Imperfect oil analysis comparison of TWS vs Edge Pro vs M1

[Z K]

Originally Posted by aussiem3

Where did this magical 5k mile interval come from. Sounds like Prophecy!

+1

While I wouldn't want to run 0w40 on the M3 past 5k miles, it isn't like the engine will magically explode or something if you run it past 5k.

[Flying Ace]

Originally Posted by W///

Who the hell knows. This is SFP Part 2 I guess

lol...5k was just an arbitrary number I picked that was half of the 10k which is an arbitrary number I use to run a OCI based off of.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Flying Ace

lol...5k was just an arbitrary number I picked that was half of the 10k which is an arbitrary number I use to run a OCI based off of.

Please read my question => "#13"
So what do you think ?
Other guys comments are welcome too...

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by gatorfast

Why?

cuz he did 10K oil change intervals with an oil that was not BMW LL01 approved. I.e: Does not meet BMW's sludge/corrosion protection standards. His motor will have a lot of sludge.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by gatorfast

What evidence is there to support this

Show me a 5K+ M1 0W40 analysis used oil analysis with Iron levels lower than the 10W60 universal averages.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by aussiem3

Where did this magical 5k mile interval come from. Sounds like Prophecy!

Do a search in the engine section. There is a bearing teardown of an 80K motor, showing barely any wear. The owner used 10W60 for 1/2 the miles, and M1 0W40 for the other half. Both oils were changed at 5K intervals.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by W///

Isn't he saying the exact same thing that you are saying? That running M1 is going to destroy the S65? Don't see the need to get butt hurt over it, it's a forum. It was supposed to be a light joke.

Good day sir

I never said that running M1 0W40 will destroy the motor. In fact I'm using it right now, and will use it every fall/winter. I said it can even be used year round. The problem I have is with those advocating it's straight use for HPDE, while not ever using it on track themselves, for obvious reasons.

[kaede]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Please read my question => "#13"
So what do you think ?
Other guys comments are welcome too...

Hi, I will change the oil, just for the peace of mind.

Myself usually I religiously change my oil twice a year, once for the summer and hotter months, another time for the colder fall/winter months. I usually NEVER go beyond 6-7k km OCI (I don't drive a lot... always less than 14k km/year). Overkill - YES, but oil change is not exactly what i will call expensive (at least in north america, plus, I DIY it).

On my other cars that I don't drive as much (I have an Acura NSX that i rarely drive more than 5k km per year, i change it once a year regardless, again, for the peace of mind).

I am sure old oil is technically ok. Since some oil probably sits on the shelves for long periods of times. But it doesn't hurt to put new oil in it no?

Good Luck!

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by kaede

Hi, I will change the oil, just for the peace of mind.

Myself usually I religiously change my oil twice a year, once for the summer and hotter months, another time for the colder fall/winter months. I usually NEVER go beyond 6-7k km OCI (I don't drive a lot... always less than 14k km/year). Overkill - YES, but oil change is not exactly what i will call expensive (at least in north america, plus, I DIY it).

On my other cars that I don't drive as much (I have an Acura NSX that i rarely drive more than 5k km per year, i change it once a year regardless, again, for the peace of mind).

I am sure old oil is technically ok. Since some oil probably sits on the shelves for long periods of times. But it doesn't hurt to put new oil in it no?

Good Luck!

Got it !

[Richbot]

I'm running another change of M1 0w40 now and we'll see what it looks like in colder weather. My first 0w40 sample came back looking pretty typical for others I've seen: a little higher iron, otherwise just as good as my 10w60 samples wear metals wise. Note the interval. I ran this during the summer to get a worst-case for my use of the car (street w/occasional light-duty motorsports events like autocross). For what it's worth, my average tank mileage is about 19.2mpg, and I routinely see tanks >20mpg, even with all my hoonage, point being the majority of the miles are highway, constant light-load use. For my purposes the 0w40 seems to make sense.



Maybe, just maybe, if we keep this thread on topic we can use this thread for people who have actually used both oils in the same unit and can see some real same-location comparison data without sifting through the 100+ pages of low signal-to-noise ratio stuff we have elsewhere

[aussiem3]

Originally Posted by Richbot

Maybe, just maybe, if we keep this thread on topic we can use this thread for people who have actually used both oils in the same unit and can see some real same-location comparison data without sifting through the 100+ pages of low signal-to-noise ratio stuff we have elsewhere

+1

[Flying Ace]

Originally Posted by Richbot

Maybe, just maybe, if we keep this thread on topic we can use this thread for people who have actually used both oils in the same unit and can see some real same-location comparison data without sifting through the 100+ pages of low signal-to-noise ratio stuff we have elsewhere

yep, that's why I started this thread. Often we don't have enough data that compares across oil samples on the same motor. now you and I have a report out there for others to consider when deciding on which one to use.

