Another Bearing thread

[Doc Oc]

So today my baby went under the knife and got new bearings. The shop just texted me a few pictures of the stock bearings. Needless to say, it was a good move doing this now. My car has 62k miles on it and although I haven't had any issues yet, the shape of the plugs, diff oil, air filter, etc (plus the carfax and uoa report) told me that it hadn't seen regular maintenance. Plus I have just terrible luck, so I figured if anyone was going to be hit with this bearing issue it was me. Unfortunately I was right. All of the bearings show wear. A couple are pretty bad with copper showing and one had a pretty sizable groove dug in it. I've attached a couple early pics and will put some better ones up tomorrow once I get them layed out and photographed. To everyone who thinks this effects only a small portion of cars, the number is growing. Car has only been modded for 1500 miles, completely babied (by me, can't speak for the previous two owners) and sees no track use. We put in the vac extra clearance bearing kit which I hope mitigates the problem. Also replaced both motor mounts as they had both fallen apart.

[aussiem3]

Originally Posted by Doc Oc

So today my baby went under the knife and got new bearings. The shop just texted me a few pictures of the stock bearings. Needless to say, it was a good move doing this now. My car has 62k miles on it and although I haven't had any issues yet, the shape of the plugs, diff oil, air filter, etc (plus the carfax and uoa report) told me that it hadn't seen regular maintenance. Plus I have just terrible luck, so I figured if anyone was going to be hit with this bearing issue it was me. Unfortunately I was right. All of the bearings show wear. A couple are pretty bad with copper showing and one had a pretty sizable groove dug in it. I've attached a couple early pics and will put some better ones up tomorrow once I get them layed out and photographed. To everyone who thinks this effects only a small portion of cars, the number is growing. Car has only been modded for 1500 miles, completely babied (by me, can't speak for the previous two owners) and sees no track use. We put in the vac extra clearance bearing kit which I hope mitigates the problem. Also replaced both motor mounts as they had both fallen apart.

Good catch ... and you can see the copper surfacing. I think the main concern is the wear at the parting line suggesting excessive crush. I am no engine expert like RG, but my 2c. Also that copper appearing through the center as a line suggest a foreign particle deposited.

Could this have led to an engine failure ... jury is out there.

[Ashley Schaeffer BMW]

Those don't look bad at all.

More hysteria from the peanut gallery.... Errrr I mean m3 post.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Good job and on time for 62K, but we saw worse .
Thanks for sharing .

[Killerfish2012]

Thanks for sharing pics. The bearings don't look too bad. The vehicle should have made it to 100K miles at the least. However, this does prove that if the bearings were installed correctly at the factory, poor maintenance/no maintenance as you noted, surely does play a role in failures, as evidenced by your pictures.

[Doc Oc]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

Thanks for sharing pics. The bearings don't look too bad. The vehicle should have made it to 100K miles at the least. However, this does prove that if the bearings were installed correctly at the factory, poor maintenance/no maintenance as you noted, surely does play a role in failures, as evidenced by your pictures.

I agree on poor maintenance causing failures for sure. Unfortunately I just don't have any info on previous maintenance except for my assumptions based on carfax and the state of the filters/fluids/plugs. You can't draw any definite conclusions from that though. I'll never bring it to the dealer but I still maintain it religiously....possibly the prior owners were the same way? Who knows.

[Doc Oc]

Originally Posted by aussiem3

Good catch ... and you can see the copper surfacing. I think the main concern is the wear at the parting line suggesting excessive crush. I am no engine expert like RG, but my 2c. Also that copper appearing through the center as a line suggest a foreign particle deposited.

Could this have led to an engine failure ... jury is out there.

Yes, I was concerned about the parting lines too. The groove is definitely from some sort of debris.

[Doc Oc]

Originally Posted by Ashley Schaeffer BMW

Those don't look bad at all.

More hysteria from the peanut gallery.... Errrr I mean m3 post.

So at what point is it not hysteria? The babbitt was eaten through to some extent on most of the upper shells. I was hoping that this was a big waste of money and the bearings would be spotless. I was hoping it WAS internet hysteria, but if anything my car with 60k stock miles (only added mods 1500 miles ago) proves it's not. It's really amazing how desensitized you guys have gotten to this issue. While we've all seen worse, remember that in a perfect world the bearings should never touch anything except oil.

