If BMW wants to sell M3s, let them REV!

[e36jakeo]

I have read countless posts about test drives in M3s where the tester says "I didn't get to go beyond 5000 RPM, but man did it seem like it was/would be fast!" The dealerships are lame for not keeping a dedicated demo car, breaking it in (>1200 miles) and then letting people REALLY test drive it.

Folks who only drive it at <5000 RPM (or 6000 RPM, for that matter) are driving a car that is considerably slower than a 335i or 135i that is allowed to use up to 6000 RPM of its powerband. This is due to the relatively low torque (295 lb ft) in the M3's V8 vs about 320 lbs in the 335i from 1400 to 5000 RPM. If you raced both cars from a dead stop and were forced to shift the M3 <6000 RPM the 335i would win every time. It is only above 6000 where the gearing advantage and sustained torque of the V8 makes the M3 truly "fast."

So if BMW really wants to sell some M3s (which, as other threads have stated, are being sold at, or under, MSRP in many areas) let people experience the M-factor!

[JEllis]

BMW is not having any problems selling M3's.....

Jason

[OzStriker]

True...But then you go around a corner:

[e36jakeo]

And how many dealerships take prospective buyers on curvey roads???

And Jason, I got a call out of the blue from a dealership in Nor Cal I had visited months ago offerring to sell me their M3 at MSRP. I am sure I could negotiate below MSRP if they are coming right out and offering MSRP. They are not selling like hot cakes.

Back to the original post, it is freakin' lame to test drive a car designed to reve to 8400 at <5000 RPM!

[OzStriker]

My dealer has a route that takes you through the twisties:

http://www.doncasterbmw.com.au/scrip...sp?PageID=6491

One off-camber hairpin taken at 80kph sold me on the M3, even though the drive was <5,500rpm

[93HardTopTurbo]

I got to take the E90 M3 I test drove to redline in second and 8K in 3rd at WOT. The bloody thing really comes alive after 6K and by 7K I'm completely thrilled. I also did this in the rain and you could total feel the traction and stability controls working - it was fantastic!

[DJ9]

Originally Posted by e36jakeo

And how many dealerships take prospective buyers on curvey roads???

And Jason, I got a call out of the blue from a dealership in Nor Cal I had visited months ago offerring to sell me their M3 at MSRP. I am sure I could negotiate below MSRP if they are coming right out and offering MSRP. They are not selling like hot cakes.

Back to the original post, it is freakin' lame to test drive a car designed to reve to 8400 at <5000 RPM!

Where exactly are you located up here? Curious to see if you're speaking of the dealer I have in mind...will be comedy if so.

[jtown]

I just drove one today w/ 40 miles on the odo and up to 8k. The thing rips through twisties and stops on a dime. It is one sick ass machine man. Go to the right dealership or wait until the demo hits 1.2k miles.

[Big Windy]

not being able to go over 5,000 sucks...but if BMW can sell the M3 anyway, why spend the time breaking in the demo and then having to lose money by selling it with 2,000 miles on it?

[OzCarfreak]

Originally Posted by JEllis

BMW is not having any problems selling M3's.....

Jason

they are in this country

[EricFother]

Originally Posted by OzCarfreak

they are in this country

Are they really?

Guess that would make sense as I saw a red one sitting on the showroom of Sale BMW in Kinston, NC. I asked if they were just waiting for the owner to pick it up, they replied that it was not sold. When I talked to them 6 months ago they said they were already 5 orders deep...I guess not.

Other problem might be the price. $60K for not many options and $67K+ for one all tricked out is quite a bit IMO. And by IMO...I should probably say...outside of my budget. Not trying to start a flame war as the arguments about value and "bang for the buck" have already been made.

Eric

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by EricFother

Guess that would make sense as I saw a red one sitting on the showroom of Sale BMW in Kinston, NC.

Notice he's in Australia, not the US.

Jury is still out in the US, but as more than one person has pointed out, no time in recent memory have dealerships actually taken to calling up prospective buyers during the launch of a new M car and offering to sell them the one from the showroom @ MSRP.

[Buschy]

I think someone posted a graph on here showing that the 335 is not faster at lower rpms then the m3.
due to the gearing in the m3 the power in low rpms is there jsut like the 335.
so even at under 5k I think its still faster.
btw, get a new dealer, mine let me drive the car like I stole it.

