A lil spin out at Texas World Speedway

[CanAutM3]

After doing some , I stumbled on this:

http://www.bentleypublishers.com/aut...ry-831-14.html

I found it to be an interesting read. Gives another perspective. I might get the book to read it all .

[bigjae1976]

I kept DSC on until I could work on controlling oversteer. Not sanctioned by me...but I would powerslide around the corner down the street from me when I come home for lunch (no cars, no people...my street is empty during the day). There's a drift practice in Ennis, TX soon...PM me if you want the info. Denis in Ennis...that's cool! You HAVE to be comfortable with oversteer before you move to R-Comps...I'm sure you read my anti R-comp rant. Now that I've gotten better with oversteer, except when my car is on fire I feel good with r-comps and no DSC.

I think your brake to throttle transition upset the car. That is a somewhat fast corner. If you come flying off the brakes and then nail the throttle, you'll upset the car. The hardest thing to smooth out is your brake application and release. Personally, I think I'm smooth on the throttle and steering...not consistent on the brakes. Some turns, I will threshold brake and turn in while ease off the brake as I apply steering input...maximizing your traction circle. I use this when I go into the bus stop (MSRH CCW) or Diamond's Edge (MSRH CW) and that's a great place to work on your brake release. You're kind of forced to be smooth so you'll concentrate on it. In that particular turn you spun, IIRC, I'm braking just to scrub a little speed and give the front tires more grip so the car turns in. Nice and smooth on the steering and throttle. to the apex and then go. I think the next turn is the place to use trail braking since you've got 2 throw away corners. Basically you want to carry as much speed as deep as you can into the carousel. Then set yourself up for the exit on to the front straight.

My impressions is that the back end on the E9X M3 will come around whereas the E46 will understeer. The excellent thing about the E9X M3 is the rear end is quite controllable. My E46 feels so much more planted but that could be the coilovers.

Question...what do you do on a DCT car when you spin? No clutch? Do you throw it in "N"?

[930Man]

DCS should be off all the time!

[LiM3y]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

After doing some , I stumbled on this:

http://www.bentleypublishers.com/aut...ry-831-14.html

I found it to be an interesting read. Gives another perspective. I might get the book to read it all .

It's a "must have" book...

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Question...what do you do on a DCT car when you spin? No clutch? Do you throw it in "N"?

While having fun in an empty snow covered parking lot, the impression I was getting is that DCT is smart enough to detect that the car is in a spin and disengages the clutches.

[Jaypod]

Thanks for sharing - glad it was just a learning experience and no damage

[Car54]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

After doing some , I stumbled on this:

http://www.bentleypublishers.com/aut...ry-831-14.html

I found it to be an interesting read. Gives another perspective. I might get the book to read it all .

It's a must have I agree. And you should commit to reading it a few times...sometimes you just have to go back to the book as the concepts are hard to understand unless you experience it.

The racing in the rain chapter...I go back to read that every time I know I'll have a wet track day. Just can't commit to sliding the whole way through a corner so that I am not surprised when the car slides as the book suggests.

[Car54]

I love wet track driving honestly....it's all the intenseness with half the speed and wear and tear. I'm that guy that goes out every session and dogs others that whine about it with excuse after excuse.

I'm especially annoyed when my students pass on wet track sessions...and sometimes even go home early.

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by Car54

I love wet track driving honestly....it's all the intenseness with half the speed and wear and tear. I'm that guy that goes out every session and dogs others that whine about it with excuse after excuse.

I'm especially annoyed when my students pass on wet track sessions...and sometimes even go home early.

+1

Our 1st trackday this year was wet & cold 1-2c with snow on the grass in the AM.The preceeding days before I had e mails from most of the new students wanting to drop out due to the weather.We had a great day teaching proper exersizes with the majority of students commenting how much they learned in the crap conditions.We had one previous student out in his new GT3RS 4.0 on PSC's and he was out there the longest of anybody all day learning his car.Only saw his headlights a couple of times

[LiM3y]

Originally Posted by Car54

I love wet track driving honestly....it's all the intenseness with half the speed and wear and tear. I'm that guy that goes out every session and dogs others that whine about it with excuse after excuse.

