Starter motor short story and replacement

[GirlsGarage]

09 E92 M3 DCT, mileage 137,000 KM

Might not be the best DIY to replace the starter motor but should give an idea..

problem started few months ago when the car rarely doesn't even give an attempt to start in the morning after sleeping overnight!! but the starter clicking noise was present

diagnoses done and no faults where shown!

to start the car, had to jump start it although battery voltage was always 12.2V+ and min required cranking amps were 100% there! but the car starts that way.

day before yesterday the car strongly refused to start! even the clicking noise of the starter motor disappeared

Autologic diagnoses said: STARTER MOTOR NEGATIVE CABLE!

all cables and wires were traced and all looked good.

Strange that such a diagnostic tool doesn't show the exact faulty part

Decided to take the car back and decided to do a starter motor DIY as its the only part that can cause this to happen after all the excessive diagnoses.

I read earlier that transmission must be pulled to change the starter (in Pencilegeek's RD stroker engine build thread @ m3forums dot net) but that didn't sound true to me.
Will only mention main steps:

FIRST OF ALL DISCONNECT THE BATTERY NIGATIVE CABLE

1- remove intake manifold.
2- remove emission control air pump unbolting 3 nuts and disconnecting 2 connector.
3- disconnect all engine harness connectors in the area between the throttle bodies and towards engine front.
4- disconnect connectors for the following ONLY ON THE DRIVER SIDE:
(Fuel injectors, Ignition coils, 2 engine ground wires and cam shaft sensors).
5- unbolt 4 nuts holding the engine harness rail, now you are able to left the harness and just turn it to the Passenger side (pic#2).
6- disconnect and remove fuel tank breather valve and Idle Control valve and T shape hose.
7- now you can see the bloody starter motor. unbolt the nut holding the + cable and alternator cable on the starter motor and remove the negative connector.
3 bolts holding the starter from the back (transmission side), to be unbolted and starter motor is in hand.














Everything is put back together with a new starter and problem solved

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by EssM3

09 E92 M3 DCT, mileage 137,000 KM

Might not be the best DIY to replace the starter motor but should give an idea..

problem started few months ago when the car rarely doesn't even give an attempt to start in the morning after sleeping overnight!! but the starter clicking noise was present

diagnoses done and no faults where shown!

to start the car, had to jump start it although battery voltage was always 12.2V+ and min required cranking amps were 100% there! but the car starts that way.

day before yesterday the car strongly refused to start! even the clicking noise of the starter motor disappeared

Autologic diagnoses said: STARTER MOTOR NEGATIVE CABLE!

all cables and wires were traced and all looked good.

Strange that such a diagnostic tool doesn't show the exact faulty part

Decided to take the car back and decided to do a starter motor DIY as its the only part that can cause this to happen after all the excessive diagnoses.

I read earlier that transmission must be pulled to change the starter (in Pincilegeek's RD stroker engine build thread @ m3forums dot net) but that didn't sound true to me.

Will only mention main steps:

FIRST OF ALL DISCONNECT THE BATTERY NIGATIVE CABLE

1- remove intake manifold.
2- remove emission control air pump unbolting 3 nuts and disconnecting 2 connector.
3- disconnect all engine harness connectors in the area between the throttle bodies and towards engine front.
4- disconnect connectors for the following ONLY ON THE DRIVER SIDE:
(Fuel injectors, Ignition coils, 2 engine ground wires and cam shaft sensors).
5- unbolt 4 nuts holding the engine harness rail, now you are able to left the harness and just turn it to the Passenger side (pic#2).
6- disconnect and remove fuel tank breather valve and Idle Control valve and T shape hose.
7- now you can see the bloody starter motor. unbolt the nut holding the + cable and alternator cable on the starter motor and remove the negative connector.
3 bolts holding the starter from the back (transmission side), to be unbolted and starter motor is in hand.


Attachment 880440

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Attachment 880445

Everything is put back together with a new starter and problem solved

Good DIY, but one thing, 12.2 V is way to low for battery voltage. You must have 12.65 V for your battery to be considered fully charged, 12.2 V is only considered 60% charged. When your battery voltage is low your starter draws more amperage and it will cause it to fail.

Please check your battery again and if the voltage is less than 12.65 V fully charge the battery, let it sit overnight and check it again in the morning. If when you check it the next morning it reads less than 12.6 V I recommend you replace the battery, failing to do so will cause both your alternator and starter to suffer increased load and they will prematurely fail.