[alpineweissM3]

I agree, you're positively missing the best aspect of the M3 if you don't run it to redline. I respect, though don't totally understand, why numerous posters here have stated that they "respected the 5500 RPM limit".

I have driven both a coupe and a sedan @ my dealer, and both times I (and surprisingly my wife) have taken the car to redline.

Words can't describe sound / power of the V8 on it's way to redline.

Simply stunning.

[Leg]

Originally Posted by e36jakeo

I have read countless posts about test drives in M3s where the tester says "I didn't get to go beyond 5000 RPM, but man did it seem like it was/would be fast!" The dealerships are lame for not keeping a dedicated demo car, breaking it in (>1200 miles) and then letting people REALLY test drive it.

Folks who only drive it at <5000 RPM (or 6000 RPM, for that matter) are driving a car that is considerably slower than a 335i or 135i that is allowed to use up to 6000 RPM of its powerband. This is due to the relatively low torque (295 lb ft) in the M3's V8 vs about 320 lbs in the 335i from 1400 to 5000 RPM. If you raced both cars from a dead stop and were forced to shift the M3 <6000 RPM the 335i would win every time. It is only above 6000 where the gearing advantage and sustained torque of the V8 makes the M3 truly "fast."

So if BMW really wants to sell some M3s (which, as other threads have stated, are being sold at, or under, MSRP in many areas) let people experience the M-factor!

Do you sit at home staring at the wall desperately trying to find things to whinge about?

Is there not a running in period on that 3.0 shopping trolley with a couple of hairdryers strapped to it too? I suspect there probably is.

Anyway, you answered your own question. Why do they not have any >1200 miles M3's? Thats right, because they sold them. Duh.

[devo]

Originally Posted by e36jakeo

I have read countless posts about test drives in M3s where the tester says "I didn't get to go beyond 5000 RPM, but man did it seem like it was/would be fast!" The dealerships are lame for not keeping a dedicated demo car, breaking it in (>1200 miles) and then letting people REALLY test drive it.

Folks who only drive it at <5000 RPM (or 6000 RPM, for that matter) are driving a car that is considerably slower than a 335i or 135i that is allowed to use up to 6000 RPM of its powerband. This is due to the relatively low torque (295 lb ft) in the M3's V8 vs about 320 lbs in the 335i from 1400 to 5000 RPM. If you raced both cars from a dead stop and were forced to shift the M3 <6000 RPM the 335i would win every time. It is only above 6000 where the gearing advantage and sustained torque of the V8 makes the M3 truly "fast."

So if BMW really wants to sell some M3s (which, as other threads have stated, are being sold at, or under, MSRP in many areas) let people experience the M-factor!

You have some valid points. But, it is not the sustained torque of the M3 engine above 6000 rpm that provides the rush you are refering to. It is the abundance of horsepower.

[mkoesel]

Besides the financial issue that many dealers would probably have with this (designated demo), I see one other issue: getting people to appreciate the car. If someone has to be coaxed to buy an M, then likely they are not exactly experienced with a performance car. Not everyone knows how to (or even feels comfortable) revving a car to redline and slamming it into the next gear. I think M-DCT will change this somewhat since after all only 10% or probably less people even consider manual transmissions these days.

[Keto]

With the economy the way it is, is any car selling like hotcakes? In another thread, a guy waiting for an ISF went from #18 to ordering in about a week. I was #10 for the M3 at one point, being offered an order only if I wanted 6MT and 18's, and then I ordered 2 weeks later. The GT-R might be the exception here due to limited supply, but I suspect it will not be too hard to get one -- all the videogame addicts (not a slight, just where the car became famous in the US) who were "stretching" to buy one now can't stretch so much.

Thankfully I work in a relatively recession-proof industry. People who quit their jobs to renovate and flip houses are likely back at work, however

[jm1234]

Originally Posted by e36jakeo

Folks who only drive it at <5000 RPM (or 6000 RPM, for that matter) are driving a car that is considerably slower than a 335i or 135i that is allowed to use up to 6000 RPM of its powerband. This is due to the relatively low torque (295 lb ft) in the M3's V8 vs about 320 lbs in the 335i from 1400 to 5000 RPM. If you raced both cars from a dead stop and were forced to shift the M3 <6000 RPM the 335i would win every time. It is only above 6000 where the gearing advantage and sustained torque of the V8 makes the M3 truly "fast."