I'm especially annoyed when my students pass on wet track sessions...and sometimes even go home early.

I slap on the street tires and enjoy it. One of my favourite track moments was at NHMS at Turn 2, realizing that I had corrected oversteer and regained my line before I realized that I was oversteering - it was like "Holy Shit, did I just do that?"*

My avatar left shows how wet it was...it was taken that day.

*(the answer is probably "No, MDM did it!", but please don't spoil my moment, and I definitely moved the steering wheel! My only other evidence is when I was driving on the Interstate and the truck in front shredded a front tire and I was already braking before I "thought" I should brake. However, I still don't trust those unconcious reactions!)

[Car54]

Into a lawnmower as in value or purpose? Hopefully the latter!

[dcstep]

I see lots of solid advice and analysis of your mistake(s). One or two car control clinics and a few autocross events will hone your recovery skills much more quickly than trying to learn it all on the track. Yes, you want to do perfect laps, but the reality is that you'll make mistakes and need to be able to recover from them. A couple of hours spent on a good, wet skidpad with good instruction will give you a year's worth of experience driving on the edge and over the edge.

Your slow reaction time tells me, not that you're slow, but you haven't been it that situation enough to make a brain-stem reaction required to adjust for the changing dynamics of the car. A good skid pad can give you the needed experience. Driving at and over the limit in AX also gives much of that needed experience.

Dave

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by dcstep

I see lots of solid advice and analysis of your mistake(s). One or two car control clinics and a few autocross events will hone your recovery skills much more quickly than trying to learn it all on the track. Yes, you want to do perfect laps, but the reality is that you'll make mistakes and need to be able to recover from them. A couple of hours spent on a good, wet skidpad with good instruction will give you a year's worth of experience driving on the edge and over the edge.

Your slow reaction time tells me, not that you're slow, but you haven't been it that situation enough to make a brain-stem reaction required to adjust for the changing dynamics of the car. A good skid pad can give you the needed experience. Driving at and over the limit in AX also gives much of that needed experience.

Dave

Good advice. My couple of offs are always at the forefront of my mind when I'm on the track. IMO, the 5 minutes I spent on the skid pad at the Performance Delivery Center during redelivery were invaluable to my car control skills. On my report cards from The Driver's Edge...car control is usually my highest mark. I could only imagine what a full day at the skid pad would do to improve my skills.

[dcstep]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Good advice. My couple of offs are always at the forefront of my mind when I'm on the track. IMO, the 5 minutes I spent on the skid pad at the Performance Delivery Center during redelivery were invaluable to my car control skills. On my report cards from The Driver's Edge...car control is usually my highest mark. I could only imagine what a full day at the skid pad would do to improve my skills.

Another very useful experience is a track day in the rain. My last Advanced M-School at VIR was in the rain on day-one. I was still getting up to 140+ mph after Oak Tree, but getting things hauled down there and at turn one after start/finish could be very exciting. I explored the limits of ABS more than once (BTW, if you modulate the brakes manually, the ABS works even better). Feeding in power and dealing with puddles and aquaplaning really gave a lot of car control experience in a short time.

Dave

[Estoril Blue]

A few thoughts:

You are modifying the car well in advance of your own skills. The mods you are making are holding back your learning. They are not making you a better driver, not making you faster and are increasing your risk of a major off. Going four off in one session TWICE is a major clue that you are over-driving the car. Most respected organizations will end your weekend with two offs total. It looks like you are aiming for speed in advance of the driver skills that will support it.

