New M3/M4 reviews are out, thoughts?

[Rupes]

Originally Posted by Tiny Chainsaw

I am young, but definitely not immature.

You sure?

Don't worry, all young, immature people think this too.

[JRV]

Why does he keep car shopping for me?

[deletedelete]

Originally Posted by Tiny Chainsaw

No just the inner ricer in you, the fact that you argue that the weakest point of the new m3/m4 is the sound is frightening. Basically saying e9x m3>f8x m3/m4 because of sound and the high revving character is actually very rice of you lol.

I am young, but definitely not immature. I am a fan of performance which I also thought many people on this forum were too, but apparently sound makes so much of a big difference that people get turned off by the car because of that, but the funny thing is that most people haven't even heard the car yet and already have come to the conclusion that it sounds like a "honda civic" or some other presumptious thoughts. A couple things you stated are also wrong...
1. It is not a regular series engine
2. Sound is subjective
3. Cosmetics/Aesthetics are subjective
4. So tuning is now only for the F&F group? That's a big slap in the face to Dinan and every single tuner out there lol. This forum was basically made for tuners, I have no idea why you are even comparing people who want to tune the M3/M4 to a movie where characters/car builds are fictional, I am definitely not going to slap a NOS tank to my bmw and try to race people out on the street, you are crazy for even insinuating this.
5. You forget that BMW is a BUSINESS, and businesses need to follow strict laws. I'm pretty sure you don't know that the CAFE law wants $5.50 USD per 0.1 mpg under the standard for each vehicle sold and the standard in 2016 will be 35.5 MPG, this could translate to millions of dollars of revenue lost, which isn't really viable for a company as big as BMW. Move with the times or go out of business, would you rather have a BMW M4 or no M4 at all?

Yes the M4 engine is based off of a regular series engine that is found in many cars obviously it has some changes to it but that engine was used because of the regulations and without those regulations it's logical that a different engine would have been used.

Sound is subjective and past M's have sounded bad but when it's competition is twin turbo v8s and other powerful sounding cars and the previous gen was the great sounding s65 the engine in the M4 is quite the let down compared to past generations and it's competition.

As far as tunes are concerned they should be an accent to an already great platform. The comments in the M4 forum seem to mention tunes at every turn and how much power that's going to put out while forgetting that part of the charm of the M cars is how they drive and M has never had the most powerful engines. The mixed feelings that the pro reviewers made about the steering, engine, and sound are ignored or deleted and the focus is the "get a tune bro" mentality rather then focusing on driving dynamics and whether the M4 is a scalpel as previous gens were. Plus add in the inability of those on the M4 forum to discuss things in a civilized manner and you can see this car is going to attract the young crowd who tune the car while getting beat by 328s at the track. (No offense to M4 owners who can drive haha).

And yes there is the show off side to me that when I start the car or pull into a parking lot and downshift and the s65 rev matches and grunts and all eyes look to me and give the thumbs up. When the M4 drives up people are going to think someone is walking around with a weed whacker.

As a M fanboy and given the M4 is still first pick for my next car I want it to be spectacular given the competition. Of course I need to drive the car. Complaints and praise are valid but the M4 guys who defend the car without ever seeing let alone driving one are as bad as if the car is dismissed without driving one based on YouTube videos.

Cheers.

[JRV]

Yes tiny chainsaw we all know the M high revving motors are done for. Why are you car shopping for me? Lol The M3 I have now is working just fine.
So let me sum it up for you since you seem to misunderstand what I write , twist it into something else and then accuse me.
If I want an M3 I want a high revving NA power plant. If I want a Ferrari I want a high revving NA power plant. If I want a Lexus LFA then I am getting it for that pimp N/A V10. Ok so now if I want a turbo car I would not want an M3. You still following? I would take a Porsche, 2JZ Supra, the up coming Eau Rogue or a GTR. The list is endless. So basically if I want an M3 I want what an M3 always has been. If they change then I hold on to what I have or buy another brand. It's a choice and it's great to have.

