... I realize that having access to a scale to weigh the cars may be hard to do. All of these suggestions are only to allow the "TUNES" to be compared as equally as you guys have the resources to do so. Quote:
You always add useful info to the forum and I enjoy your professionalism. Quote:
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02-23-2013, 12:02 PM | #119 |
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With all due respect as I know you are an expert in engines and you do that for a living, there are a few things which are just plain wrong.
1. Why would wheels and tires matter if a stock baseline is established where equality is established? I agree if no stock runs were established than this would be a bare minimum but for whatever reason, one car may be a bit faster than the other but maybe its heavier wheels will equalize it to the slightly slower car with stock wheels or vice versa (just an example). The bottom line is if they can establish equal stock runs than all of that stuff does not matter. If during a stock run, one car is faster than the other than they need to equalize the stock runs. Maybe adding a passenger in the faster car or adding weight etc. But once stock is equality is determined than none of those variables matter and there is absoolutely no need for someone to change their wheels and tires. You need to start looking at the end metric here which is at these speeds whether the two cars run side-by side. "how" they do it is irrelevent in terms of one may be heavier than the other. You are getting caught in the fine details and missing the big picture. 2. Running through a few tanks of gas to have them adapt? The cars fully adapt after a couple pulls of full throttle. That makes no sense that it would take even one full tank for an advanced ionic knock system to finally adapt to timing. it would defeat the purpose. Its able to adapt within a run or two to maximize timing and maximize engine output for all variables. Adaptations happen within pulls, they don't happen over tanks of gas. Again you are creating problems here that complicate this but don't even contribute to being more accurate. The only important thing is the cars having the same mods in terms of response to tuning. Catless setup really is the only one that matters (or HFC) which both have. That really is the only factor that a tune may respond differently to. Besides octane which I agree is a huge factor as hitting the timing targets of a tune with a car down on octane would potentially prevent the car from getting as much out of a tune as a car with higher octane. So catless setup and equal octane is the only two factors in addition to equal stock runs that matters. You could put 5 pound wheels on one car with 2 passengers and it may be equal to a stock wheel car with no passengers and as long as you are only changing the ECU/tune variable given same octane nad catless, than it does not change the metric of whether the tune is adding x amount of hp |
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02-23-2013, 12:37 PM | #120 |
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02-23-2013, 12:59 PM | #121 | |
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2) burning a couple of tanks of fuel ensures that the tanks have fuel that is not a mixture of a few different octane ratings which give a cocktail that would be impossible to determine without sampling it and testing it for the AKI or RON number. Since these engines are so dependant on timing to make power, fuel is one of the most important factors here. That ionic knock sensing system can be your friend or your enemy depending on fuel quality. One example of the octane rating being skewed would be if any of the cars had ethanol blended fuel in them (although not as common in Europe it is still available). Ethanol has a tendency to settle to the bottom of the tank which could put the pump in pure ethanol which has an RON rating of 108.6 and an AKI of 99, pretty easy to tell what effect that would have on timing, right? So again the couple tanks of fuel are just to ensure what is in the tank as an assurance of fuel type an octane rating of the fuel in both cars. I am not going to waste any more time discussing this with you than what is above. Advise the OP's on the proper testing method since you think you know that should be and none of the rest of us do!!! Also, kindly overlook any of my posts as I won't reply if all you want to do is try and discredit. You haven't attempted to add any value to this thread whatsoever, you were just there to jump on someone you didn't agree with. I have already established a reputation on this forum and I hold a government issued license that is recognized world wide saying that i am qualified to work on engines, not to mention hundreds of hours of technical training and tens of thousands of hours of experience. Fortunately I don't need your blessing to uphold either my licence or my reputation. To the OP's I will reply to any questions and I hope this ends up being a fun and informative process for you guys. *NOTE: I wrote this post on my iPhone and apologize in advance of any grammatical or spelling errors in. I will clean it up when I get in front of a computer. |
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02-23-2013, 06:50 PM | #122 | |
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Absolutely fantastic. The program itself and this particular application. It causes me to recall an old and heavily contested thread here long ago where multiple individuals claimed that D2 is measurably faster than higher D modes. As you might guess I argues against that. I would say that this settles that argument once and for all and provides us some very nice insights into Drivelogic modes and how they affect performance. I believe I also recall many claims that Drivelogic modes will overall not make a significant effect on real world performance. I think this settles that as well. One additional test I'd love to see is S5 with tracton control off vs. S5 with traction control on. My contention has always been that the power shift effect, wheel spin and additional flywheel angular momentum being dumped into the drive train simply MUST give this mode a measurable advantage.
