The rumour has it! M3 V8 Nordschleife in 8.03 min

[lucid]

Ruff, I am not sure that I am really understanding your "I am being objective" statement. I suppose you might very well be objective, but why does that have to mean that the rest of us aren't? Yeah, there might be a few exceptions, stray posts, here and there, but when you even things out, I think people are pretty objective on this forum overall when we really do start having a serious discussion. We certainly don't agree on many things, but I don't get the sense that people who post here on a regular basis are driven by badge loyalty. For me, it's just a car. Something you buy, enjoy, and sell. The only car that I owned that was more than that to me was my ’72 Karman Ghia; I can't take a brand new car too seriously in terms of it having character to the extent that I have some sort of subjective buy-in to it.

I have no issue with you jumping in on any debate I might be involved in, and challenging my opinion. That's what the forum is for. I only ask that if you do challenge my opinion, take the time to articulate why.

I am rather neutral towards SportsAuto. It is just another information source for me. I don't believe that I attacked their credibility. However, I did say that there is variability in their measurements, which is a part of the game, and the times should be interpreted accordingly and not as absolute numbers.

The tire discussion, on the other hand, is rather subjective depending on what one wants to get out of the laptimes. I, as a potential consumer, would like to see the C63, the RS4, and the M3 (and the GTR?) tested on the Ring on the same day by the same driver with the same tires back to back (I know it ain't gonna happen, but still...). That might inform me to a certain extent. I am not saying that would make me buy one car over the other, but it would inform me. I also would like to find out the absolute fastest time that can be achieved by these cars--with any driver, set of street tires, and weather conditions. That would help put things perspective.

[JEllis]

^ Does BMW actually report ring times they have achieved?

Closest I have heard of this is when the director of the M division said the new M3 is a few seconds faster than the M5 around the ring.

[lucid]

I don't know that they will ever come out and "officially" report a number for the M3, but I'd say that after thousands of instrumented laps with various drivers and conditions, they must have a very good idea about the fastest possible lap time, and that would leak out somehow eventually if not formally.

[JEllis]

I guess I am asking because I dont think there is such a thing as official BMW lap times. All we get is hearsay and leaks...

[lucid]

True. I can imagine a scenario where magazine X publishes time Y, and M people are asked to comment on interviews and stuff, and someone finally saying something about it being slow or about right or something like that. I also bet that the M division has had a specific laptime in mind as an internal goal all along during development--as an engineering requirement. Those kinds of projects need and utilize such concrete requirements to structure the development effort. Not to say that it has been met or not.

[JEllis]

^ Your probably right about BMW having a time in mind and knowing a reasonable Lap time already. I guess we will just have to wait and see if they release any information or have any comments about SportAuto

Jason

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by JEllis

^ Does BMW actually report ring times they have achieved?

Closest I have heard of this is when the director of the M division said the new M3 is a few seconds faster than the M5 around the ring.

BMW told the Roundel that they were doing 8:10s. This was in last month's (or the month before) issue.

Bruce

[Garrett]

Originally Posted by lucid

So, you claim that the published SportAuto Supertest times are the best that can be achieved for any car that goes through the test, and that SportAuto optimizes for external variables, and that there can be no variance associated with that "best" time?

Not so. Below is information from the official Koenigsegg site about the Koenigsegg SportAuto Supertest that took place in Oct'05. Read the article and you'll see how conditions were way below ideal, but the test was performed anyway and a Supertest lap time was recorded. So that was the "official" time for the Koenigsegg at that time then, the best it could do? If SuportAuto is such a standard setting authority, why did it conduct the test under less than ideal conditions and record a time?

http://www.koenigsegg.com/news/artic...age=&type=news

By the way, the 7:34 lap time achieved at that test in Oct'05 is on that list of Ring times you referenced earlier in post #93. So, why should I think that the rest of the SportAuto numbers on that list are optimal numbers that can't be improved upon under better weather conditions and with a better driver than Horst von Saurma? (And, how can you claim that Horst von Saurma is better than a driver BMW can pull in from an active racing team who is at his/her peak and has better skills and reflexes and so on?)

BMW might or might not use the SportAuto number in its literature for reasons that I am not aware of. However, that doesn't mean that they can't post a better number than that if they really wanted to.

Dude,

It's not who can post the fastest lap, it about validating the cars actual performance in stock from.

So that a BMW's time CAN be compared to an Audi's or Mercedes..! SportAuto does an great job of this and if they got a 8:03 with their BMW, chances are if you show up with YOUR bmw and and let Horst grip your ride, he'll probably trap about the same lap time.

What more can you ask for? What more do you need?





-Garrett

[devo]

Originally Posted by Garrett

Dude,

It's not who can post the fastest lap, it about validating the cars actual performance in stock from.

So that a BMW's time CAN be compared to an Audi's or Mercedes..! SportAuto does an great job of this and if they got a 8:03 with their BMW, chances are if you show up with YOUR bmw and and let Horst grip your ride, he'll probably trap about the same lap time.

What more can you ask for? What more do you need?




-Garrett

Only, IF, you opted for the Cup tires

[southlight]

Originally Posted by devo

Only, IF, you opted for the Cup tires

Assuming the 8:03 was on Cup tires, what we don't know yet...

Best regards, south

[devo]

Originally Posted by southlight

Assuming the 8:03 was on Cup tires, what we don't know yet...

Best regards, south

Yes, this is true, but I couldn't resist.