[malrash]

Originally Posted by Tiny Chainsaw

You can't know until you've driven it. And I doubt it can be compared against the GTR, as reviewers didn't even think of comparing it to the GTR. It's true that both cars are twin turbo'd, but the similarities end there.
Inline-6 vs V-6
RWD vs AWD
3.0 liter displacement vs 3.8
Daily driver vs track monster
engine revs to 7600 vs 7000
german refinement vs noisy GTR cabin
And probably the biggest thing is that M4 has the option of 6MT vs the GTR being forced to have an automatic


Of course you can't forget the 40K bump in price tag from the BMW to the GTR.. That's pretty much almost costing twice as much as an M3/M4 to get a GTR.. Not to mention that is a pretty big tuning budget that can be used on the m3/m4...
I would take an M4 over a GTR any day, as it suits my needs way more. Being more refined and cheaper is a plus IMO.

Either way, it's definitely not a car that can be compared to the GTR, find something more in that price range with that type of refinement and you'll see that the competition dwindles down to none. (RS5 is V-8 and 10K more still slower, C63AMG is also v-8 and with 450 hp can only put down 0-60 in 4.4, this car blows both of these out the water, maybe the new corvette though).

I don't give a rat's ass whether the new M3 has more creature comforts than the GTR. The emphasis is on power delivery, they are very similar. You can wrap one around a little fancier with more insulation, and call it a daily driver...that's your call. To me, when I depress the accelerator the power delivery from both should be very comparable. The constant build-up of power that is truly intoxicating with well engineered NA engines is a feeling to be missed.

And also, if you are calling someone a ricer, don't add 'LOL' at the end of the sentence. Make them want to sh*t on you more. Free advice.

[Tiny Chainsaw]

Originally Posted by Prowess Symphony

Yes the M4 engine is based off of a regular series engine that is found in many cars obviously it has some changes to it but that engine was used because of the regulations and without those regulations it's logical that a different engine would have been used.

Sound is subjective and past M's have sounded bad but when it's competition is twin turbo v8s and other powerful sounding cars and the previous gen was the great sounding s65 the engine in the M4 is quite the let down compared to past generations and it's competition.

As far as tunes are concerned they should be an accent to an already great platform. The comments in the M4 forum seem to mention tunes at every turn and how much power that's going to put out while forgetting that part of the charm of the M cars is how they drive and M has never had the most powerful engines. The mixed feelings that the pro reviewers made about the steering, engine, and sound are ignored or deleted and the focus is the "get a tune bro" mentality rather then focusing on driving dynamics and whether the M4 is a scalpel as previous gens were. Plus add in the inability of those on the M4 forum to discuss things in a civilized manner and you can see this car is going to attract the young crowd who tune the car while getting beat by 328s at the track. (No offense to M4 owners who can drive haha).

And yes there is the show off side to me that when I start the car or pull into a parking lot and downshift and the s65 rev matches and grunts and all eyes look to me and give the thumbs up. When the M4 drives up people are going to think someone is walking around with a weed whacker.

As a M fanboy and given the M4 is still first pick for my next car I want it to be spectacular given the competition. Of course I need to drive the car. Complaints and praise are valid but the M4 guys who defend the car without ever seeing let alone driving one are as bad as if the car is dismissed without driving one based on YouTube videos.

Cheers.

If defending the M3/M4 based on cold hard facts was a crime then yeah I'm guilty. Other than the subjective parts of the M4, everything is still better in every way. I'm not sure how old you are, but the M4 would be out of reach to the "young people" crowd unless you consider mid 20s to 30s to be young... And unless your drifting the whole way around the track there is no way a 328 will even come close to an M3/M4... Either way, I've pretty much proved my point that the M3/M4 is better than the e9x M3 in every aspect except the points where it doesn't even really matter to me(sound). (Engine and steering have resulted in mixed reviews, but for me I'm pretty confident that the engine is much stronger than the old one and steering feel is still subjective)

Originally Posted by JRV

Yes tiny chainsaw we all know the M high revving motors are done for. Why are you car shopping for me? Lol The M3 I have now is working just fine.
So let me sum it up for you since you seem to misunderstand what I write , twist it into something else and then accuse me.
If I want an M3 I want a high revving NA power plant. If I want a Ferrari I want a high revving NA power plant. If I want a Lexus LFA then I am getting it for that pimp N/A V10. Ok so now if I want a turbo car I would not want an M3. You still following? I would take a Porsche, 2JZ Supra, the up coming Eau Rogue or a GTR. The list is endless. So basically if I want an M3 I want what an M3 always has been. If they change then I hold on to what I have or buy another brand. It's a choice and it's great to have.

Thanks for clarifying, should've said that from the get-go instead of trying to argue with me that the current e9x m3 is better than the f8x m3/m4 due to the sound and high revving character, which is the point I disagree on.

Originally Posted by malrash

I don't give a rat's ass whether the new M3 has more creature comforts than the GTR. The emphasis is on power delivery, they are very similar. You can wrap one around a little fancier with more insulation, and call it a daily driver...that's your call. To me, when I depress the accelerator the power delivery from both should be very comparable. The constant build-up of power that is truly intoxicating with well engineered NA engines is a feeling to be missed.

And also, if you are calling someone a ricer, don't add 'LOL' at the end of the sentence. Make them want to sh*t on you more. Free advice.

Like I said in the beginning of my post addressed to you, both cars are twin turbo'd but the similarities end there. You can compare the new m3/m4 to any car that is twin turbo'd not only the GTR. I can't deny the fact that V-8's and twin turbo'd engines have very different characteristics and if that is why you chose a different car other than the new m3/m4 then that would be a valid reason. But if you're saying the V-8 in the e9x M3 is better than the TT inline-6 F8x m3/m4, then that's just lying.

[mPlasticDesign]

Originally Posted by Tiny Chainsaw

Too much speculative BS on this thread...

All I hear are butthurt e9x M3 fanboys who are trying to justify keeping their M3... I mean are some seriously claiming that the F8X M3/M4 won't be able to be tuned?... Seriously? LOL

M3/M4 is better than the E9x m3 in almost every way...
Do you think BMW would purposely tarnish their flagship car??
People are hard wired to resist change and its a shame.

Who is the real fanboy? And who is the true enthusiast? I think If you've owned every generation M3 from E36 to E90 and an E92 and start looking to other brands for the type of car you want, you are a true enthusiast. That person is so not afraid of change they are willing to go to another brand after all.

From my perspective most of the over the top comments in favor of the M3/4 that hasn't even been driven by them are from non-E9x owners(135i, 335i, etc.) Coincidence? It's almost validation for their "335i vs. M3" arguement now that the new M3/4 engine more resembles the car they currently drive and not the NA 8400rpm V8.

BMW is not purposely tarnishing their flagship and no one is suggesting that, but they are looking for ways to bring cost down and profits up inside the M brand, I don't even think that is up for debate. So why not put the fanboism aside and consider another brand, GTR if you like turbos or how 'bout the baby LFA that Lexus has coming with a NA 5.0 V8? That's what I'm doing. One thing is for sure, I'm not interested in the new M3/4.

Some companies are keeping NA High Revving V8's alive, contrary to what you think...

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by Tiny Chainsaw

You do realize that your 335i is not an M car right? Meaning it doesn't have an M engine and it is not track ready. S55 is not an N54 or N55, it is a track tuned and M3/M4 specific engine. Sure you can say it's derived from the N54 or N55, but that only means that it is BETTER than both the N54 and N55, most likely better in the cooling department also. Why would they put the FMIC into the center of the engine bay? Why would they add additional oil coolers and basically revamp the whole engine bay? Probably to.. I don't know.. make the car track ready like they said they would? LOL. No reviewers have met any trouble with over-heating yet, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Hopefully you're wrong and the M3/M4 will not have cooling issues.

what dude? please bruh. The N54 in my 335I is an M engine. Check your facts. It's sitting in the 1M engine bay right now. S55 is a twin turbo BMW inline 6. Besides the 1,600F exhaust gas temps that I mentioned, the oil and water are re-routed, to cool the turbos. Read: they touch the turbos which are at 1,600F! We tried two giant oil coolers, and some guys even threw in methanol, which is the only thing that works, except methanol runs out, and more importantly is probably the most toxic chemical in the world.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by Tiny Chainsaw

All I hear are butthurt e9x M3 fanboys who are trying to justify keeping their M3... I mean are some seriously claiming that the F8X M3/M4 won't be able to be tuned?... Seriously? LOL.

errr... but to date, no one has been able to flash tune an F-series BMW. Just saying. BMW learned from the N54 powered 335I, a very valuable lesson about releasing a car that every tom, dick, and harry can tune.

Originally Posted by Tiny Chainsaw

M3/M4 is better than the E9x m3 in almost every way...
Do you think BMW would purposely tarnish their flagship car??
People are hard wired to resist change and its a shame.

Not every new model is better than it's predecessor, ant that's an automotive fact. Just look a the 350Z vs the 300ZX

[JRV]

Looks like another cost cutting route is the N55 for the upcoming M2.
I can see Norbert watching us through his crystal ball laughing and saying "Fools!"