Driving on R comps when you are just now turning off DSC is very unwise. VERY. I would look at this seriously if I were you. The R comps will hold back your learning - and since you are just now turning off DSC - you don't have the skill set developed to deal with the less predictable and quicker loss of grip in R comps.

If you look at your throttle graphic - you seem to be uneven on the throttle.... stabbing at it. That shifts weight forward and back and forward - and makes the car inherently unstable. Just before the loss of control - look at your full braking, sudden brake release and then a sharp throttle input (with steering in).... which led to the spin.

And as others have noted - your corrections were far, far to slow to save you.

Did you have an instructor in the car?

[TXmtrhed]

TM,

If you're interested in getting some time on a skid pad, the LSRPCA is having a one day PDS on 4/28 at the Houston Police Academy. I've taken this class twice in the last year and a half, first in my 335 and then again last winter in the 1M. The class is split into 8 sessions, 4 in the morning and 4 in the afternoon and includes both a wet circular skid pad and an oval wet/dry skid pad exercise among others.

A bit pricey for non-PCA members but I personally thought it was worth while.
http://www.lsrpca.com/pds.htm

You driving at MSRH this weekend?

Paul

[bigjae1976]

It read the first post carefully...I thought you were in your E92 for some reason. When you add camber and a lot of front end grip...things change drastically. At least that's how my 330 was. I'd just understeer. After camber plates and fatter front tires...what a difference!

Originally Posted by dcstep

Another very useful experience is a track day in the rain. My last Advanced M-School at VIR was in the rain on day-one. I was still getting up to 140+ mph after Oak Tree, but getting things hauled down there and at turn one after start/finish could be very exciting. I explored the limits of ABS more than once (BTW, if you modulate the brakes manually, the ABS works even better). Feeding in power and dealing with puddles and aquaplaning really gave a lot of car control experience in a short time.

Dave

Yup...spent a weekend Motorsport Ranch in Cresson, TX. The older part of the track is like ice...learned a lot!

[OC3]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

After doing some , I stumbled on this:

http://www.bentleypublishers.com/aut...ry-831-14.html

I found it to be an interesting read. Gives another perspective. I might get the book to read it all .

Nice read.

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

... Question...what do you do on a DCT car when you spin? No clutch? Do you throw it in "N"?

Nothing. It'll downshift by itself, similar to when you coast to a stop at street without manually downshifting. It's like DCT does D-mode downshifting even when you're in S mode.

Originally Posted by LiM3y

I slap on the street tires and enjoy it. One of my favourite track moments was at NHMS at Turn 2, realizing that I had corrected oversteer and regained my line before I realized that I was oversteering - it was like "Holy Shit, did I just do that?"*

My avatar left shows how wet it was...it was taken that day.

*(the answer is probably "No, MDM did it!", but please don't spoil my moment, and I definitely moved the steering wheel! My only other evidence is when I was driving on the Interstate and the truck in front shredded a front tire and I was already braking before I "thought" I should brake. However, I still don't trust those unconcious reactions!)

Heh, I had a similar situation - i.e. I corrected oversteer, but the MDM did a neat job of bringing the tailend of the car inline and not let it fishtail all over the place, as shown in the following video.

Turned in a bit later than usual at this corner (thru the rearview mirror, spent a split second too long admiring the open-wheel formula car behind me), wound up too far right at the trackout, got rear passenger wheel onto the dirt, at which point I felt the backend swing out to the right. As seen in the video, I did quickly correct it (and would like to grab the credit for the car not spinning/snapping wildly). But, as soon as that rear passenger wheel got back on the tarmac, the MDM (processing things a thousand times a second) did a marvelous job and neatly brought the backend inline with the direction of the travel. I felt the backend swing back inline like it was going towards a strong magnet. No fishtailing back & forth. It was a neat dynamic sensation to the driver.

Second half of the video from the formula car that was following me visually amplifies that motion.

Had I been DSC off, I think the best that could've been achieved might've been for the backend to fishtail left & right as I try to correct it and just may be stay on tarmac & not touch the dirt on the left side.

[bigjae1976]

One thing I would add is it that slides are easier to catch by thinking ahead. If I'm off my reference points then I start getting myself ready for something bad to happen. When I do that, I can correct or catch it everytime. The times that I've spun or gone off...I wasn't expecting it and not using my reference points like I should be.

Originally Posted by OC3

Nothing. It'll downshift by itself, similar to when you coast to a stop at street without manually downshifting. It's like DCT does D-mode downshifting even when you're in S mode.

Not sure I understand. I think I would want the clutch to disengage so I don't spin the motor backwards...how would downshifting help?

Originally Posted by OC3

Turned in a bit later than usual at this corner (thru the rearview mirror, spent a split second too long admiring the open-wheel formula car behind me)

Similar thing just happened to me...I let a McLaren MP4-12C pass me, and when we approached a corner, I said, "Wow! That air brake is SO COOL!" and then I almost forgot to turn.

[OC3]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

One thing I would add is it that slides are easier to catch by thinking ahead.

Indeed. I heard more than a few very experienced track people say "you almost have to anticipate it."

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Not sure I understand. I think I would want the clutch to disengage so I don't spin the motor backwards...how would downshifting help?

Oh, I'm not saying I the driver downshifted. The car/DCT does it by itself.

In several spins I was in, I'd be in S3 at the beginning of the spin and, when the car came to a stop, it's in S1.

I even have a helmet-mounted video showing the dashboard in one of those spins where, somewhere during mid-spin, it changes from S3 to S2, then once the car came to a full stop, it changed to S1. I was too busy w/ the steering and throttle to be doing anything w/ the gear, including trying to put the DCT into N.

[ThunderMoose]

I want to thank everyone for their honest and, in some cases, pretty frank feedback. There's always a risk when you put yourself out there, especially on the interwebz, that you'll hear some comments that may sting a bit. However, I suspect that there a lot more "student" drivers on this forum that can benefit the analysis that you guys put together based on my incredibly well produced video of my first spin off.

For those of you that were concerned that I was driving a car modified well beyond my driving skills, I certainly appreciate that feedback and agree. However, things sometimes turn out that way for a variety of reasons:
- I ended up with my R-Comps, as I found a nail in my PSS the night of. Admittedly, I wasn't too disappointed, because lets face it, fat tires on satin black Arc-8's look pretty menacing.
- I chose this weekend to take DSC off, because I had an instructor and there was the possibility that I was going to be solo qualified that weekend, and I knew that I wanted to re-learn to drive the car with an instructor at my side.

Where to next? Based on your feedback, I signed up with the local PCA at a PDS/Car Control Clinic. I agree that saving the car needs to be automatic and I am not there yet.

But you know what, I think I learned to adapt to the loss of BWM intervention pretty quickly that weekend. Most of the feedback you guys gave me was about making a smoother transition from brake to throttle as well as less stabbing of the gas. I believe I was able do that in the following sessions as I ran the next 4 without incident and at pace. Here's a video of the first session of the second day. One thing to note is that the ECU input for E46 M3 for brake is just a switch (on/off) and not a continuous analog (0-100%). So the video will show "100%" whether or not I tap or forcibly apply braking. (NOTE: Video didn't upload properly last night, so I had to restart the upload, but it should be available in the next hour or so)

[armyav8tor]

My philosophy is, the quickest way to learn the limit is to exceed it. I forgot where I got that from, I want to say I heard it from Kimi Raikkonen or Mika Hakkinen. So, there is no better place to do what you did than to do it on a big wide open track. As others have mentioned, the best place to exceed the car and driver's limit is at autox's. My M3 has eaten so many cones but that's a hell of a lot cheaper than Armcos. I think racing autox is gay but for improving car control there is no better place and then applying that knowledge to the track will make you a very well rounded driver. That's my approach and it has worked for me so far.