600 miles with my M-DCT Coupe

[footie]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Can't be verified means POINTLESS - you will never know you are right or wrong, yet you keep patting yourself on the back and claiming victory and claiming you are correct. Very much like a politician and that is not a compliment. We should stick to what the unit does and why rather than design intent.

We are no debating if God exists so there no need to get all defencive on us here, I said it was engineered from the very start and was laughed at because no one would believe that the mighty M-division would do such a thing for purely effect. Swamp, hear me now and listen when I tell you this, engineers design the car but the marketing men say how it WILL be. Be under no illusions, BMW as with every manufacturer are in this business to make money, the glory and perfection is only a by-product of that.

Originally Posted by swamp2

Although I agree with you about the purpose and what a downshift should be I have not made up my mind about any excess in S4-S6 downshifts. I suspect they will appear much more applicable for track use.

S4~S6 may prove to be more beneficial on the track but it won't be the surge that will make this so, it will be it's altered mapping that will be the key. On the road where the car will spend 99.9% of it's time the S3 or less will be the best balance mode, of this I am in no doubt. Why, because that is roughly similar to the sport setting on DSG, but unlike DSG the BMW bring a lot more benefits like creep and one-flick downshift to the ideal gear. No doubt this gearbox is the better of the two, it's only the surge I ever had a problem with.

Originally Posted by swamp2

You have not driven the GT-R nor Evo and the reports of the two we all have access to do not provide enough detail about their transmissions to make fair comparisons to M-DCT. I have said that once and will keep saying it until you acknowledge it.

No, but I know a man who has.

Originally Posted by swamp2

Lastly you should qualify "no" benefit as I have to mean possible but likely little measureable benefit. Acceleration is acceleration whether instantaneous (jerk) or continuous (jerk=0) and it all helps. You refuse to acknowledge this.

swamp, you seem to be hung up on what the meaning of NO BENEFIT means to the normal M3 driver or maybe it's just a difference in opinion between us on this point. To you NO BENEFIT means no gain what so ever but to me it means so slightly a gain as to make little noticeable improvement in performance, this might still mean it's worth while to you but to me if to gain this ever so slight improvement is at the expense of the overall enjoyment and pleasure of the experience then sorry that to me means it's a worthless addition to the car.

The surge was a complaint in many of the reviews of the SMG systems and it looks like it might be the thing that stops the new gearbox getting the top marks it deserves.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by footie

Swamp, hear me now and listen when I tell you this, engineers design the car but the marketing men say how it WILL be. Be under no illusions, BMW as with every manufacturer are in this business to make money, the glory and perfection is only a by-product of that.

A fine counterpoint.

Originally Posted by footie

To you NO BENEFIT means no gain what so ever but to me it means so slightly a gain as to make little noticeable improvement in performance, this might still mean it's worth while to you but to me if to gain this ever so slight improvement is at the expense of the overall enjoyment and pleasure of the experience then sorry that to me means it's a worthless addition to the car.

Do recall that the vast majority of the comments about DCT based on those who had driven DSG and had also experienced the jerk present in SMG did say they would not be interested in DCT if the jerk was completely gone. This makes a case for your argument indeed, but my point on this point is that the vast majority of folks like the surge/jerk becuase it feels fast. I have always maintained and still do that those folks should change their perspective based on technology that offers the best of both world, smooth and fast. I still stick to that. In other words you characterization that the surge is "at the expense of the overall enjoyment and pleasure of the experience" is absolutely not the case for a very large contingent. It is in fact exactly the opposite.

Originally Posted by footie

The surge was a complaint in many of the reviews of the SMG systems and it looks like it might be the thing that stops the new gearbox getting the top marks it deserves.

Have we been reading different reviews? Can you point this out to me?

Don't forget that the feature that you so dread - the wide range of adjustability in Drivelogic - allows one to have and enjoy the surge, control its magnitude or eliminate it entirely if it is not enjoyed. You point just above is not only incorrect but moot.