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02-23-2013, 07:14 PM | #123 | |
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If you both fill up at the same station, do a few pulls and both have spark plugs changed within the same relative period, than also given the stock cars pulled equally, multiple tanks is simply not at all necessary. Not discrediting you but you also fail to actually address the point but rather give another arguement for a different situation. You seemingly can't see the point and assumption that the first step is two cars running equal on a stock ECU. I obviously agree this step needs to happen or else subsequent tests are meaningless but when and if they are equal all of that other stuff about wheels and distribution of weight is meaningless |
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02-23-2013, 11:31 PM | #124 | |
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All we need is someone with a vbox willing to do some runs in the various "S" modes with DSC on and off. I could do it, but would need to wait until spring when my summers are back on . Last edited by CanAutM3; 02-23-2013 at 11:37 PM.. |
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02-24-2013, 12:18 AM | #125 | ||
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02-24-2013, 11:30 AM | #126 |
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I went from 6 MT to DCT for these milliseconds
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02-24-2013, 12:52 PM | #127 | |
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You are correct in the fact that if they run exactly the same for the baseline runs then they "should" be apples and apples. I found that the effects of rotational mass appears to be independent of vehicle power after doing some further reading (equivalent mass). The one thing that different wheel/tire sizes will effect is gear ratios so it is imperative that they be the same. Anyhow, in comparing "TUNES" one needs to eliminate all variables possible. In comparing the "CARS" to one and other that is not important. The for the software to work the (DME) ECM has to recieve inputs from the various input devices (sensors) on the vehicle and make outputs to the various actuators (cam phasers, fuel injectors, ignition coils, etc). By testing two different cars slight differences in signals from the input devices (which are inevitable and uncontrollable due to production variances) and slight differences in the output actions by the actuators (also inevitable and uncontrollable) are going to effect the outcome numbers of the software flash when installed on two different cars. Although all of these components are very precisely made, there is always an allowable range of their operation be it electrical (the actual voltage it sends to the ecm which will be effected by variances in internal resistance and the PTC or NTC bias built into some thermistors) or linear/rotational (actual amount of movement from a cam phaser for a given oil pressure, probably accurate to fractions of a degree, but still any variance will have an effect) or the amount of fuel delivered by an injector at a specified duty cycle. If you can see all of the slight variances that can exist hopefully you can see the importance of having software tested on the same car for 100% validity...... Granted the variances are usually extremely minute but they exist none the less and this is why seemingly identical stock and modified cars never make exact numbers.
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02-24-2013, 09:31 PM | #128 | |
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1. Swap drivers (I think that was already mentioned) 2. Repeat the testing many times both before and after the new software. Statistics and very good at separating systematic (real tune gains) effects from random effects.
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02-24-2013, 09:36 PM | #129 | |
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Those two scenarios will answer the OP's original question with level of specificity and utility that is tangible and beneficial to the average end user. Bottom line this is cleary and unscientific but still nicely thought out and well controlled for what it is and should be a great watch. Sadly seems like these kind of posts never actually lead to the race or test actually happening. Will be nice if it does! |
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02-25-2013, 03:02 AM | #130 | |
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02-25-2013, 03:07 AM | #131 | ||
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I still think that if both are even stock this should be a great comaprison for the tunes. Just to see if one simply pulls harder than the other post tune. I doubt this may happen but that is what we are wanting to find out. |
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02-25-2013, 03:08 AM | #132 | |
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