[13eastie]

Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon

Tires are easily changed on any car.

If you can afford it!

[lucid]

Originally Posted by Garrett

Dude,

It's not who can post the fastest lap, it about validating the cars actual performance in stock from.

So that a BMW's time CAN be compared to an Audi's or Mercedes..! SportAuto does an great job of this and if they got a 8:03 with their BMW, chances are if you show up with YOUR bmw and and let Horst grip your ride, he'll probably trap about the same lap time.

What more can you ask for? What more do you need?

-Garrett

Setting the best lap time issue aside, the info I posted clearly shows that comparing an Audi SportAuto time recorded on day X to a Mercedes SportAuto time recorded on day Y, even if both cars were "stock" with tires and all, can be misleading due to uncontrolled variables (mainly weather since the driver turns out to be a constant indeed although the guy must be getting old!), which is how this thing all got started. Isn't that point pretty obvious by now? Did you even read my post and the referenced article?

Here, let me help you; sections from that article:

"Even tough the conditions was far from ideal, with temperatures ranging down to 6 C, the Koenigsegg still managed to show class leading performance with a time of 7 minutes and 34 seconds around the Nürburgring Nordschleife, with comparatively cold tires, minimizing the grip level."

"Due to the cold weather, the tires did not reach full working temperature, which is equivalent to a loss of minimum 5 seconds per lap around the ring, compared to a well tempered day, according to the experts."

[southlight]

Originally Posted by lucid

Setting the best lap time issue aside, the info I posted clearly shows that comparing an Audi SportAuto time recorded on day X to a Mercedes SportAuto time recorded on day Y, even if both cars were "stock" with tires and all, can be misleading due to uncontrolled variables, which is how this thing all got started. Isn't that point pretty obvious by now? Did you even read my post and the referenced article?

That's right. But what also can be mentioned is that Sportauto always states air temperature, air pressure and road temperature as measured while doing the test.

Best regards, south

[lucid]

Originally Posted by southlight

That's right. But what also can be mentioned is that Sportauto always states air temperature, air pressure and road temperature they had while doing the test.

Best regards, south

Yep, as they should. My initial point was that the same can be done with tires. I understand there is disagrement regarding tires, but it can still be done so that we can speculate about those kinds of differences all we want on on-line forums while we wait around for the release of a car.

Ultimately, due to such differences (and depending on other things such as if the driver had an argument with his wife that morning or not), I don't think it is meaningful to care too much about differences up to 7-8, maybe even 10, seconds. And I still would very much like to see some "best" possible lap times!

Which brings me a question: would someone care to speculate how many seconds the M3 might end up shaving from its lap time by using CUPs?

[southlight]

Originally Posted by lucid

Yep, as they should. My initial point was that the same can be done with tires. I understand there is disagrement regarding tires, but it can still be done so that we can speculate about those kinds of differences all we want on on-line forums while we wait around for the release of a car.

Ultimately, due to such differences (and depending on other things such as if the driver had an argument with his wife that morning or not), I don't think it is meaningful to care too much about differences up to 7-8, maybe even 10, seconds. And I still would very much like to see some "best" possible lap times!

Which brings me a question: would someone care to speculate how many seconds the M3 might end up shaving from its lap time by using CUPs?

My guess is between 5 and 10 seconds. If BMW's right and the CUP+ tires are way less radical than the CUP used on the CSL, rather the former...

Best regards, south

[JEllis]

This has got to be one of the more frustrating threads

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by lucid

...Which brings me a question: would someone care to speculate how many seconds the M3 might end up shaving from its lap time by using CUPs?

Rule of thumb is a second per minute, compared with "max" or "extreme" performance (TireRack's terms) street tires.

Makes the 8:10 mentioned by BMW compared with the 8:03 rumor pretty interesting, no?

I personally would hope that the 8:03 rumor is correct, and was done on stock rubber, but I doubt it.

A completely stock 8:03 means that the car gets down fairly close to the two icons (911S and Vette Z51) at 7:59, which is heartening.

All this is of little consequence - except for my personal fear that the new car will just be too big and heavy to be a fun ride.

Hope I'm wrong.

Bruce

[lucid]

Originally Posted by southlight

My guess is between 5 and 10 seconds. If BMW's right and the CUP+ tires are way less radical than the CUP used on the CSL, rather the former...

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

Rule of thumb is a second per minute, compared with "max" or "extreme" performance (TireRack's terms) street tires.

I was also pretty much thinking about a 5-10 second interval, so it sounds like there is some convergence here unless someone disagrees with better rationale. So, I'd say if the test is done with CUPs, one can speculate back to the stock configuration by adding 7-8 seconds.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

All this is of little consequence - except for my personal fear that the new car will just be too big and heavy to be a fun ride.

Agreed. That is my main concern as well.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by lucid

I was also pretty much thinking about a 5-10 second interval, so it sounds like there is some convergence here unless someone disagrees with better rationale. So, I'd say if the test is done with CUPs, one can speculate back to the stock configuration by adding 7-8 seconds.

So an M3 in stock configuration (PS2 tires) would achieve about the Ring time the RS4 had with Corsa tires and Ceramic brakes...

Best regards, south

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by southlight

So an M3 in stock configuration would achieve about the Ring time the RS4 had with Corsa tires and Ceramic brakes...

Best regards, south

An M3 in stock configuration including MPS tires (non Cups) would achieve ... (as you stated).