From mgaguru - Bearing shells are composed of a thick steel backing piece with a very thin copper plating and a little thicker layer of soft white metal on the inside. When new the inside bearing surface has a soft buff finish all the way around. As it wears it develops a shiny surface in the middle (all the way across), but may have very little wear near the ends. You will likely find more wear on the upper bearing shell than on the lower one. If you see only white metal on the bearing there is a very good chance the crankshaft is still in good serviceable condition. If you see a very small amount of copper showing through the white metal it's a toss up. If you see any of the steel backing shell showing through the copper, the crankshaft will most likely need to be reground. The copper layer is very thin, so a little more running time would have the steel backing plate exposed to cause severe damage to the crankshaft rod journal surface.

Edit: if you were being sarcastic (and I hope you were or I seriously question your motives), ignore everything above

[E90M3velocity]

Like you i got mine 2nd hand and not sure how the previous owner handled the car. Which brand of bearings did you go with? Oem or vac? Thanks

[Doc Oc]

Originally Posted by E90M3velocity

Like you i got mine 2nd hand and not sure how the previous owner handled the car. Which brand of bearings did you go with? Oem or vac? Thanks

I got this set as recommended by several prominent members:

https://store.vacmotorsports.com/mobile/vac-performance-coated-rod-bearing-kit-bmw-s65-p3479.aspx

They were very low on stock (I think 2 kits left) last week FYI and they're not coming back until mid sept. I liked the idea of some extra clearance plus the coating. Going to redo the job in 40k miles (if I keep it that long) and see how they've worn.

[admranger]

Originally Posted by Doc Oc

So at what point is it not hysteria?

I think your sarcasm meter is broken.

BTW: good catch on the bearings. It's always nice to catch something before it breaks in an expensive way!

Any crank damage at all?

[Doc Oc]

Originally Posted by admranger

I think your sarcasm meter is broken.

BTW: good catch on the bearings. It's always nice to catch something before it breaks in an expensive way!

Any crank damage at all?

I thought that might have been sarcasm but with that username I wasn't sure. Hard to tell when you don't know anyone yet.

Crank journal condition was the first item on a long list of questions I sent to the shop. I guess we'll find out in the a.m.

[pbonsalb]

Like some of these bearings, some of my 08 M3 bearings with 60k miles had the copper showing around the parting lines.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by Doc Oc

So at what point is it not hysteria? The babbitt was eaten through to some extent on most of the upper shells. I was hoping that this was a big waste of money and the bearings would be spotless. I was hoping it WAS internet hysteria, but if anything my car with 60k stock miles (only added mods 1500 miles ago) proves it's not. It's really amazing how desensitized you guys have gotten to this issue. While we've all seen worse, remember that in a perfect world the bearings should never touch anything except oil.

It's not desensitization, it's rational, simply evidenced by the many high mileage '08/'09 owners. The cosmetic appearance of the bearings has nothing to do with the probability of future failure. After all how else do you explain the failures in freshly installed aftermarket bearings? We've seen fresh bearings pulled from a motor with a rod bearing failure. Most likely because the rods were stretched out.

[Move Over]

Originally Posted by Doc Oc

So today my baby went under the knife and got new bearings. The shop just texted me a few pictures of the stock bearings. Needless to say, it was a good move doing this now. My car has 62k miles on it and although I haven't had any issues yet, the shape of the plugs, diff oil, air filter, etc (plus the carfax and uoa report) told me that it hadn't seen regular maintenance. Plus I have just terrible luck, so I figured if anyone was going to be hit with this bearing issue it was me. Unfortunately I was right. All of the bearings show wear. A couple are pretty bad with copper showing and one had a pretty sizable groove dug in it. I've attached a couple early pics and will put some better ones up tomorrow once I get them layed out and photographed. To everyone who thinks this effects only a small portion of cars, the number is growing. Car has only been modded for 1500 miles, completely babied (by me, can't speak for the previous two owners) and sees no track use. We put in the vac extra clearance bearing kit which I hope mitigates the problem. Also replaced both motor mounts as they had both fallen apart.

Did you wind up going with OEM rod bolts or ARP? I know we tossed some ideas around in your other thread.

Are you doing a break in period? Or just cranking up and going for it? Haha.

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

It's not desensitization, it's rational, simply evidenced by the many high mileage '08/'09 owners. The cosmetic appearance of the bearings has nothing to do with the probability of future failure. After all how else do you explain the failures in freshly installed aftermarket bearings? We've seen fresh bearings pulled from a motor with a rod bearing failure. Most likely because the rods were stretched out.

The condition of the bearings may have a lot to do with the probability of future failure.

There have been exactly two cases of issues with replacement bearings, hardly enough to draw any conclusions from.

This is the first I am reading of rods being "stretched out."

