Saying Hello!

[Pancho]

Hello, I am Pancho. I am also a new member of this forum and very pleased to participate here with all you guys. As you will find, everybody here is really passionate about M3's and I agree the topics discussed are pretty interesting. I have learned a lot of my M3 E92 here.

[UltimateBMW]

Originally Posted by Epacy

Welcome. We look forward to seeing your ride.
Get used to threads going OT.

He speaks the truth.

[the_stranger]

Originally Posted by UltimateBMW

I am 23, I'll be 24 in August, which is a fair ways away. Thanks for asking, if anyone is younger than me I'd really be surprised.

I am 19

[EnzoB]

Originally Posted by Champagne

Just out of curiosity... And waaay of topic (if there even was a proper topic guidline ) How old are you?

I am getting used to the way of topic part. I am 23 years old, soon to be 24.

I will most likely get the M3 this summer, but I will have to consider a few things before I make the purchase. I travel quite frequently and I want to make sure that I will really have the time to appreciate the car and use it. Most likely the car will be with me in my Cali house instead of Chicago, so I will to talk to some dealers out west, any suggestions?

Thanks to everyone who have received their cars and posted pics, it really helps with the wait.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon

Me?--older than dirt!

Time tested; pillar of stability and integrity shall we say?

[GregW / Oregon]

Originally Posted by lucid

Time tested; pillar of stability and integrity shall we say?

You got it. But I've still got my adventurous side, shall we say.

[OzStriker]

Originally Posted by mofomat

I had the impression that nobody on this board was above the age of 15.

+1

[OzStriker]

Originally Posted by EnzoB

Thanks to everyone who have received their cars and posted pics, it really helps with the wait.

-1

Photos and positive comments from owners are painful and mean for those of us waiting!!!!!

[kelvin12382003]

Originally Posted by Champagne

I just turned 19, 11th of November... Surprise surprise! ;D

Hi mate

I guess we are the same

same date lol

I am 19

check this out

[Champagne]

Originally Posted by kelvin12382003

I guess we are the same

same date lol

Happy birthday almost 3 weeks late then

That truly is a lovely lookin' car! Sparkling graphite? I was thinking of going with Sparkling graphite + Fox red interior but then my dealer showed me a sample of the interior and it was truly terrible... Ended up going with SSII + Extended black lether interior.

[kelvin12382003]

Originally Posted by Champagne

Happy birthday almost 3 weeks late then

That truly is a lovely lookin' car! Sparkling graphite? I was thinking of going with Sparkling graphite + Fox red interior but then my dealer showed me a sample of the interior and it was truly terrible... Ended up going with SSII + Extended black lether interior.

Thanks mate

Truly is a lovely car. you wont disappoint

are you waiting for the DCT?

when is your delivery ?

Regards

[Champagne]

Originally Posted by kelvin12382003

Thanks mate

Truly is a lovely car. you wont disappoint

are you waiting for the DCT?

when is your delivery ?

Regards

I better not be... The break-in is my biggest concern at this moment though...

Since my delivery is scheduled 5th of December... I think it's safe to say that I'm not waiting for the DCT hehe :-) Besides... I think that real cars are driven with a stick, it engages the driver in such a way as you become an important part of the car itself!

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Champagne

Besides... I think that real cars are driven with a stick, it engages the driver in such a way as you become an important part of the car itself!

Pardon my DCT soap box for a minute... Not trying to change your mind or belittle your choice. You are going to have a fantastic ride and I'm sure you will love it. However, here is my 2 cents.

Pushing a pedal in and out and rowing a lever back and forth is not the essence of driving. Some may argue it is, but probably not many. IMHO the essense of sporty driving is getting from A to B in the fastest, smoothest fashion while simultaneously driving on your and your cars outer limits. Rowing the gears in a MT box is just a historically necessary "evil" that is in fact no longer necessary. Automated manual transmissions allow you to free your mind and body to concentrate better on things a computer and hydraulics simply can not do nearly as good as a human; steering, dynamically setting up the weight balance in a car, managing things delicately just at the sliding points, braking, optimizing throttle on/off points etc. If you do not bother to push your limits a AMT could in fact feel less involving. We and our brains realize that driving a MT really well is difficult and we like to pat ourselves on the back when we master such a difficult process. It is then tough to let go of this mastery. But it is letting go of the past, letting go of an antiquated technology and moving toward a higher plateau

If you spend some time driving very hard with an automated manual I suspect (despite your opinion above) you will find plenty of new ways to become one with a car that are more rewarding than rowing the gears. Much like a computer you only have so much bandwidth in your brain and the elimination of shifting allows the limited resources to be better allocated.