[gatorfast]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

cuz he did 10K oil change intervals with an oil that was not BMW LL01 approved. I.e: Does not meet BMW's sludge/corrosion protection standards. His motor will have a lot of sludge.

Castrol edge professional/TWS is the factory recommended oil for the s65 and M1 0w40 most certainly meets LL01 approval

On another note, I have never heard of anyone recommending an engine flush for our cars (or really any car). Seems like most consider it a risky proposition and not necessary.

[dereksM3]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

cuz he did 10K oil change intervals with an oil that was not BMW LL01 approved. I.e: Does not meet BMW's sludge/corrosion protection standards. His motor will have a lot of sludge.

No he didn't it clearly says in his report 4,909 miles. I think you should read it more carefully. Secondly, M1 is LL01 approved and how can you make a blanket statement that his motor will have sledge. BMW's sludge/corrosion protection is not some industry setting alterntative that dictates a magical standard of how sludge is formed. There are virtually zero S65's that have sludge issues as most any current synthetic oil has enough additives to go 8-10k miles under normal driving circumstances.

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

Show me a 5K+ M1 0W40 analysis used oil analysis with Iron levels lower than the 10W60 universal averages.

You need to go beyond looking at just BMW M3 universal averages. Almost every platform including Porsche, GTR, Viper, Corvette, Audi, etc show higher levels of Iron when using M1 0W-40. Iron is a slight offset from the formulation not some magical wear you all of a sudden obtain when using it. This has yet nor will probably ever be proven. This was only speculation based on a few members that don't rely on any level of conclusive data. You should go look up virgin UOA's of Shell Helix, TWS, M1, Redline, etc and it clearly shows what I mentioned above.

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

Do a search in the engine section. There is a bearing teardown of an 80K motor, showing barely any wear. The owner used 10W60 for 1/2 the miles, and M1 0W40 for the other half. Both oils were changed at 5K intervals.

So how does this prove your theory of going over 5k miles on M1 will all of a sudden blow up and sludge will magically occur??????? What you just speak of was 5k intervals so what data do you have to back up your claims. Did you see the UAO above? Over 7k miles, I bet his engine is just a disaster...

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by gatorfast

Castrol edge professional/TWS is the factory recommended oil for the s65 and M1 0w40 most certainly meets LL01 approval

You're trying to twist what I'm saying in an attempt to discredit me, but the strategy doesn't work, so I don't know why you waste your time.
Castrol Edge Professional/TWS is NOT BMW LL01 approved, therefore, using it for such long oil intervals will most likely produce tons of engine sludge, which is why an engine flush would be highly beneficial.

Originally Posted by gatorfast

On another note, I have never heard of anyone recommending an engine flush for our cars (or really any car). Seems like most consider it a risky proposition and not necessary.

Coming from Hondas I've never heard of 15K mile oil change intervals, or lifetime fluids, until I owned a BMW and started reading what folks were doing on the forums. I used engine flushes multiple times on my BMW '07 335I, and it now has 130K street/track miles, with NO issues. Original Motor, and trans. When My oil pan gasket was serviced, the techs noted my clean pan, which was the first they'd ever seen in a euro vehicle.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by dereksM3

No he didn't it clearly says in his report 4,909 miles. I think you should read it more carefully. Secondly, M1 is LL01 approved and how can you make a blanket statement that his motor will have sledge. BMW's sludge/corrosion protection is not some industry setting alterntative that dictates a magical standard of how sludge is formed. There are virtually zero S65's that have sludge issues as most any current synthetic oil has enough additives to go 8-10k miles under normal driving circumstances.

Read Post #37

Originally Posted by dereksM3

You need to go beyond looking at just BMW M3 universal averages. Almost every platform including Porsche, GTR, Viper, Corvette, Audi, etc show higher levels of Iron when using M1 0W-40. Iron is a slight offset from the formulation not some magical wear you all of a sudden obtain when using it. This has yet nor will probably ever be proven. This was only speculation based on a few members that don't rely on any level of conclusive data. You should go look up virgin UOA's of Shell Helix, TWS, M1, Redline, etc and it clearly shows what I mentioned above.

And the high Aluminum?

Originally Posted by dereksM3

So how does this prove your theory of going over 5k miles on M1 will all of a sudden blow up and sludge will magically occur??????? What you just speak of was 5k intervals so what data do you have to back up your claims. Did you see the UAO above? Over 7k miles, I bet his engine is just a disaster...

1. Read post #37
2. M1 0W40 is not recommended by mobil for long drain intervals. That would be Mobil 1 Advanced 5W30. Read the back of the bottles carefully. If you need help with the sentences, I can help explain them.