[Hans Delbruck]

I've never owned anything but manual transmission cars. M-DCT will be the closest to an auto I've ever come When I have test driven automatic cars at dealers, I have to be told how to put the dang thing in "D" or "S" mode, LOL. Uhh... "how do I reverse" hehe.... my hands and feet are usually in "auto" mode, doing the work seamlessly and without thought, of course.
True automagics are difficult for me....

I just hope M-DCT gives me as much control as a manual. Power and gear when I want it.

Thanks for all the comments and keep em coming!

[WCH]

Originally Posted by Hans Delbruck

I've never owned anything but manual transmission cars. M-DCT will be the closest to an auto I've ever come When I have test driven automatic cars at dealers, I have to be told how to put the dang thing in "D" or "S" mode, LOL. Uhh... "how do I reverse" hehe.... my hands and feet are usually in "auto" mode, doing the work seamlessly and without thought, of course.
True automagics are difficult for me....

Thanks for all the comments and keep em coming!

I have faith that you will figure this out.

[ersin]

I'd like to think that the surge was a byproduct of the engineering maxim: function over form. But, even if it were only done for effect, it's not a bad thing. EDC, for example, is done for effect when you really think about it. If you truly wanted function over form, then the suspension would be very stiff. We'd also get a very light M3 with no luxury or amenities. So it's a compromise. It's all part of the driving experience.

I haven't driven one yet, but it seems the reports are that the DCT is not like the SMG. The SMG surge was really more of a jerk, if you ask me. Jerk bad. Surge good. It's all good now. It's also five o'clock somewhere.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by ersin

But, even if it were only done for effect, it's not a bad thing. EDC, for example, is done for effect when you really think about it. If you truly wanted function over form, then the suspension would be very stiff.

Stiffer suspension does necessarily not mean better handling or traction. EDC in normal mode is all about function/performance. You want a certain type of damping to be in contact with the surface (transfer loads) at all times to maximize traction. And if the surface countours are changing, which means the inputs to the mass/spring/damper system are changing, you want to be able to vary the damping ratio accordingly. I don't see how a passive suspension sytem can beat a well-programmed/executed active suspension system. That's why BMW engineers recommend EDC normal mode for optimum performance at the ring for instance. And, remember that F1 cars had active suspension before it was banned.

[ersin]

Originally Posted by lucid

Stiffer suspension does necessarily not mean better handling or traction. EDC in normal mode is all about function/performance. You want a certain type of damping to be in contact with the surface (transfer loads) at all times to maximize traction. And if the surface countours are changing, which means the inputs to the mass/spring/damper system are changing, you want to be able to vary the damping ratio accordingly. I don't see how a passive suspension sytem can beat a well-programmed/executed active suspension system. That's why BMW engineers recommend EDC normal mode for optimum performance at the ring for instance. And, remember that F1 cars had active suspension before it was banned.

Hey, I was trying to make a point. Don't confuse everyone with the facts, ok?

Yes, you have a good point. But don't forget EDC also has comfort mode. Do you think that maximizes performance? No. It's there to lessen the compromise. Set up for track it would be harsh as a daily driver. Set up for smooth highway cruising and it wouldn't be a track queen. EDC gives you both. It's not ALL about performance. They take into account the other things that don't really pertain to performance but are important to at least some of the people (read most) who BMW believes are going to buy this car. That's what makes it one hell of a well rounded car.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by ersin

Hey, I was trying to make a point. Don't confuse everyone with the facts, ok?

Yes, you have a good point. But don't forget EDC also has comfort mode. Do you think that maximizes performance? No. It's there to lessen the compromise. Set up for track it would be harsh as a daily driver. Set up for smooth highway cruising and it wouldn't be a track queen. EDC gives you both. It's not ALL about performance. They take into account the other things that don't really pertain to performance but are important to at least some of the people (read most) who BMW believes are going to buy this car. That's what makes it one hell of a well rounded car.

