BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > M3 (E90 / E92 / E93) > M3 vs....
 
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      08-22-2008, 06:33 AM   #1
Just_me
Captain
193
Rep
657
Posts

Drives: RWD
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Sweden

iTrader: (0)

Sportauto Nurnburgring laptime: Lexus IS-F

Lexus IS-F Nordschleife laptime : 8.18 min

0-100km/h: 4.9 sec
0-160km/h: 10,5 sec
0-200km/h: 16,2 sec
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2008, 07:26 AM   #2
gorun
Lieutenant
gorun's Avatar
45
Rep
528
Posts

Drives: W166 ML63 PP
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Where the roads are crap...

iTrader: (0)

sorry
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2008, 07:51 AM   #3
Robin_NL
S0THPAW
Robin_NL's Avatar
8680
Rep
7,846
Posts

Drives: HS M2 Competition
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The Netherlands

iTrader: (0)

BTG time for E92 M3 at NS: 8:05(Horst von Saurma sportauto journalist, 19"Pilot Sport II)

Sep 14th we're heading for another day at the Nordschleife with my new E90 M3 saloon!!!!
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2008, 08:27 AM   #4
footie
Major General
footie's Avatar
No_Country
1072
Rep
8,008
Posts

Drives: i4M50
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: No where fast

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Where is the M3 M-DCT times we were promised?

It's very funny that all this time has passed and no testing from SportAuto on the new gearbox? There surely has to be a reason.
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2008, 10:04 AM   #5
Just_me
Captain
193
Rep
657
Posts

Drives: RWD
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Sweden

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Where is the M3 M-DCT times we were promised?

It's very funny that all this time has passed and no testing from SportAuto on the new gearbox? There surely has to be a reason.
There are no C63 AMG supertest either. Whats the reason for that?
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2008, 11:28 AM   #6
e46e92love
Brigadier General
e46e92love's Avatar
United_States
233
Rep
3,302
Posts

Drives: e92 ///M3; X3 (wife's)
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: The East Side of Things

iTrader: (0)

Its so we have something to complain about on the boards
__________________

"...it's not about the money and not about the brand of the car, it's about handling,performance and passion......And that, no other car has all together like an M3........when you talk about the most complete car the M is invincible." --Tony Kanaan.
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2008, 11:35 AM   #7
!Xoible
Banned
United_States
823
Rep
46,029
Posts

Drives: ....
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: .

iTrader: (4)

Garage List
2008 M3  [4.00]
2007 335i  [9.00]
2008 528i  [8.00]
2006 Infiniti - G35 ...  [8.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Where is the M3 M-DCT times we were promised?

It's very funny that all this time has passed and no testing from SportAuto on the new gearbox? There surely has to be a reason.
it's not worthy of their time.

@ original topic: im sorry to hear that. that sucks
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2008, 04:45 PM   #8
swamp2
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar
United_States
609
Rep
10,407
Posts

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (3)

Sounds about right to me, more torque than the M3, about the same power, good 8 speed tranny, never performs as well in handling metrics as the M3. Overall a pretty nice performance for the car.
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2008, 05:51 PM   #9
OBI_agent
D to the X to the B!
OBI_agent's Avatar
United Arab Emirates
339
Rep
2,106
Posts

Drives: ABS,American bargain supercar
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Dubai

iTrader: (0)

Not bad!!!
__________________
11 corvette C6
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2008, 05:53 PM   #10
!Xoible
Banned
United_States
823
Rep
46,029
Posts

Drives: ....
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: .

iTrader: (4)

Garage List
2008 M3  [4.00]
2007 335i  [9.00]
2008 528i  [8.00]
2006 Infiniti - G35 ...  [8.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by OBI_agent View Post
Not bad!!!
actually pretty bad bro
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2008, 08:49 PM   #11
SteelTorque
Captain
81
Rep
849
Posts

Drives: 08 E92 335xi
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Seattle, WA

iTrader: (0)

pathetic
__________________
08 E92 335xi Space Gray 6AT - PROcede V2 12.8 @ 111 mph
Appreciate 0
      08-22-2008, 11:23 PM   #12
th3Stig
Private
0
Rep
50
Posts

Drives: 2010 GT500 Eleanor
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: SWFL

iTrader: (0)

pathetic in what regards? what other Lexus model has been run around the 'Ring seriously in competition to ANYTHING serious?


not bad for a first-time 4dr auto Lexus sport sedan.
Appreciate 0
      08-23-2008, 12:12 AM   #13
ToothDoc
Second Lieutenant
5
Rep
241
Posts

Drives: 997.2 TTS, CLA 45 AMG
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Chicagoland

iTrader: (0)

It's 5 seconds slower than the E60 M5. The IS-F is a little more "safe" in the handling department and doesn't quite have as good traction due to no true limited slip diff. I wouldn't say it's so slow.