[BPMSport]

The majority of M3's are not @ 12.65V resting.

Mine has been at 12.2 or 12.3 for a long time and there is nothing wrong with the car.

With 12.2 you should be able to start the car without issue. Perhaps there is a loose ground or something of that sort?

Glad you got it worked out. You might want to have a battery reset performed. I've also seen the IBS (intelligent battery sensing) cables go bad.

[s65e90]

+1; I see nothing wrong with a voltage reading 12-14; anything below 12 I would start to be concerned but as long as my gauge indicates charging 12.xx is perfectly acceptable.

[Longwong]

The ONLY good thing about having the start/stop feature is that we get a much beefier starter motor! not really related to this exactly but one reason I like the stop start (only if you leave it off I mean which I do. If you use it than you have 10 times the wear as well)

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

The majority of M3's are not @ 12.65V resting.

Mine has been at 12.2 or 12.3 for a long time and there is nothing wrong with the car.

With 12.2 you should be able to start the car without issue. Perhaps there is a loose ground or something of that sort?

Glad you got it worked out. You might want to have a battery reset performed. I've also seen the IBS (intelligent battery sensing) cables go bad.

That is wrong information to give..... 12.2 V is not a good reading for a battery resting. I guess that maybe down in your warm climate 12.2V will start a car fine, but up here when it is - 30 C or colder trying to start a vehicle with a battery with a resting voltage of 12.2 V won't even get the engine to crank!

Mike, a guy that works with software should know how critical battery voltage is to a modern car.

[s65e90]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

That is wrong information to give..... 12.2 V is not a good reading for a battery resting. I guess that maybe down in your warm climate 12.2V will start a car fine, but up here when it is - 30 C or colder trying to start a vehicle with a battery with a resting voltage of 12.2 V won't even get the engine to crank!

Mike, a guy that works with software should know how critical battery voltage is to a modern car.

12-14 volts is w/in totally normal range. As my previous post said, I would only worry if voltage is not cycling or charging while running, but a norma car running accesorries will def see a low 12.xx at times. Under 12-11 yes, I would worry.

[BPMSport]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

That is wrong information to give..... 12.2 V is not a good reading for a battery resting. I guess that maybe down in your warm climate 12.2V will start a car fine, but up here when it is - 30 C or colder trying to start a vehicle with a battery with a resting voltage of 12.2 V won't even get the engine to crank!

Mike, a guy that works with software should know how critical battery voltage is to a modern car.

I think your last comment is rude and unnecessary.

Where did I say that 12.2 is a good reading? I don't think I said that. My car will start with 11.8V. My car has integrated camera systems as well as emulation for the navigation system, not to mention a few other things. This will cause some slight draw until CAS goes to sleep. Does that mean there is anything wrong with the car? No. We have tested reading and writing to the DME all the way down to 9V.

We work on M3's on a daily basis and understand the voltage system in this car. We've measured voltage on tons of M3's and 95% of them Read between 12.2 and 12.5V. This of course varies on the age of the battery, environmental conditions and use of the car. According to your schedule all of the M3's in California are going to have broken starters and alternators. You're making a blanket statement based on your sole experience. Perhaps you should take a look at a larger sample size.

You do realize that the IBS system of the vehicle takes into account environmental variables, and that your experience in Canada with cars not cranking with 12.2 is mutually exclusive. Perhaps in colder climates the IBS system recognizes this and factors this into it's charging program.

I agree with S65 that under 12 is definitely an issue. But I see absolutely no issue with 12.3 and above (depending on the circumstances).

We can agree to disagree as I do not wish to discuss this with you further based on the unwarranted remark you made.

OP: Glad you got your car fixed, don't let others lead you to believe that there is something wrong with it.

[arter]

Gosh, from the location of the starter it appears that BMW expects them never to go bad. I am used to them being is a much more assessable location.

[aussiem3]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

Mike, a guy that works with software should know how critical battery voltage is to a modern car.

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

... We can agree to disagree as I do not wish to discuss this with you further based on the unwarranted remark you made.

OP: Glad you got your car fixed, don't let others lead you to believe that there is something wrong with it.

It's always good to check everything ... end-to-end just to eliminate future recurrence.

We can see where both of you're coming from. Please put this to rest. There is enough negativity and off-the-rail comments. Lets make it a win-win for the OP.

[aussiem3]

That engine bay needs a good steam clean. I won't be able to live with that.

[Cidle]

Originally Posted by aussiem3

That engine bay needs a good steam clean. I won't be able to live with that.