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by Tiny Chainsaw

S55 is definitely a step up from the n54 and n55. (Yes you can tune the n54, and I actually have a tuned n54, but even with FBO I'm not making even close to the 425HP mark). And as for the chassis body differences.. side grills are definitely different, power dome is still unique to the m3/m4 and so is the rear diffuser and having a wider body is just the normal. The differences in the body are very similar to the 3 series vs the e9x m3, you can say the same for the e9x 3 series... Slap on CF roof wrap, change the side mirrors, change the hood and boom you have an M3...

Absolutely, 100% false! The N54 is superior to the S55 in every way imaginable Specifically the pistons, and rods. Just read the terminology that BMW used to describe both engines in their technical manual. I'll post them up when I have the time, but the pistons, rod, crank, and bottom end of the N54 is "reinforced". And this has been proven on the streets. The S55's pistons and rods, are not "reinforced", which is why BMW when the extra mile to kill off aftermarket flash tunning.

[Rupes]

Originally Posted by Tiny Chainsaw

If defending the M3/M4 based on cold hard facts was a crime then yeah I'm guilty. Other than the subjective parts of the M4, everything is still better in every way. I'm not sure how old you are, but the M4 would be out of reach to the "young people" crowd unless you consider mid 20s to 30s to be young... And unless your drifting the whole way around the track there is no way a 328 will even come close to an M3/M4... Either way, I've pretty much proved my point that the M3/M4 is better than the e9x M3 in every aspect except the points where it doesn't even really matter to me(sound). (Engine and steering have resulted in mixed reviews, but for me I'm pretty confident that the engine is much stronger than the old one and steering feel is still subjective)

...
But if you're saying the V-8 in the e9x M3 is better than the TT inline-6 F8x m3/m4, then that's just lying.

1 - Yes, most people think mid 20's are young. Only people younger than that think otherwise.

2 - Just because something is faster, handles better, etc. does not make it "better." It makes it, faster and handle better. "Feel" is an important aspect for people who have owned more than one car in their lifetime. Many people have said the GT-R, one of the fastest and best handling cars around are a bore to drive. The jury's still out on the feel of this car and I think that's whats being discussed.

3 - You said the engine is stronger. Not sure what that means, The internals are better built? It dissipates heat better (lol)? Question: which do you think costs more, the S65 or the S55?

So yea, count me in for thinking the S65 is a better engine. Not the engine of the future maybe, but if I got to pick which one came in the new car, I know what I'd choose. What I would have loved to have seen is further development of the S65 instead of further developing an N55 engine. Wow imagine how sweet that could have been!

[Law]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

what dude? please bruh. The N54 in my 335I is an M engine. Check your facts. It's sitting in the 1M engine bay right now. S55 is a twin turbo BMW inline 6. Besides the 1,600F exhaust gas temps that I mentioned, the oil and water are re-routed, to cool the turbos. Read: they touch the turbos which are at 1,600F! We tried two giant oil coolers, and some guys even threw in methanol, which is the only thing that works, except methanol runs out, and more importantly is probably the most toxic chemical in the world.

Sorry but the N54 is not an "M" engine. The N54 is just that, an N54. It is a BMW AG series motor.
For starters, engines developed by M GmbH (with the exception of the M88 in the M1) are given a letter "S" prefix. Just because the N54 is used in the 1M does not make it an M GmbH motor. I thought this was common knowledge.

Just wanted to get this fact straightened out because fanboys come in many shapes & sizes on this thread and the N54 fanboys are not any better than the rest.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by Law

Sorry but the N54 is not an "M" engine. The N54 is just that, an N54. It is a BMW AG series motor.
For starters, engines developed by M GmbH (with the exception of the M88 in the M1) are given a letter "S" prefix. Just because the N54 is used in the 1M does not make it an M GmbH motor. I thought this was common knowledge.

Just wanted to get this fact straightened out because fanboys come in many shapes & sizes on this thread and the N54 fanboys are not any better than the rest.

Don't matter which way you cut it, it's in a production M car. Making it an M engine. Why is that so hard to digest. Anyways who even cares if it's an M engine or not? It's still hands down the strongest and baddest BMW engine ever made. In fact the only engine to compare it to is the 2jz in the supra.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by Rupes

2 - Just because something is faster, handles better, etc. does not make it "better." It makes it, faster and handle better. "Feel" is an important aspect for people who have owned more than one car in their lifetime. Many people have said the GT-R, one of the fastest and best handling cars around are a bore to drive. The jury's still out on the feel of this car and I think that's whats being discussed.