BTW, the M3's 8:05 isn't a fully stock M3. It had optional race brake pads on the front axles and were running CUP tires and not PS2s. Maybe that's why the new tranny hasn't been reported (but probably tested) - as equipped with PS2s and standard pads, they're probably running SLOWER than 8:05 (my speculation).

Got my flamesuit on...
Appreciate 0
      08-23-2008, 01:11 AM   #14
hellrotm
Banned
4143
Rep
6,926
Posts

Drives: F80
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: ...Location...Location

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by th3Stig View Post
pathetic in what regards? what other Lexus model has been run around the 'Ring seriously in competition to ANYTHING serious?

not bad for a first-time 4dr auto Lexus sport sedan.
I am sick of hearing this "first time" BS.

Its Toyota, they have experience in building sports cars.
Appreciate 0
      08-23-2008, 05:57 AM   #15
swamp2
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar
United_States
609
Rep
10,407
Posts

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackJetE90 View Post
I am sick of hearing this "first time" BS.

Its Toyota, they have experience in building sports cars.
I think it is very fair to say that.

Building a medium production volume car that has to make profit and be competitive in the market is vastly different than building any sort of race car. Sure Toyota can build a car much like the IS-F that will smoke the M3 around the ring but can they do it with the level of comfort, safety and amenities that are in the current car? Clearly they can not. Most cars and most big engineering and design challenges are a series of carefully executed COMPROMISES, the M3 and IS-F are no different. The maturity of a process in dealing with a particular set of comprimises is indeed a process itself that takes a lot of time. Even understanding all of the compromises takes time and then to deliver success across a very broad range of criteria takes even more. Heck, even putting your team together and overcoming organizational challenges such as mangement structure, politics, team culture, etc. take significant time.
Appreciate 0
      08-23-2008, 07:02 AM   #16
footie
Major General
footie's Avatar
No_Country
1072
Rep
8,008
Posts

Drives: i4M50
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: No where fast

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
+1 Swamp,

The difficulty isn't in building a car to beat the M3 on the ring but to beat it while providing the same levels of comfort, quality in controls and entertainment. This is one of the reasons why the M3 has sustained such a long and fruitful life and sells over the years, it has had many a competitor along the way but none to date have completely match it in all of these disciplines.
Appreciate 0
      08-23-2008, 08:35 AM   #17
bruce.augenstein@comcast.
Colonel
99
Rep
2,000
Posts

Drives: 2017 C63
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Manheim, PA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I think it is very fair to say that.

Building a medium production volume car that has to make profit and be competitive in the market is vastly different than building any sort of race car. Sure Toyota can build a car much like the IS-F that will smoke the M3 around the ring but can they do it with the level of comfort, safety and amenities that are in the current car? Clearly they can not. Most cars and most big engineering and design challenges are a series of carefully executed COMPROMISES, the M3 and IS-F are no different. The maturity of a process in dealing with a particular set of comprimises is indeed a process itself that takes a lot of time. Even understanding all of the compromises takes time and then to deliver success across a very broad range of criteria takes even more. Heck, even putting your team together and overcoming organizational challenges such as mangement structure, politics, team culture, etc. take significant time.
Pretty much agree everywhere, but I'd like to add that an overriding "compromise", is that the car must feel and drive like a Lexus. They didn't build this car necessarily as an M3 fighter, but as a response to a burgeoning performance marketplace which saw them beginning to lose a few of the faithful to those crazy Germans, and others. Even then, in a story much like many others in the automobile business, the IS-F began as a project by a splinter group within the company, looking to address both the so-far minor problem of lost sales and an actual potential market opportunity.

But, a major and obvious goal of such a project would be that the car would need to appeal to the faithful first of all, and then you would be considering a potential attack for market share against other vendors.

Appealing to the faithful means it must drive like a Lexus, so all those factors that the engineering types have reduced to specific numbers must be present - meaning obvious things such as steering feel, brake feel, turn-in, relationship between shock valving and spring rates, and literally dozens of other items must all be present. It's OK that the car feel as if it's the sharpest feeling Lexus ever built, but it's not as if the Lexus faithful are BMW wannabees. They actually expect and like handling characteristics that would be largely unappealing to the BMW faithful, and just laughed at by Lotus guys. So, first rule: Don't forget what got you here, and don't alienate the faithful.