You should also try not to be biased against the power of computers to improve our cars, us as drivers and the entire driving experience. Hoardes of folks have said comments similar to yours about modern engine electronics, modern safety systems, variable valve timing, pollution control systems, etc. It is tough to argue that these systems have not been dramatically improved by computers. A DCT is really the same situation.

The other major advantages of DCT are:
-Consistency. Even the best MT driver can't rev match as consistently as a DCT box. Also there is 0 risk of mis-shifting with DCT
-Convenience: Gotta love that AT mode for lazy or hellish traffic times or for the wife/GF if they prefer it.
-Straight line performance. MT can't touch DCT

Cheers, thanks for listening to my long rant...

P.S. Is this a "real" car?

[Epacy]

Swamp, seems like you are really trying to sell people on DCT.
You could be a campaign manager for a presidental candidate.

[Champagne]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Pardon my DCT soap box for a minute... Not trying to change your mind or belittle your choice. You are going to have a fantastic ride and I'm sure you will love it. However, here is my 2 cents.

Pushing a pedal in and out and rowing a lever back and forth is not the essence of driving. Some may argue it is, but probably not many. IMHO the essense of sporty driving is getting from A to B in the fastest, smoothest fashion while simultaneously driving on your and your cars outer limits. Rowing the gears in a MT box is just a historically necessary "evil" that is in fact no longer necessary. Automated manual transmissions allow you to free your mind and body to concentrate better on things a computer and hydraulics simply can not do nearly as good as a human; steering, dynamically setting up the weight balance in a car, managing things delicately just at the sliding points, braking, optimizing throttle on/off points etc. If you do not bother to push your limits a AMT could in fact feel less involving. We and our brains realize that driving a MT really well is difficult and we like to pat ourselves on the back when we master such a difficult process. It is then tough to let go of this mastery. But it is letting go of the past, letting go of an antiquated technology and moving toward a higher plateau

If you spend some time driving very hard with an automated manual I suspect (despite your opinion above) you will find plenty of new ways to become one with a car that are more rewarding than rowing the gears. Much like a computer you only have so much bandwidth in your brain and the elimination of shifting allows the limited resources to be better allocated.

You should also try not to be biased against the power of computers to improve our cars, us as drivers and the entire driving experience. Hoardes of folks have said comments similar to yours about modern engine electronics, modern safety systems, variable valve timing, pollution control systems, etc. It is tough to argue that these systems have not been dramatically improved by computers. A DCT is really the same situation.

The other major advantages of DCT are:
-Consistency. Even the best MT driver can't rev match as consistently as a DCT box. Also there is 0 risk of mis-shifting with DCT
-Convenience: Gotta love that AT mode for lazy or hellish traffic times or for the wife/GF if they prefer it.
-Straight line performance. MT can't touch DCT

Cheers, thanks for listening to my long rant...

P.S. Is this a "real" car?

I do realize that, but I hate automated cars. I have nothing against SMG (and now DCT) if you drive it in "semi-manual" mode. But I think somewhere you just gotta have to draw a line. My line is when the computers start to interact with the humans work, in 10 years I wouldn't be surprised if the cars drive theirself along the racetracks and you just sit there like in a rollercoaster. BMW are now implementing a system that should warn you through slight vibrations (and sound if it is more in your liking if I'm not remembering wrong) if you're starting to get close/run over your lanes lining. MB actually have produced a car which makes you able to jump into the back seat while on the motorway and it drives itself, now... Considering exactly what you said... The human brain only have so much bandwidth, when is it time to eliminate us all to just enjoy the ride? My line is when computers interact with humans doings. With that being said I'm all for ECU chipsets and such other technologies since they really don't interfere with the driver if you see what I mean? I'm very positive when it comes to computers enhancing the drivers saftey... Like for instance ABS, airbags, anti-spin systems and DSC.

Now in Sweden we have a choice when we go and take our driverslicens (which is significantly harder than it is in the US ;-) ). We can either learn to drive manual, which gives us also clearance to drive automatic cars, or we only go for the automatic which puts us in a box... Eliminating all the manual cars. This could be a somewhat cultural things as well I believe because of this. 95% of all the drivers in Sweden are allowed to drive a stick and can do it (of course there's a difference between driving a stick and _driving_ a stick). Among my friends most of them are driving manuals since it's more fun. Only our parents are driving automates.

But like I think we both understand... This is a debate that truly could go on for ever Wanna join me in eternity? ;-)

[ruff]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Rowing the gears in a MT box is just a historically necessary "evil" that is in fact no longer necessary. Automated manual transmissions allow you to free your mind and body to concentrate better on things

Swamp, you have got to be kidding...."necessary "evil" and you call yourself a sports car enthusiast. What Motor Sports history are you talking about?...The Jetsons? For me, rowing the gears is an essential element of driving a sports car. What next?...maybe a computer to steer the car so you can free your mind and body of the horrors of driving. The Lexus 460 will now park the car for you. Maybe the M division can offer that option as well.

Nothing against DCT, Ferrari's version on the F430 is great, but to many, learning how to effectively heel and toe is sadly becoming a lost art form.

Have you read the GT-R's DCT looks like it is not too smooth in automated mode? Maybe SMG wasn't that far off with the latest technology on how smooth a dual clutch can perform in automated mode, at least in a high performance configuration.

Originally Posted by swamp2

-Straight line performance. MT can't touch DCT

You know this isn't necessarily true with 0-60, in fact, often it is not the case.

[paulyd]

Originally Posted by ruff

Swamp, you have got to be kidding...."necessary "evil" and you call yourself a sports car enthusiast. What Motor Sports history are you talking about?...The Jetsons? For me, rowing the gears is an essential element of driving a sports car. What next?...maybe a computer to steer the car so you can free your mind and body of the horrors of driving. The Lexus 460 will now park the car for you. Maybe the M division can offer that option as well.

Nothing against DCT, Ferrari's version on the F430 is great, but to many, learning how to effectively heel and toe is sadly becoming a lost art form.

Have you read the GT-R's DCT looks like it is not too smooth in automated mode? Maybe SMG wasn't that far off with the latest technology on how smooth a dual clutch can perform in automated mode, at least in a high performance configuration.


You know this isn't necessarily true with 0-60, in fact, often it is not the case.

dude are you kidding me?

this anti-DCT logic is so embarrassing!

The only reason manuals are part of driving is because man had not yet invented a machine that could shift more optimally than humans! So they had to leave shifting to humans. Swamps point is that the actual act of pushing the clutch pedal and rowing the gears is meaningless! Whats important is an optimal shift. DCT gives you the optimal shift, every time. If you care about 'performance' as you say, the DCT is better performance! Your heel-toeing is fuckin the antithesis of 'performance'. It's inefficient and suboptimal.

And the whole fear of technology replacing human autonomy is pathetic. You still have autonomy with a DCT. You just slap a paddle instead of rowing and pedal pushing! If you really derive so much of your human pride from the act of manual shifting, I think you have problems.

AND, if you really are so anti-progress and pro-traditionalism, then why don't you live in a hut you build with sticks, hunt for your food (no guns!), rub sticks together for a fire, wear a bearskin that you skinned with a knife you made!, and gather berries.
I'm sure starting a fire with your own hands when it was 10 degrees outside was pretty fuckin rewarding back in the day. Last time I checked we love our matches today.

I hope you boycott matches all of you hypocritical, illogical anti-DCTers.

and ruff, Nietzsche would be ashamed of this nonsense. Progress is good/fine. Man's greatest worth is progress, achievement, he is an end in himself. He would not waste his time heel-toeing, when he could be using DCT and moving on to the next conquest. ridiculous...

I'm out

Yours truly,
a MANUAL driver

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by ruff

Swamp, you have got to be kidding...."necessary "evil" and you call yourself a sports car enthusiast. What Motor Sports history are you talking about?...The Jetsons? For me, rowing the gears is an essential element of driving a sports car. What next?...maybe a computer to steer the car so you can free your mind and body of the horrors of driving. The Lexus 460 will now park the car for you. Maybe the M division can offer that option as well.

Nothing against DCT, Ferrari's version on the F430 is great, but to many, learning how to effectively heel and toe is sadly becoming a lost art form.

Have you read the GT-R's DCT looks like it is not too smooth in automated mode? Maybe SMG wasn't that far off with the latest technology on how smooth a dual clutch can perform in automated mode, at least in a high performance configuration.


You know this isn't necessarily true with 0-60, in fact, often it is not the case.

@Epacy: Thanks I will take that as a compliment.

@Champagne: I know exactly what you mean. I grew up driving on ice and snow most of the year in Alaska. Until the advent of AMTs I cherished my manual transmissions and it is all I have ever owned. I really think you should spend more time having some spirited driving with an AMT if you think they "interfere". Enhance is the only word I can come up with. Sure MB can design a car that steers or drives itself for a bit in a straight line but try that at a track. A computer would not be able to touch a person, not within an eternity of the time a human can achieve. I think DSC is a better point. Many who don't like AMTs also may argue against DSC - a damn computer "in charge" of the brakes, throttle, etc., "no control for the driver", "interfering" with the driver and the driving. I'd say no, it is enhancement, with both ABS and DSC.

Finally @ruff. Yes necessary evil. Read my post above again. Shifting is not driving. It is one very mechanical part of driving that your reward center in your particular brain will simply not let you abandon. Like I said above, I have always had MTs and cherished them. I appreciate my "limited" mastery of them and am quite happy to focus on more essential parts of my driving repertoire. It is abundantly clear from our individual likes and dislikes, our stances on technology and the like that one of us would like DCT better than the other. My OPINION on this matter (and it is only an opinion) really should not be so offensive nor insulting to you that you find it necesary to quetsion my status as an enthusiast. I find that fairly offensive. My touche back at you is simply don't be such a luddite.

BTW have you ever driven a high performance snowmobile? Plenty of opportunities for that out in your neck of the woods. They have these fantastic "clutchless" CVTs. Do you think these detract from the amazing rush you get on such machines in good snow on difficult terrain at ungodly speeds? One word - NOPE! Hope you see the relevance there.

Driving a MT is well on its way to becoming a lost art form. Have you heard the revenue estimations from the big guys like BW and Getrag on how much revenue AMTs will generate in the next years? Much like woodworking with traditional hand tools vs. crude power tools vs. full blown modern CNC equipment - the former two can be very personally rewarding and will always have their place. They just are not the most effective way to get a given job done and if going fast is the job, we know the right tool. (I spent my afternoon wood working actually, so that is how I came on this particular analogy).

On SMG: SMG just happens to be a very crude 1st generation AMT. No, SMGs are not very smooth and can be a bit awkward in both automatic and manual mode (but only awkaward till you adapt a bit to it in manual mode, then it is fantastic). Both SMGs (as evidenced by the video above) as well as DCTs like DSG are really pushing the limit and drastically improving on things compared to an early SMG. They are only going to get better!

On 0-60: The particular thorough test on the E46 M3 vs. SMG indeed showed that a very skilled MT driver can best an SMG in straight line contests. One big reason for this "upset" is bogus BMW marketing (ok actually somewhat bogus BMW technology as well). If the SMG II actually shifted anywhere close to the amount of time that they claim, things would not be this way. I trust you have seen the VW GTI DSG vs. MT videos? The DSG moves ahead at all speeds, most notably at shift points but does so right from the get go. If BMW botches or drastically limits the launch program for the M-DCT it may hinder the 0-40 (1st gear) slightly compared to the MT, but after that, all evidence points to "bye-bye".

[swamp2]

Chitown - ouch that was a bit harsh. Essentially true, but harsh.

Here we go again - the very bored M3post.com-ers go on the MT vs. AMT debate.

Thread hi-jack (sorry EnzoB) and

[ruff]

Originally Posted by chitown08

dude are you kidding me?

this anti-DCT logic is so embarrassing!