Yes, but that's why I said "EDC in normal mode is all about performance".

Not sure how that confuses anyone?

But I guess I might have jumped the gun on the active vs. passive bit...

[swamp2]

Foot, you REALLY have it wrong and I have some solid proof.

I got my 1200 mile service today (Friday) just a bit shy of 1200 mi. Took the good part of an entire day even though I had a reasonably early appointment. Service basically consists of engine oil and filter, air and micro filter inspection (actually replaced my micro filter, not sure why) and replacing diff. fluid. Even after the service LC still was not available . To anthropomorphize a bit, the car decides when it wants to turn on certain features. Alas late tonight it was finally there, the checkered flag icon in the dash display. Not to get too far ahead of myself I did not fully use it. I am sticking fairly close to the recommended break in procedure in the manual and it says to sneak up on higer and higer revs and speeds so I will. A couple more days and I will go for redline and LC.

A small aside on LC. Despite have the checkered flag holding the gas to the floor did not work quite a few times in a row, it revved well above 6k and I kept letting off to not get really high. Ohhhhh the sound and damn does it rev FAST. A thing of true automotive beauty. My grin was ear to ear. The sound gets so much more aggressive. In this way it is Jeckyl and Hyde, just like the rest of the car. Finally on the 3rd or 4th attempt LC modulated the throttle properly. Perhaps it was just me, but I swear I did everything right (it is really quite simple).

Anyway back to why you are WRONG foot....

Giving in to my realization that I should not be using LC just yet I still had quite a bit of fun. I used S6 with DSC off and did some very near full throttle take offs and 1-2 shifts. I did not have enough room to do much more in this empty industrial park and did not want to get up to absolutely outrageous speeds. I was shifting with the paddle at just about 6500, just into the sexy yellow shift lights, and man is the shift fantastic. Straight outta SMG III land. A big ol' thump (i.e. jerk/surge) and some good wheel spin and BAM off like a shot through 2nd gear. If I had spent more time in an SMG III M5/6 I would not be nearly as impressed with this as I am, but that's fine. I quickly switched to S3 mode, still with DSC off and performed the exact same run. Guess what? No chirp, no spin, nothing at 1->2. Footie, what is faster a 1->2 shift with absolutely no wheel spin and well under the limit of traction OR a nice amount of a slow "slip spin" where the wheel is just faster than the cars speed?

S6 is CLEARLY and INDISPUTABLY FASTER than S3. Hence the surge has a clear purpose and that purpose is pure performance.

It is faster not only due to the speed of the clutch disengagement but the dumping of the flywheel and engine rotational inertia right to the rear wheels. Read it and weep foot. I am sorry you precious Audi has not designed a system like this and that DSC is nothing but silky smooth but M-DCT >>>> DSG.

Maybe, just maybe I will get you guys a true WOT LC video by the end of the weekend and we will see if the M3 chirps into just 4th or 5th like the M6. 3rd for sure, 4th quite likely, 5th unlikely IMO.





Oh and by the way (esp. to T Bone) the upshifts keep getting better and faster at higher and higher rpm and in the higher but still torquey gears. 3->4 and 4->5 at 6500 are simply sublime and so incredibly fast.

[footie]

swamp,

What's this with all the Audi stuff, I enjoy fine engineering no matter who makes it. In some cases it's Audi in others it's BMW and so on, you really have to get off this opinion that I only like Audis..........hello I buying an M3 for heaven sake.

I'm pleased you believe this to be so, but I think if truth be told you will find little or no difference between the two setting when both are pitted against the clock. It's that feeling of speed by bumping the second clutch at a slightly higher rev that you are feeling, explain to me why lose of traction should be fast than no lose of traction. What S3 is doing is maintain traction and thus forward momentum, unlike S6.

Anyway I have had to change my order to the DCT so will discover the truth myself and no doubt my opinion on this will be different than yours which is perfectly fine as far as I am concerned.

In any case the main thing is that you are happy with the car and the transmission, and I have always said that as transmission of this type go the M-DCT is one of the best, better than DSG and better than a proper automatic.

But on that vital connect with the car thing that a manual gives, the DCT is found wanting.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by footie

Anyway I have had to change my order to the DCT so will discover the truth myself ...

Best regards, south

[footie]

Originally Posted by southlight

Best regards, south

Things happen and you know my reasoning and it's not getting any better. Though I am still getting an M3 which surely is still a good thing after all, but don't get to concerned South, I am still a manual guy at heart, if not in person.

[gorun]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Maybe, just maybe I will get you guys a true WOT LC video by the end of the weekend and we will see if the M3 chirps into just 4th or 5th like the M6. 3rd for sure, 4th quite likely, 5th unlikely IMO.





Oh and by the way (esp. to T Bone) the upshifts keep getting better and faster at higher and higher rpm and in the higher but still torquey gears. 3->4 and 4->5 at 6500 are simply sublime and so incredibly fast.

It would be great if we see the first LC video with the car doing the shifts in the optimum rpm. Btw it was my belief that the shifts would be even quicker and reaction time to pulling the paddle shorter as the needle climbs higher. With regards to the first service, are you sure that tranny oil doesn't get changed? I think the SMGs used to have a tranny oil change at first service...

[lucid]

Originally Posted by footie

Things happen and you know my reasoning and it's not getting any better. Though I am still getting an M3 which surely is still a good thing after all, but don't get to concerned South, I am still a manual guy at heart, if not in person.

You are waxing poetic here Footie. I am not sure if that will save your membership. The board will have to convene and discuss your case now...

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by lucid

You are waxing poetic here Footie. I am not sure if that will save your membership. The board will have to convene and discuss your case now...

Forget Lucid and that 6MT club...........the M-DCT gang WELCOMES YOU TO THE DARK-SIDE WITH OPEN ARMS

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by footie

...I'm pleased you believe this to be so, but I think if truth be told you will find little or no difference between the two setting when both are pitted against the clock. It's that feeling of speed by bumping the second clutch at a slightly higher rev that you are feeling, explain to me why lose of traction should be fast than no lose of traction. What S3 is doing is maintain traction and thus forward momentum, unlike S6.

Here's the deal, guy. For item one, any perceived surge can be pretty much relied on to be a real surge in acceleration, since our G-receptors, lousy as they are in determining actual acceleration rates, are very sensitive to rates of change. It's just built into us.

Obviously then, a surge in acceleration means you start to move up on or away from the car next to you operating sans surge, and you will keep moving away until the next surge, whereupon you will begin moving away more quickly, and so on.

In my misspent youth involving muscle cars and quarter miles, the powershifting rule of thumb was that, unless you were extremely traction limited, three shifts in that duration were good for close to three tenths (and two mph). My own results in a '64 GTO seemed to bear that out. Obviously the one-two shift was most important and the three-four much less so, but I have no data on that, as timeslips from that era only gave you the handwritten end result - and nobody powershifted just one gear.

For item two, breaking the tires loose in the way Swamp mentioned in no way indicates loss of traction. In fact, it signifies a gain in traction, essentially for the duration of the tire noise. Any tire will show an increased coefficient of friction as it begins to slip, nowadays peaking at around 10% slip or so, then tapering until you're back around a static coefficient at 20% slip (or less), then falling off like crazy as slip rates increase. You can kind of get a feel for this while watching a burnout with street tires. The noise level is very moderate as a tire spins fast enough to mercilessly make smoke, progressively getting louder as the tire begins to hook up and the car begins to surge forward. (Surge. Get it? )

That very sharp screech probably means optimum traction.

Bruce

[adamr]

@swamps post #97 .... ok im happy again with my choice of DCT ... was worried a bit bout those delays you mentioned in early posts, seems S6 sorts that out at higher revs ...