I'm sorry but the S55 M3 is not faster than the S65 M3. Period, end of story. Sure drag racing on the streets on a 70 degree day, you will put a few car lengths on the older M3 by the 1/4 mile mark, but that's how kids compare cars. Lets go to a local track. Specifically, a 3-4 mile circuit with plenty of turns and say maybe only one straight. Oh yes, and lets do this mid summer in the US South west. That's a 80-100 degree day. Next lets have two expert drivers in each car. Lets try and do 20 back to back hard laps with both cars.

1. The new M3 won't do more than 5 laps without pegging the oil guage at 300F, and limp home.

2. The new M3's 5th lap time will be at least 5 seconds slower than it's first.

3. The old M3 will finish the test

4. A look at the old M3's lap times will show that as the driver learned the course, his lap times got faster, thus lap 15-20 were run at or faster than laps 1-5.

[Law]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

Don't matter which way you cut it, it's in a production M car. Making it an M engine. Why is that so hard to digest. Anyways who even cares if it's an M engine or not? It's still hands down the strongest and baddest BMW engine ever made. In fact the only engine to compare it to is the 2jz in the supra.

The N54 is a great motor & i am not dismissing its credibility but your assumption that it is an M GmbH motor on the basis that it is used in an M car is completely erroneous.
The 850CSi that used an M GmbH S70 V12 is not an M car. So based on your logic, the S70 is not an M engine because it is a regular AG model. But you'd be wrong. The S70 is, in fact, an M engine but the 850CSi is not an M car.
This is not hard to understand.

A Mac that uses Intel processors doesn't all of a sudden turn the processors into Apple processors, they are still Intel. Please use some common sense.

[TurboBimmer]

Originally Posted by Tiny Chainsaw

You do realize that your 335i is not an M car right? Meaning it doesn't have an M engine and it is not track ready. S55 is not an N54 or N55, it is a track tuned and M3/M4 specific engine. Sure you can say it's derived from the N54 or N55, but that only means that it is BETTER than both the N54 and N55, most likely better in the cooling department also. Why would they put the FMIC into the center of the engine bay? Why would they add additional oil coolers and basically revamp the whole engine bay? Probably to.. I don't know.. make the car track ready like they said they would? LOL. No reviewers have met any trouble with over-heating yet, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Hopefully you're wrong and the M3/M4 will not have cooling issues.

Wow, this thread was a great read until your post. Fanboyism is strong with this one...

So every engine is great as long as it starts with an S? Maybe you need to read up about the issues with the M5 V8 and the V10 engines. The S54 is prone to blowing head gaskets left and right if not warmed up properly each and every time before you step on it. The S65 is actually considered as one of the more reliable M engines despite the rod bearing issues.

An N54 is bulletproof in comparison. Problems arise with the peripherals only, such as HPFP, injectors and coils. The engine itself rarely fails, if at all.

As the 335i was not intended for track duty, you can't really blame BMW for the cooling issues. It's still a shame though. However it would quite simply be devastating if the same would happen with the M4!

[Tiny Chainsaw]

Originally Posted by Mr.Metak2you

Who is the real fanboy? And who is the true enthusiast? I think If you've owned every generation M3 from E36 to E90 and an E92 and start looking to other brands for the type of car you want, you are a true enthusiast. That person is so not afraid of change they are willing to go to another brand after all.

From my perspective most of the over the top comments in favor of the M3/4 that hasn't even been driven by them are from non-E9x owners(135i, 335i, etc.) Coincidence? It's almost validation for their "335i vs. M3" arguement now that the new M3/4 engine more resembles the car they currently drive and not the NA 8400rpm V8.

BMW is not purposely tarnishing their flagship and no one is suggesting that, but they are looking for ways to bring cost down and profits up inside the M brand, I don't even think that is up for debate. So why not put the fanboism aside and consider another brand, GTR if you like turbos or how 'bout the baby LFA that Lexus has coming with a NA 5.0 V8? That's what I'm doing. One thing is for sure, I'm not interested in the new M3/4.

Some companies are keeping NA High Revving V8's alive, contrary to what you think...