[Flying Ace]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

cuz he did 10K oil change intervals with an oil that was not BMW LL01 approved. I.e: Does not meet BMW's sludge/corrosion protection standards. His motor will have a lot of sludge.

How is OEM Castrol TWS oil that you buy at DEALERSHPS not LL01 approved?

You're mistaken in your interpretation of the results and what I wrote. The 10k drain interval is on the old TWS in accordance to BMW recommended interval. I have since used OEM Edge Pro (new OEM formula) and M1 on 5k OCIs. Both time,s wear metals dropped, and M1 provided the best results.


My point of posting my comparison is to discredit the 15k OEM OCI and the old TWS formula

[gatorfast]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

You're trying to twist what I'm saying in an attempt to discredit me, but the strategy doesn't work, so I don't know why you waste your time.
Castrol Edge Professional/TWS is NOT BMW LL01 approved, therefore, using it for such long oil intervals will most likely produce tons of engine sludge, which is why an engine flush would be highly beneficial.

I am not twisting your words at all. You suggested that using TWS, which is the oil exclusively recommended by BMW for our cars, for the BMW recommended drain interval of 15k miles will cause sludge to build in the engine. What is your basis for this?

[gatorfast]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

Read Post #37
2. M1 0W40 is not recommended by mobil for long drain intervals. That would be Mobil 1 Advanced 5W30. Read the back of the bottles carefully. If you need help with the sentences, I can help explain them.

M1 0w40 is LL01 approved which means it meets BMW's standards for recommended oil drain intervals. Please stop regurgitating this nonsense.

[W///]

Originally Posted by Richbot

I'm running another change of M1 0w40 now and we'll see what it looks like in colder weather. My first 0w40 sample came back looking pretty typical for others I've seen: a little higher iron, otherwise just as good as my 10w60 samples wear metals wise. Note the interval. I ran this during the summer to get a worst-case for my use of the car (street w/occasional light-duty motorsports events like autocross). For what it's worth, my average tank mileage is about 19.2mpg, and I routinely see tanks >20mpg, even with all my hoonage, point being the majority of the miles are highway, constant light-load use. For my purposes the 0w40 seems to make sense.



Maybe, just maybe, if we keep this thread on topic we can use this thread for people who have actually used both oils in the same unit and can see some real same-location comparison data without sifting through the 100+ pages of low signal-to-noise ratio stuff we have elsewhere

The data is out there, it's just completely muffled by people that have little ACTUAL data.
Here's mine:


I think you can see which one M1 is without me telling you. And let me assure everyone that is reading this, that during the M1 oil interval, the engine was pushed MUCH MUCH harder than when it was on 10W60. Countless mountain runs, with pics to prove if people don't believe

Also have another report after that one after even more mountain runs and 1 track day that showed more or less the same thing.

P.S. Someone did say high Aluminum right?...

[dereksM3]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

You're trying to twist what I'm saying in an attempt to discredit me, but the strategy doesn't work, so I don't know why you waste your time.
Castrol Edge Professional/TWS is NOT BMW LL01 approved, therefore, using it for such long oil intervals will most likely produce tons of engine sludge, which is why an engine flush would be highly beneficial.



Coming from Hondas I've never heard of 15K mile oil change intervals, or lifetime fluids, until I owned a BMW and started reading what folks were doing on the forums. I used engine flushes multiple times on my BMW '07 335I, and it now has 130K street/track miles, with NO issues. Original Motor, and trans. When My oil pan gasket was serviced, the techs noted my clean pan, which was the first they'd ever seen in a euro vehicle.

This is my last response to your nonsense posts...Castrol Edge AND TWS are BOTH LL01 per BMW and M requirements. Since you consistently speak of peoples lack of reading comprehension maybe YOU can't even read the OP's first post correctly. Oh and just so you can get your facts strait I attached BMW's own document clearly stating M1 0W-40 as being LL01 rated...maybe you should read the back of the bottle yourself...

Secondly, first you say he will have sludge then you say he will most likely, which is it? You are clearly starting to contradict yourself. If you are comparing what a tech told you about your N54 with twin turbos that are known to cook oil as they are oil cooled turbos and run much higher oil temps than a S65. Just because one BMW engine that has two turbos to cool and has a history of high oil temps doesn't mean a naturally aspirated S65 will. I have yet to hear of any sludge issues on an S65 even when running the overly long 15k intervals on so called non LL01 rated TWS. So clearly the OP has ran less on each oil so please explain if you are capable, with concrete data, anecdotal evidence, and true technical knowledge of why he will have sludge. I doubt you can.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by Flying Ace

How is OEM Castrol TWS oil that you buy at DEALERSHPS not LL01 approved?

BMW LL01 approval is indicated on the bottle label once the oil has been tested according to the test sequences, and met the standards. If it's not on the label, it's not approved. Period.