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by footie

swamp,

What's this with all the Audi stuff, I enjoy fine engineering no matter who makes it. In some cases it's Audi in others it's BMW and so on, you really have to get off this opinion that I only like Audis..........hello I buying an M3 for heaven sake.

I'm pleased you believe this to be so, but I think if truth be told you will find little or no difference between the two setting when both are pitted against the clock. It's that feeling of speed by bumping the second clutch at a slightly higher rev that you are feeling, explain to me why lose of traction should be fast than no lose of traction. What S3 is doing is maintain traction and thus forward momentum, unlike S6.

Anyway I have had to change my order to the DCT so will discover the truth myself and no doubt my opinion on this will be different than yours which is perfectly fine as far as I am concerned.

In any case the main thing is that you are happy with the car and the transmission, and I have always said that as transmission of this type go the M-DCT is one of the best, better than DSG and better than a proper automatic.

But on that vital connect with the car thing that a manual gives, the DCT is found wanting.

Foot, I know you are a BMW and an Audi fan. I actually am too. I really like the RS4. It is just that you are constantly discrediting BMW in favor of Audi with regards to their automated manuals.

In terms of S6 being faster than S3 by design and in reality simply see Bruce's good post just above. Getting a bit of wheel spin as long as it does not errupt into a huge smoke show, is undeniably the scenario for the best acceleration. Each shift, including the launch needs to maximize the time spent with maximum traction and hence maximum acceleration. This point is just with a bit of slip/spin, not too little and not too much. As it usually happens with you your clear lack of understanding of this effect and refusal to accept it is in direct contradiction to your claims of such a wealth of high level driving experience and expertise.

Congrats on switching to the dark side. Even if you cruise around in D3 all day every day (as you did equivalently with DSG) you can not not enjoy M-DCT.

In closing with regards to our very long debate it is time for you to admit you were wrong, period. You and your wonderful sources.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by adamr

@swamps post #97 .... ok im happy again with my choice of DCT ... was worried a bit bout those delays you mentioned in early posts, seems S6 sorts that out at higher revs ...

Not really the delay is still there. Please recall it is very slight. So slight that many would call it non-existent. With LC the shifts happen for you so you are not aware of it at all.

[footie]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Foot, I know you are a BMW and an Audi fan. I actually am too. I really like the RS4. It is just that you are constantly discrediting BMW in favor of Audi with regards to their automated manuals.

Congrats on switching to the dark side. Even if you cruise around in D3 all day every day (as you did equivalently with DSG) you can not not enjoy M-DCT.

In closing with regards to our very long debate it is time for you to admit you were wrong, period. You and your wonderful sources.

You need to include Lotus, Mercedes, Jaguar, Nissan, Alfa, Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, TVR and Chrysler in that fan club.

Medical reasons are pushing me this way, in fact the M3 can't come soon enough at this rate. I agree that D2~3 will probably be used quite a bit, especially in traffic and when feeling lazy as I often am but I will toy about with the manual settings if only just to see what all the fuss with with all this surge business. So what I am saying is I will try S5~6 but more likely settle on S3 as my desired setting, it's the logical choice given that it's performance all but matches the others and is the more pleasant to use on a day to day bases.

swamp, I am not wrong in anything I have said about M-DCT or dual clutch in general and the reason for that is I don't show all of my cards.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by footie

swamp, I am not wrong in anything I have said about M-DCT or dual clutch in general and the reason for that is I don't show all of my cards.

We can let the forum be the jury but your claim is that the modes with very distinct surge, i.e. S4->S6 were designed specifically for feel only and do not provide any performance benefit. You are wrong, time to move along. This is as clear as night and day.

P.S. The M-DCT tranny fluid is for life, no service.

[ersin]

Originally Posted by lucid

Not sure how that confuses anyone?

I was just trying to be funny with that remark to show I wasn't flaming you.