Agreed on costs, and agreed on the N54-engine vs E9x M-engine debate. But I'm not sure what you're trying to argue with me? I agree too that it is necessary to change to another brand if you feel BMW took the wrong step. And as for the NA high revving V8s, it is a dying breed, Audi, Mercedes and Ferrari are taking steps towards going FI by turboing their cars. In this day and age, turbos are the answer for more power and more eco-friendly cars.

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

what dude? please bruh. The N54 in my 335I is an M engine. Check your facts. It's sitting in the 1M engine bay right now. S55 is a twin turbo BMW inline 6. Besides the 1,600F exhaust gas temps that I mentioned, the oil and water are re-routed, to cool the turbos. Read: they touch the turbos which are at 1,600F! We tried two giant oil coolers, and some guys even threw in methanol, which is the only thing that works, except methanol runs out, and more importantly is probably the most toxic chemical in the world.

Not an M engine, I'll agree that it's a great engine with a lot of power on tap, but still not an M engine. 335i's were not tuned for tracking, they were meant for a daily driver, hence the hundreds of unmodified 335i's you see everyday on your daily commute.

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

errr... but to date, no one has been able to flash tune an F-series BMW. Just saying. BMW learned from the N54 powered 335I, a very valuable lesson about releasing a car that every tom, dick, and harry can tune.





Not every new model is better than it's predecessor, ant that's an automotive fact. Just look a the 350Z vs the 300ZX

True, but the demand from m3/m4 owners will cause tuners to try even harder to crack the code.
And also true that not every new model is better than it's predecessor, but in this case it is true in every way. It's cold hard facts that it's faster, more eco friendly and handles better. (steering feel and sound are up for debate, but this is very negligible)

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

Absolutely, 100% false! The N54 is superior to the S55 in every way imaginable Specifically the pistons, and rods. Just read the terminology that BMW used to describe both engines in their technical manual. I'll post them up when I have the time, but the pistons, rod, crank, and bottom end of the N54 is "reinforced". And this has been proven on the streets. The S55's pistons and rods, are not "reinforced", which is why BMW when the extra mile to kill off aftermarket flash tunning.

This is a dumb statement. n54 is not superior, it's not even an M-engine. S55 engine has forged internals and about everything else. They killed off aftermarket flash tuning in order to keep their in-house tuning packages more viable, (PPK1, PPK2 etc) but it won't last for long.

Originally Posted by Rupes

1 - Yes, most people think mid 20's are young. Only people younger than that think otherwise.

2 - Just because something is faster, handles better, etc. does not make it "better." It makes it, faster and handle better. "Feel" is an important aspect for people who have owned more than one car in their lifetime. Many people have said the GT-R, one of the fastest and best handling cars around are a bore to drive. The jury's still out on the feel of this car and I think that's whats being discussed.

3 - You said the engine is stronger. Not sure what that means, The internals are better built? It dissipates heat better (lol)? Question: which do you think costs more, the S65 or the S55?

So yea, count me in for thinking the S65 is a better engine. Not the engine of the future maybe, but if I got to pick which one came in the new car, I know what I'd choose. What I would have loved to have seen is further development of the S65 instead of further developing an N55 engine. Wow imagine how sweet that could have been!

1. I'd say that's middle-aged.
2. It's a bore to drive because the electronics do everything for you, this is not the case for the M3/M4 (6MT, RWD, LSD = fun).
3. The engine being stronger means that it is more powerful, simple as that.

S65 isn't a better engine, the S55 is better in every single way except for the debatable subjects (sound, 'turbo lag' *which many reviewers did not detect*).
Even the person who owns the e90 m3 and 1m says that the f80 m3 is much better in every single aspect.

Originally Posted by Law

Sorry but the N54 is not an "M" engine. The N54 is just that, an N54. It is a BMW AG series motor.
For starters, engines developed by M GmbH (with the exception of the M88 in the M1) are given a letter "S" prefix. Just because the N54 is used in the 1M does not make it an M GmbH motor. I thought this was common knowledge.

Just wanted to get this fact straightened out because fanboys come in many shapes & sizes on this thread and the N54 fanboys are not any better than the rest.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Autobahn335i

Wow, this thread was a great read until your post. Fanboyism is strong with this one...

So every engine is great as long as it starts with an S? Maybe you need to read up about the issues with the M5 V8 and the V10 engines. The S54 is prone to blowing head gaskets left and right if not warmed up properly each and every time before you step on it. The S65 is actually considered as one of the more reliable M engines despite the rod bearing issues.