I'm reminded of a time when I mistakenly thought I had matured, automotively speaking, and bought a new '82 Buick mumble-whatever very large V8 four-door sedan. It didn't take me long to realize that I had had a major judgement lapse (although the car was great for family trips), so I took The Big Hit on trade-in for something else.

Flash forward a bit, and the car rental guys at Boston airport take pity on the bedraggled way-late traveller, and give him the keys to another large four-door Buick (instead of the bottom-feeder my company normally authorized) to take home. It isn't long before I realize that this front wheel drive, transverse V6 drives exactly like my '82 did. Same sloppy turn-in. Same all-ahead-two-thirds-right-full-rudder feel at the helm, same way-flaccid shocks over bumps. In fact, same everything.

I think, "Boy what a wasted opportunity", but upon reflection it occurs to me that it would be a minor miracle if such massively different cars could drive exactly alike - assuming it was just a coincidence, of course.

Then it hit me; They meant to do this! Buick buyers expect certain characteristics in their cars, so, first rule of marketing - don't piss off the faithful.

So Swamp, with everything you've said, plus the above background, it's a wonder the IS-F can compete as well as it does in the M venue. Gotta say hat's off to the Toyota guys.

Bruce
Appreciate 0
      08-23-2008, 10:26 AM   #18
OBI_agent
D to the X to the B!
OBI_agent's Avatar
United Arab Emirates
339
Rep
2,106
Posts

Drives: ABS,American bargain supercar
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Dubai

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ///Mantis View Post
actually pretty bad bro
Bro....I dont like IS-F at all.....Inside out....but....I do respect Lexus first time effort in making a sports sedan....from that point of view....IS-F's time aint so bad....
__________________
11 corvette C6
Appreciate 0
      08-23-2008, 11:03 AM   #19
PowerLex
Private First Class
5
Rep
193
Posts

Drives: Lexus IS-F
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Windy City

iTrader: (2)

I think that's a good benchmark. Lexus owners aren't gonna give a crap about how fast the ISF goes around a track anyways. I know I don't. I think the M3 is an amazing machine. But I couldn't justify the extra $$$ just for an LSD and EDC and about 13 seconds round a track. I totally respect people wanting that in a performance car however. Lexus did a great job I think.
Appreciate 0
      08-23-2008, 11:15 AM   #20
Dascamel
Lieutenant Colonel
Dascamel's Avatar
48
Rep
1,664
Posts

Drives: 2008 e92 M3, 2010 e91 328i
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bakersfield, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
+1 Swamp,

The difficulty isn't in building a car to beat the M3 on the ring but to beat it while providing the same levels of comfort, quality in controls and entertainment. This is one of the reasons why the M3 has sustained such a long and fruitful life and sells over the years, it has had many a competitor along the way but none to date have completely match it in all of these disciplines.
The car is really two different beasts. I had no idea until driving around the last 150 miles. Seats are great, the leather is soft, shifts are super smooth. In comfort the suspension doesn't kill you on bad roads, engine noise is low when just taking it, easy. Then push a buton, setup aggresive modes, go past 4000-5000 rpms total different car. Coming from the 335, the handling feels incredible. The amount of driver feedback is great. Ring times are great, but yeah hard to get best of both worlds. Just find some z06 owners......
__________________
2008 E92 M3 Jerez Black,DCT,Fox Red ext,Prem,Tech,19", ipod/usb, CF roof and trim
2010 E91 328i Space Gray,Black int, M sport, most options
2007 Montego Blue 335i (retired)
Appreciate 0
      08-23-2008, 04:52 PM   #21
swamp2
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar
United_States
609
Rep
10,407
Posts

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Pretty much agree everywhere, but I'd like to add that an overriding "compromise", is that the car must feel and drive like a Lexus.
....
Great point, agree fully, there is as much "character preservation" as there is compromise.
Appreciate 0
      08-23-2008, 05:49 PM   #22
footie
Major General
footie's Avatar
No_Country
1072
Rep
8,008
Posts

Drives: i4M50
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: No where fast

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Bruce,

I suppose I wasn't looking at it from that view point, if the IS-F retains the very nature of the Lexus while still providing this time then they have achieved the goal they set out to do. Everyone knows that BMWs feel sportier than a normal Lexus, the same is true for Mercedes and Audi, that is the very nature of the beast. Each brand has to stay true to their principles, that is why Audi keep Quattro, Mercedes use big torquey engines, Lexus comfort their drivers and BMW make them feel sporty.

In a way BMW have the easiest task, as they have the least amount of compromising to do to achieve their performance goals.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:32 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST