Leaving the E9X M3 for F8X M3? Don't give up your E9X for anything

[aus]

Originally Posted by Prince_of_Persia

Haha I was gonna say this in my thread, but was afraid to get banned again lol it had NOTHING to do with vs. Stingray. And btw the Golf was praised more than the M4.

Agreed. They're just covering up ANY negativity towards the car. BMW can't afford to have another M5 situation where they start piling up on dealer lots 2 years in. They KNOW it's because of bad reviews.

Originally Posted by W///

Go drive one for yourself. I really can't say this enough. For one "bad" review, I can point out another that LOVED the F80/2 vs the E9x. IMHO, it doesn't make sense to post 1 little paragraph and say "See, I told you so"! If most people in this thread went out and drove one, and came back and said, "No I'm keeping my E9x until the day I die", then that would be completely understandable.

After the M4 test drive, I can say that I was close to clearing house (sell not just 1 M3, but 2) to get a brand new F80. I've said it a million times before, no it doesn't sound anywhere as good as the V8. But at the same time, I also like the sound from the new 3 cylinder engine as well as 6cyl diesels.

But what you lose in sound (I don't think it's an issue personally), you get a car that is/has:
- Way better brakes. I don't see an E9x with aftermarket pads matching the new brake system from F80/2. They are Porsche good, really.
- A hell of a stiff chassis
- Welded rear subframe
- Torque
- Warranty (maybe it doesn't matter for you, but I drive an 08)
- Supposedly better MT

I guess it's maybe because I've never had 1) a brand new car I custom ordered, 2) a warranty (that's right, never had a car with a warranty before) that makes me consider jumping ship. If you like the E92 so much and want to fix the "issues" I mentioned, you are looking at
- Supercharger
- BBK
- Rod bearings (a must IMHO)
- Solid subframe bushings + diff bushings

It all adds up. There's still M taxes at work here. Can I see someone doing that (myself included)? Sure! I absolutely maintain that the S65 is one of the most special engines you can get for this price range.

I decided to keep the E92, and leave it as it is for now. When I get to a certain mileage, I'll do the rod bearings and rear bushings. I'll divert the rest of the $ towards an LCI F80 or an M2 to add to the E92. That way, there'll be no regrets of letting the E92 go.

Just stimulating conversation. We all know the F8x is a beast.
Maybe I'm less impressed because I have the BBK already, along with tune and EVO exhaust. It's WAY more car than I need on the track.

.

[jc05e46m3]

Originally Posted by W///

Damn, really guys? I think this one of the sexiest cars BMW has ever made

Im with you, whole heartedly... I still miss my E46 some days.

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by jc05e46m3

I feel you. You need to upgrade to 625 kit, though. I have experience with that and they are insane.

Honestly, I don't feel like I need to upgrade, maybe it's cause there's 94octane at the pump(saw a huge difference between 91 and 94oct) here and I live in a good elevation but the car is plenty fast as is, just to give you an idea, even when I had the stock cats and the 535 pulley(now have test pipes and 550 pulley), I was running side by side with DCT F10 M5, beated a Gallardo, beated CBR600, beated CTS-V and was 1/2 car behind an SLS to 100mph, and now my car run even stronger.

Maybe one day I'll feel the need for more but I really think I'm done modding my E92, I don't feel like paying an other $4-5k plus the trouble of shipping parts and installation just to get an other 50-70hp! I prefer to keep this money for the car that will replace my Evo, maybe a used TT RS, used RS5 or even a brand new RS3 sedan if it end up coming out in canada, I need something fun in the snow and would prefer something a bit more luxurious then my Evo x MR!

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by jc05e46m3

It is an interesting point, however, that BMS specifically tells us that shifting in the 6Ks will yield the best accel simply because the s55 isnt in its sweet spot up top and that is where the s65 does shine....but still not as strong. I think the people who complain the most about the top end (and 99% of them havent even driven the car) don't get the "sensation of speed" because the car is pulling like a frieght train from 3K on, so in essence, they think it's lacking. For some people that sensation is what they want (after being used to a beast NA or SC engine. There is a trade-off, but I think it's worth it.

That is exactly what I said many pages ago and nobody wanted to believe it. I guess now that a Certified tuner said it maybe people will listen.

Here was my statement
"I see your point but my point is optimal shifting is 500-700 over peak power. The car will be faster in the 5000-6700 range than the 5700-7400 range"

My point was that you dont get that feel or the higher revs and people really notice. It is the same as some of the vettes, fast as hell but they do not rev. That is part of the fun of driving it.

[jc05e46m3]

Originally Posted by Alex07M3

Honestly, I don't feel like I need to upgrade, maybe it's cause there's 94octane at the pump(saw a huge difference between 91 and 94oct) here and I live in a good elevation but the car is plenty fast as is, just to give you an idea, even when I had the stock cats and the 535 pulley(now have test pipes and 550 pulley), I was running side by side with DCT F10 M5, beated a Gallardo, beated CBR600, beated CTS-V and was 1/2 car behind an SLS to 100mph, and now my car run even stronger.

Maybe one day I'll feel the need for more but I really think I'm done modding my E92, I don't feel like paying an other $4-5k plus the trouble of shipping parts and installation just to get an other 50-70hp! I prefer to keep this money for the car that will replace my Evo, maybe a used TT RS, used RS5 or even a brand new RS3 sedan if it end up coming out in canada, I need something fun in the snow and would prefer something a bit more luxurious then my Evo x MR!

I get it. Now imagine an F8x on E30-E50 mix... ~-20 to+10whp and +165-225 wtq. It's capable of being a lazer, even in stock form.

[aus]

Who really run E30 or E50 on a regular basis? What a pain in the ass.
I saw TurboMike at the track mixing in ethanol, and thought that's just too much work, not to mention the risk of driving around with a trunk full of the stuff.

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by jc05e46m3

I get it. Now imagine an F8x on E30-E50 mix... ~-20 to+10whp and +165-225 wtq. It's capable of being a lazer, even in stock form.

That'd probably VERY fast but I'm not sure I'd like to have that kind of power without AWD! I think the next RS5 will be more to my taste then this M4, even more so since the last v6tt that Audi builded(15years ago) was a hell of an engine, AND it sounded very good, specially compared to the S55!

[Petros]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

Here was my statement
"I see your point but my point is optimal shifting is 500-700 over peak power. The car will be faster in the 5000-6700 range than the 5700-7400 range"

.

Totally wrong, at least for the manual gearbox version (not sure about DCT yet). All that talk about sweet spot is meaningless since it fails to take into account gear ratios. For all of the first 3 upshifts with the manual you would be better off shifting at redline. Only going from 4th to 5th it's better to shift at around 6500 rpm. Do the calculations and you'll see it.

Here are the gear ratios I found for the 6MT:

1st: 4.11, 2nd: 2.32, 3rd: 1.54, 4th: 1.18, 5th: 1

[ChrisK]

The new M3/M4 looks good, but I cant get past the sound. I could even live with the turbo.

If BMW had only gotten the M3/M4 sound right (heck I'll settle for Good!) I may have been temped.

Of course knowing the BMW marketing machine that I do. Let's see what the performance exhaust will sound like - you know they have one

[kscarrol]

^ This! Was at the dealer today for a minor repair and had a chance to sit in the first M4 my dealer has received. Already sold but my salesman let me sit in it and start the car but no driving. The cold start sound was not good IMO!! Maybe the MPE or an after market exhaust will help...

Overall I thought the car was a good looking car in the flesh. As previously reported the interior was very nice and I really liked the HUD with MPH and tach display...

EDIT: I will say that overall the M4 I sat in was a very nice car. Still need to actually drive one but will definitely give it a hard look in a couple of years as my E90 ages...

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by Petros

Totally wrong, at least for the manual gearbox version (not sure about DCT yet). All that talk about sweet spot is meaningless since it fails to take into account gear ratios. For all of the first 3 upshifts with the manual you would be better off shifting at redline. Only going from 4th to 5th it's better to shift at around 6500 rpm. Do the calculations and you'll see it.

Here are the gear ratios I found for the 6MT:

1st: 4.11, 2nd: 2.32, 3rd: 1.54, 4th: 1.18, 5th: 1

The torque fall off is drastic although the power is pretty flat, therefore taking it all the way to redline will result in slower trap speeds. Burger even says so.

[s85e90]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

The torque fall off is drastic although the power is pretty flat, therefore taking it all the way to redline will result in slower trap speeds. Burger even says so.

That's only b/c the turbos are falling off. Once someone can manipulate the electric wastegates or run diff turbos this thing will make 700-800 HP watch. Bigger turbos may add some lag down low but will pull upstairs. Once the cars in the powerband it will never fall out anyways.

[s85e90]

Originally Posted by ChrisK

The new M3/M4 looks good, but I cant get past the sound. I could even live with the turbo.

If BMW had only gotten the M3/M4 sound right (heck I'll settle for Good!) I may have been temped.

Of course knowing the BMW marketing machine that I do. Let's see what the performance exhaust will sound like - you know they have one

It's already out and sounds like ASS> BMW turbo cars need to ditch the twin pipe exhaust setup and run a true SINGLE exhaust to the rear cans and it will start sounding like a proper inline 6.

[modkrazy]

Originally Posted by ChrisK

The new M3/M4 looks good, but I cant get past the sound. I could even live with the turbo.

If BMW had only gotten the M3/M4 sound right (heck I'll settle for Good!) I may have been temped.

Of course knowing the BMW marketing machine that I do. Let's see what the performance exhaust will sound like - you know they have one

I posted a clip earlier of MPE. Sounds much better. Considering I hate the stock sound in videos but don't mind it in person, MPE in person will be great. But it will be 8 grand so who cares.

[M3/4 life]

Originally Posted by Ezio

why because we all went from a E46 to a E92?

Cant see my self owning a 6 cylinder turbo engine anytime soon.

+1

[Petros]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

The torque fall off is drastic although the power is pretty flat, therefore taking it all the way to redline will result in slower trap speeds. Burger even says so.

No idea who this Burger is.

According to this link ( http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...fications.aspx ) the gear ratios in gears 1 to 5 for the manual are (4.11,2.32,1.54,1.18,1) and for the automatic are (4.81,2.59,1.7,1.28,1).

Now torque at the driveshaft for the manual in 2nd gear will be engine torque multiplied by 2.32, and in 1st gear it will be engine torque multiplied by 4.11. That means that for the same torque at the driveshaft, the engine in 2nd gear has to produce 1.77 times the torque that it would have had to produce if it was in 1st gear (4.11/2.32=1.77). Similarly, 3rd to 2nd gear, 4th to 3rd, and 5th to 4th will yield the folllowing ratios respectively: 1.51, 1.31, and 1.18.

For the DCT auto, we get the following ratios by doing the same calculation: 1.86, 1.52, 1.33, 1.28.

Now look at the dyno:

As you can see, we get peak torque of 400 lb ft from 3k rpm to about 4.5 k rpm and then the torque gradually drops to about 280 lb ft just before the redline at just over 7400 rpm.

Now going back to our calculations for a manual gearbox, the 280 lb ft of torque in 1st gear will be equivalent to 496 lb of torque in 2nd gear (280*1.77=496). As the dyno shows, that is more torque than the engine is capable of at any rpm. That means that at redline in 1st gear the engine is still delivering more torque at the driveshaft than it would have at any rpm in 2nd gear. Similarly at 2nd gear the 280 lb ft would be equivalent to 423 in 3rd, which also means shifting at redline is still the best. Now from 3rd to 4th you will find that at the point the engine in 3rd is making about 305 lb of torque that is the same as 400 lb ft in 4th (305*1.31=400). That point is achieved at about 7000 rpm, and staying in 3rd after that will lead to less torque at the driveshaft than upshifting to 4th. So going from 3rd to 4th and shortshifting at 7k rpm is the best. Similarly, going from 4th to 5th, you get 339 lb of torque in 4th translates to 400 lb ft of torque in 5th (339*1.18=400). From the dyno chart, we see that 339 lb ft of torque is produced at about 6200 rpm. Therefore, the optimal shift point for 4th to 5th gear is about 6200 rpm.

Moving on to the double clutch auto, let`s focus on the 1st to 2nd upshift. 280lb of torque in 1st equals 520 lb ft of torque in 2nd, so clearly staying till redline is the best. Similarly, 280 lbft in 2nd equal 426 lbft in 3d, so once again redlining the engine is optimal. Now from 3rd to 4th it`s different. We get 300 lb ft in 3rd to equal 400 lb ft in 4th (300*1.33=400). So we need to upshift as soon as the torque drops below 300 lb ft of torque, and that is around 7200 rpm. Similarly, 4th to 5th will give us an optimal shift point of about 6700 rpm or so.