An N54 is bulletproof in comparison. Problems arise with the peripherals only, such as HPFP, injectors and coils. The engine itself rarely fails, if at all.

As the 335i was not intended for track duty, you can't really blame BMW for the cooling issues. It's still a shame though. However it would quite simply be devastating if the same would happen with the M4!

I never said that every M-engine is great. What are you referring to fanboy-ism when all I'm stating are facts? I was arguing the fact that the n54 in the 335i is not an m engine and the car as a whole was never meant for long term tracking and therefore it had cooling issues which the other poster was trying to say the new m3/m4 will probably have also.

I don't think you read my response correctly or you interpreted the wrong way. You do know I also own an N54 powered vehicle right? If anything that just shows to prove that my post is unbiased unlike yours... seeing that you own a 335i and you're trying to defend the n54...

[malrash]

Originally Posted by Tiny Chainsaw

S65 isn't a better engine, the S55 is better in every single way except for the debatable subjects (sound, 'turbo lag' *which many reviewers did not detect*).

Keep repeating that. Might come true some day.

[Tiny Chainsaw]

Originally Posted by Killerfish2012

I'm sorry but the S55 M3 is not faster than the S65 M3. Period, end of story. Sure drag racing on the streets on a 70 degree day, you will put a few car lengths on the older M3 by the 1/4 mile mark, but that's how kids compare cars. Lets go to a local track. Specifically, a 3-4 mile circuit with plenty of turns and say maybe only one straight. Oh yes, and lets do this mid summer in the US South west. That's a 80-100 degree day. Next lets have two expert drivers in each car. Lets try and do 20 back to back hard laps with both cars.

1. The new M3 won't do more than 5 laps without pegging the oil guage at 300F, and limp home.

2. The new M3's 5th lap time will be at least 5 seconds slower than it's first.

3. The old M3 will finish the test

4. A look at the old M3's lap times will show that as the driver learned the course, his lap times got faster, thus lap 15-20 were run at or faster than laps 1-5.

This is the speculative hypothetical BS that I'm talking about. Please cut the bull and stop speculating. On paper, the E9x M3 gets murdered by the F8X M3/M4 in every single way... Once more people do get ahold of the m3/m4 and race it against the e9x M3, I will definitely hold you accountable for this dumb post you've made.

Originally Posted by malrash

Keep repeating that. Might come true some day.

Everything points to a better car and people like you just refuse to admit it because you own the previous generation e9x m3. No point arguing with a person that is delusional and won't listen to cold hard facts

[phrozen06]

Originally Posted by Tiny Chainsaw

This is the speculative hypothetical BS that I'm talking about. Please cut the bull and stop speculating. On paper, the E9x M3 gets murdered by the F8X M3/M4 in every single way... Once more people do get ahold of the m3/m4 and race it against the e9x M3,

I have to agree, I don't think the E9x M will be able to keep up with the F8X M. It has improved in every way. It's lighter and has more power.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by Tiny Chainsaw

True, but the demand from m3/m4 owners will cause tuners to try even harder to crack the code.

The N54 has shadow codes that show up once the car is tuned. Note: shadow codes cannot be erased. The S55 will no doubt have them. Folks will most likely use piggy packs to tune them, but with the shadow codes BMW WILL void those warranties.

Originally Posted by Tiny Chainsaw

And also true that not every new model is better than it's predecessor, but in this case it is true in every way. It's cold hard facts that it's faster, more eco friendly and handles better.

See post #148

Originally Posted by Tiny Chainsaw

This is a dumb statement. n54 is not superior, it's not even an M-engine. S55 engine has forged internals and about everything else. They killed off aftermarket flash tuning in order to keep their in-house tuning packages more viable, (PPK1, PPK2 etc) but it won't last for long.

What's dumb is your use of the word "forged" BMW engineers use the term "re-enforced", and didn't use this term for specific S55 engine components, but used the term for their N54 counterparts.

Also mark my words. The S55 will not be able to handle anywhere near what the N54 can on a daily basis. It will never, ever match our dyno numbers. EVER.

Originally Posted by Tiny Chainsaw

S65 isn't a better engine, the S55 is better in every single way except for the debatable subjects (sound, 'turbo lag' *which many reviewers did not detect*).
Even the person who owns the e90 m3 and 1m says that the f80 m3 is much better in every single aspect.

The S55 is SMALLER than the S65, and needs electronically controlled (maintenance pain) tiny turbos to make power.