This is an oft quoted sentiment that I can't make sense of. I've run the numbers and the M3 is putting down ~25% more torque than the 335 at the rear wheels (after the final drive gears down the engine RPM). It's high school physics that anything you gear to go slower (an 8,400 rpm red line engine with the same shift points as a 7,000 rpm red line engine) will have more power. The driver can't tell how much torque a car is putting down at the flywheel and those are the numbers quoted. When driving you don't feel flywheel torque you feel rear wheel torque and it's higher in the M3. The possible exception to this is down low (<15 mph) when the engine is getting into it's power band (I don't have accurate torque numbers) but even in that range the wheel traction is the main limit on torque and the (ever so slightly) larger wheels in the M3 should transmit more torque to the ground (and the drivers ass).

What people might be feeling and reporting is that the 335 quickly builds to max torque (by 10 mph) whereas the M3 takes much longer (nearly 20 mph) to reach a much higher max torque and thus feels "slower" initially (but only in comparison to itself not in comparison to the 335)? If you shift sooner on the M3 then the 335 will seem to pull hard longer but only because it reached it's peak much sooner and not because the peak is higher. If the M3 is slower with short shifts it's probably the shift speed and the fact that a higher gear produces less torque and not a result of the torque available from the engine. At any given speed in the same gear the M3 will out torque the 335 where it counts (at the wheels).

Note: The "335i (modified)" curve in the chart is from the power band for the Dinan tune.

[JEllis]

Originally Posted by OzCarfreak

they are in this country

You gents are really struggling with the process in which BMW's are sold, or any other car for that matter.

All BMW's sitting at dealerships are already sold in the eyes of BMW. They already have the profit from those cars sitting in there huge BMW bank. Maybe you do not realize this but dealer cars (cars actually sitting on the lot) were bought and paid for by the dealer at what we call "invoice" price (the price they pay BMW for the car). Now if you consider that most dealers have about double the amount of M3's that were available back in 2001, you can clearly see the BMW (not the dealers) are doing great selling new M3's.

And finally, you gents are really over estimating the demand for floor model M3's especially with BMW's aggressive sales goals that are allowing for an only two month waiting list for this new car. All this despite there being 10 people on average per waiting list. Consider the fact that about 75% of new M3's sold are customer specced cars and not dealer cars.

Jason

[ideliver]

Originally Posted by e36jakeo

I have read countless posts about test drives in M3s where the tester says "I didn't get to go beyond 5000 RPM, but man did it seem like it was/would be fast!" The dealerships are lame for not keeping a dedicated demo car, breaking it in (>1200 miles) and then letting people REALLY test drive it.

"My" dealership got the car on launch day eve...and I drove it at 10:00 am on launch day...the car had only been driven to get gas.

I am not going to abuse the car, that will be sold to a fellow enthusiast. Show some respect for other people's property.

Originally Posted by e36jakeo

Folks who only drive it at <5000 RPM (or 6000 RPM, for that matter) are driving a car that is considerably slower than a 335i or 135i that is allowed to use up to 6000 RPM of its powerband. This is due to the relatively low torque (295 lb ft) in the M3's V8 vs about 320 lbs in the 335i from 1400 to 5000 RPM. If you raced both cars from a dead stop and were forced to shift the M3 <6000 RPM the 335i would win every time. It is only above 6000 where the gearing advantage and sustained torque of the V8 makes the M3 truly "fast."

I am not taking a test drive to try to duplicate C&D 0-60 or 0-100-0 times. I am trying to get a feel for the machine, its driving characterstics, its balance. Not its drag strip speed.

Originally Posted by e36jakeo

So if BMW really wants to sell some M3s (which, as other threads have stated, are being sold at, or under, MSRP in many areas) let people experience the M-factor!

I seriously doubt that letting people abuse demo cars is going to sell more cars. It may increase the number of joy ride seekers, but would not sell any more cars.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by ideliver

I am not going to abuse the car, that will be sold to a fellow enthusiast. Show some respect for other people's property.

Um. Wow.

...keeping a dedicated demo car...

Doesn't it make more sense to be a little less hostile toward people so that when you make a reading mistake you don't a) look real dumb and b) get treated so hostily in return yourself?