The only reason manuals are part of driving is because man had not yet invented a machine that could shift more optimally than humans! So they had to leave shifting to humans. Swamps point is that the actual act of pushing the clutch pedal and rowing the gears is meaningless! Whats important is an optimal shift. DCT gives you the optimal shift, every time. If you care about 'performance' as you say, the DCT is better performance! Your heel-toeing is fuckin the antithesis of 'performance'. It's inefficient and suboptimal.

And the whole fear of technology replacing human autonomy is pathetic. You still have autonomy with a DCT. You just slap a paddle instead of rowing and pedal pushing! If you really derive so much of your human pride from the act of manual shifting, I think you have problems.

AND, if you really are so anti-progress and pro-traditionalism, then why don't you live in a hut you build with sticks, hunt for your food (no guns!), rub sticks together for a fire, wear a bearskin that you skinned with a knife you made!, and gather berries.
I'm sure starting a fire with your own hands when it was 10 degrees outside was pretty fuckin rewarding back in the day. Last time I checked we love our matches today.

I hope you boycott matches all of you hypocritical, illogical anti-DCTers.

and ruff, Nietzsche would be ashamed of this nonsense. Progress is good/fine. Man's greatest worth is progress, achievement, he is an end in himself. He would not waste his time heel-toeing, when he could be using DCT and moving on to the next conquest. ridiculous...

I'm out

Yours truly,
a MANUAL driver

Dude? Where did you receive your formal education? So nice to hear from you. By the way, profanity doesn't make you look smarter or bolster your arguments, actually just the opposite. I didn't know you were also Swamp's sidekick. Like Sheriff Epacy said, Swamp can probably handle his own debates. Anyway, sounds like you have already mastered the heel and toe technique and are moving on to bigger and better things. You seem to be a ski enthusiast. You need to experience the powder in these here mountains. It just may change your viewpoint about life.

P.S. What Nietzsche are you reading?

[paulyd]

Originally Posted by ruff

Dude? Where did you receive your formal education? So nice to hear from you. By the way, profanity doesn't make you look smarter or bolster your arguments, actually just the opposite. I didn't know you were also Swamp's sidekick. Like E said, Swamp can probably handle his own debates. Anyway, sounds like you have already mastered the heel and toe technique and are moving on to bigger and better things. You seem to be a ski enthusiast. You need to experience the Powder, in these here mountains. It just may change your viewpoint about life.

swears are what happens when I have to endure illogical argument from mainly your mouth.

swears are what you attack because you couldn't refute anything I said, because it makes sense. You should try it. People wouldn't destroy you so often.

I am not swamps sidekick, nor will I ever be anyone's sidekick. That said, I approve of those who use reason, which swamp uses the majority of the time. And I disapprove of those who are illogical, especially when they purport to be logical. Enter you. Maybe you will understand if I put it this way: If you made a reasonable point, I would be your 'sidekick'.

I have experienced powder. What that has to do with anything related to this topic, I have no idea. I am fond of nature, including powder. And I am fond of skiing. Since you brought up skiing, I'll just take 30 seconds to re-destroy your logic- this time with a skiing example.

A few yrs back, something called 'parabolic' skis were invented. The sidecut of the ski was shaped in an arc which helped in turning. Put the ski on its edge, and it 'wants' to turn. You could say it 'turns FOR you'. So everyone adopted these new 'shaped' skis and threw out their old, 'straight'(edged) skis. Progress. Nobody said, "ohhhhh, but I was just learning to master the art of turning on straight skisssss"!!!

In case you missed, it this is whats called an analogy. The shaped skis represent progress (DCT), and the straight skis represent pointless inefficiency (manual).

If you ski, I hope you ski to your hut with straight skis- make that wooden skis since you are anti-innovation (composite skis). And once there, you grab some sticks and get rubbin.

Don't bother responding until you can reconcile your inconsistency in adoption of technology vs. denouncement.

[Epacy]

Everyone should have learned this by now: trying to get others to believe what you believe is futile. Let people make their own decisions. Otherwise, we are no better than certain governments that try to establish and implement their beliefs in the rest of the world. None of us want that.
A little grandiose, but relevant.