[Doc Oc]

Originally Posted by alxmlr789

Did you wind up going with OEM rod bolts or ARP? I know we tossed some ideas around in your other thread.

Are you doing a break in period? Or just cranking up and going for it? Haha.

I ended up with ARP bolts. I was set on the stock bolts until I saw VAC had their own custom bolts made by ARP that come in a kit with their bearings. With all do respect to some of the great guys here who recommend staying stock, I decided ultimately its better to go with the mechanics (and vacs) opinion. Hope it doesn't bite me in the ass.

The shop said to take it easy for a 100 miles or so and let them heat cycle a few times before getting on it. Have you heard anything different?

[Doc Oc]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

It's not desensitization, it's rational, simply evidenced by the many high mileage '08/'09 owners. The cosmetic appearance of the bearings has nothing to do with the probability of future failure. After all how else do you explain the failures in freshly installed aftermarket bearings? We've seen fresh bearings pulled from a motor with a rod bearing failure. Most likely because the rods were stretched out.

I don't believe that having many high mileage cars on the road is any kind of evidence against a bearing issue. Even if 10% of all m3's were affected, that'd still leave nearly 50,000 cars on the road without issue. If you knew going in that one out of every 10 cars would blow up, you'd never buy one....but if I told you 50,000 m3's were still going strong you wouldn't be worried at all. If you got a good one, more power to you, but coming here and telling people there is no problem and not to worry is a disservice. To many people like me, spending $2500 now is doable whereas a blown engine makes my car a paperweight for the next few years. If you convince people not to do that, are you going to be there for them if their engine blows?

And I also disagree with the cosmetic appearance thing you mentioned. If your bearings have worn through the Babbitt to the copper, at some point your engine will fail. The lead is there to protect the crank if issues occur. Its not supposed to be destroyed, its like a crumple zone in a car. Just because it does its job doesn't mean there isn't a problem. Once the lead is gone there's nothing protecting your crank and sooner or later you're gonna know it. We don't need hysteria, but a healthy awareness is a good thing.

[Move Over]

Originally Posted by Doc Oc

I ended up with ARP bolts. I was set on the stock bolts until I saw VAC had their own custom bolts made by ARP that come in a kit with their bearings. With all do respect to some of the great guys here who recommend staying stock, I decided ultimately its better to go with the mechanics (and vacs) opinion. Hope it doesn't bite me in the ass.

The shop said to take it easy for a 100 miles or so and let them heat cycle a few times before getting on it. Have you heard anything different?

I am keeping it under 3500 rpms for the first 1500 miles. This has been a recommendation from the guy who helped me with mine (he did his own last month). I also hear when one does any major engine work, follow OEM break in procedure. Which, in our case would be under 5k for 1200 miles and do an oil change.

I am pretty sure i am the only one who has used OEM bolts in a DIY, or a shop install. lolol great.

[BrewRifle]

Originally Posted by alxmlr789

I am keeping it under 3500 rpms for the first 1500 miles. This has been a recommendation from the guy who helped me with mine (he did his own last month). I also hear when one does any major engine work, follow OEM break in procedure. Which, in our case would be under 5k for 1200 miles and do an oil change.

I am pretty sure i am the only one who has used OEM bolts in a DIY, or a shop install. lolol great.

The verdict is still out on whether the ARP bolts cause bore distortion so I think you did the right choice. I'm going with OEM bolts and the new Clevite bearings once they are released.

[Move Over]

Originally Posted by BrewRifle

The verdict is still out on whether the ARP bolts cause bore distortion so I think you did the right choice. I'm going with OEM bolts and the new Clevite bearings once they are released.

I hope so! I guess we have yet to see a rod bolt go bad. I am planning on doing a small ESS supercharger kit, and am really hoping the OEM bolts are "cool" with that.

I followed the jointing, setting, and angle torque to a T. But holy shit was it hard to get 6NM and 20NM on the dot on one of those deathly accurate CDI electronic wrenches. You breathe wrong and you'll be at 6.1, and 20.1 lol.

[Doc Oc]

I would not be worried about using the stock bolts at all. I wanted to use them but backed down as its hard to tell a 20 year BMW tech and VAC that I trust m3post more. Your bolts were made for the rods and I saw that you definitely torqued them right, so I'd drive with confidence!

I'm going to modify the break in a bit I think. We heat cycled the car and changed the filter but an oil change in 1500 sounds like a good idea. We are leaving to go to the mountains on 7/31. I'm going to take it easy until then but will have to stretch its legs once we get past Asheville.