As my calculations show, for 1st gear through to 3rd gear for both manual and auto gearboxes, it is always optimal to shift at redline because the gear ratios are set up such that wheel torque is always higher in the lower gear. Even going into 4th and 5th, the optimal shift point might come down a bit, but it`s still pretty close to redline. You definitely would not want to routinely short shift at 6k rpm like some people keep saying. Actually I have a feeling that a more detailed analysis of upshifting to 4th and 5th might reveal that redline is still the best option. I may need to graph the dyno charts and correct for gear ratios.

[W///]

Originally Posted by aus

Agreed. They're just covering up ANY negativity towards the car. BMW can't afford to have another M5 situation where they start piling up on dealer lots 2 years in. They KNOW it's because of bad reviews.




Just stimulating conversation. We all know the F8x is a beast.
Maybe I'm less impressed because I have the BBK already, along with tune and EVO exhaust. It's WAY more car than I need on the track.

.

Definitely, that's what a forum is for afterall. But I'm just urging E9x owners to go try the car for themselves. If you go in with an open mind, you might come away impressed with the car. And not with just torque and straight line speed either.

Let me put it this way: I went and test drove the M4 for about 25 mins. Then my friend (who is a forum member here, and knows how to drive pretty damn well) drove it for another 30 mins. Then I took my E92 out right afterwards to compare them.

I came to the conclusion that they are both GREAT cars. If I got rid of E92 and E36, I'd be enjoying the hell out of the F80. If I didn't (which is the current plan), I'm still enjoying the hell out of the E92 and E36. Let's be honest here, people keep talking about how M has sold out by going turbo route, but the E92 is hardly related to the E30 M3 is it?

P.S. The BBK might be comparable to F80/2 brakes. I really need to drive one to see if it's worth pulling the trigger or not. An FBO E9x still has no chance against a bone stock F80/2, in more or less any situation (track, mountain roads, city) if you ask me.

[Rupes]

Originally Posted by Petros

No idea who this Burger is.

This guy, and you should trust anything he tells you.

[Alex07M3]

^^^

[davesaddiction]

Originally Posted by W///

An FBO E9x still has no chance against a bone stock F80/2, in more or less any situation (track, mountain roads, city) if you ask me.

Here's the thing: how many of us bought an M3 for performance alone? If seeking pure performance, we would have all bought Corvettes, or paid more and gotten into GT-Rs. What makes an M3 unique is the entire package - the sensory, visual, and auditory experience, combined with the practicality of a car you can drive every day (even as a family man).

Of course the F8x will outperform the E9x in every "on paper" metric. The question is, do I care? Maybe one day I'll get the chance to drive one and it will speak to me the way my car did from the first test drive and continues to every time I drive it, but for me, personally, up to this point, I'm not yet moved by what I've seen and heard of the the new car.

[W///]

Originally Posted by davesaddiction

Here's the thing: how many of us bought an M3 for performance alone? If seeking pure performance, we would have all bought Corvettes, or paid more and gotten into GT-Rs. What makes an M3 unique is the entire package - the sensory, visual, and auditory experience, combined with the practicality of a car you can drive every day (even as a family man).

Of course the F8x will outperform the E9x in every "on paper" metric. The question is, do I care? Maybe one day I'll get the chance to drive one and it will speak to me the way my car did from the first test drive and continues to every time I drive it, but for me, personally, up to this point, I'm not yet moved by what I've seen and heard of the the new car.

That's exactly the point I'm making Dave.
- Sensory: check
- Visual: check, especially the F80
- Sound: it's not a V8, but I liked it a lot. More than E46, and easily as much as my E36. So it gets a check for me too
- Practicality: check

I'm telling you, for $66k brand new with the options I want (an F80), I can't think of a much better package for that price. I'd just pull up in the E90 M3, I'm sure some dealers will let you do a short test drive

P.S. The only thing I want to see is how reliable it'll be. If it's as needy as an E46, then no thanks. But if as reliable as my E36, or even my E92, then that'll be a huge plus for me

[nusevad]

[QUOTE=W///;16260610]
P.S. The only thing I want to see is how reliable it'll be. If it's as needy as an E46, then no thanks. QUOTE]

were e46 m3's that needy?