^ that is the first thing I noticed!

OP great Fix, I wouldn't have looked for my starter there.....

[GirlsGarage]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

I think your last comment is rude and unnecessary.

Where did I say that 12.2 is a good reading? I don't think I said that. My car will start with 11.8V. My car has integrated camera systems as well as emulation for the navigation system, not to mention a few other things. This will cause some slight draw until CAS goes to sleep. Does that mean there is anything wrong with the car? No. We have tested reading and writing to the DME all the way down to 9V.

We work on M3's on a daily basis and understand the voltage system in this car. We've measured voltage on tons of M3's and 95% of them Read between 12.2 and 12.5V. This of course varies on the age of the battery, environmental conditions and use of the car. According to your schedule all of the M3's in California are going to have broken starters and alternators. You're making a blanket statement based on your sole experience. Perhaps you should take a look at a larger sample size.

You do realize that the IBS system of the vehicle takes into account environmental variables, and that your experience in Canada with cars not cranking with 12.2 is mutually exclusive. Perhaps in colder climates the IBS system recognizes this and factors this into it's charging program.

I agree with S65 that under 12 is definitely an issue. But I see absolutely no issue with 12.3 and above (depending on the circumstances).

We can agree to disagree as I do not wish to discuss this with you further based on the unwarranted remark you made.

OP: Glad you got your car fixed, don't let others lead you to believe that there is something wrong with it.

Thanks Mike for the kind words, your inputs been always helpful on this forum.

my car has no accessories over stock. Ess Supercharger and P3 Gauge.

BTW, I used a Minicooper battery for like 3 months or so, could this be a reason for that failure? Alternator also failed 2 months ago. (note: Problem started before the battery swap)

I am now back to the stock battery 90AH

[GirlsGarage]

Originally Posted by aussiem3

That engine bay needs a good steam clean. I won't be able to live with that.

lol.. never washed that engine.. you know it can be a money wash on such an engine

I usually wipe the visible area of it.

[GirlsGarage]

Originally Posted by arter

Gosh, from the location of the starter it appears that BMW expects them never to go bad. I am used to them being is a much more assessable location.

agree

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

I think your last comment is rude and unnecessary.

Where did I say that 12.2 is a good reading? I don't think I said that. My car will start with 11.8V. My car has integrated camera systems as well as emulation for the navigation system, not to mention a few other things. This will cause some slight draw until CAS goes to sleep. Does that mean there is anything wrong with the car? No. We have tested reading and writing to the DME all the way down to 9V.

We work on M3's on a daily basis and understand the voltage system in this car. We've measured voltage on tons of M3's and 95% of them Read between 12.2 and 12.5V. This of course varies on the age of the battery, environmental conditions and use of the car. According to your schedule all of the M3's in California are going to have broken starters and alternators. You're making a blanket statement based on your sole experience. Perhaps you should take a look at a larger sample size.

You do realize that the IBS system of the vehicle takes into account environmental variables, and that your experience in Canada with cars not cranking with 12.2 is mutually exclusive. Perhaps in colder climates the IBS system recognizes this and factors this into it's charging program.

I agree with S65 that under 12 is definitely an issue. But I see absolutely no issue with 12.3 and above (depending on the circumstances).

We can agree to disagree as I do not wish to discuss this with you further based on the unwarranted remark you made.

OP: Glad you got your car fixed, don't let others lead you to believe that there is something wrong with it.

Mike, I meant no ill will with my comment, I was just offering some information and you basically said that I was giving wrong information...... I didn't get offended though as you obviously did....... I apologize as that was not my intent!

Battery/charging/starting system tests are standard and not manufacturer specific. the 12.65 V resting voltage is a standard number for a battery that has been fully charged and left to stabilize. A battery being able to maintain 9.6 V after it is loaded to 1/2 it's CCA rating for 15 seconds (at 21 C or 70 F) is another standard test.

So maybe the M3 has lots of parasitic losses, I am not sure as I have never had an issue with my battery being discharged while being parked, but I do recommend that the OP has his battery fully charged and load tested to verify it is good, then , all connections/cables need to be tested (0.2V is the max voltage drop allowed on both the positive and negative side of the charging system. The positive side is tested from the alternator to the battery, and the negative side is tested from the battery to the end of the ground lead on the negative side)......... He obviously has/had issues in the system since and alternator and starter has already been replaced. Maybe the smaller Mini Cooper battery had something to do with the issues due to inadequate capacity and the IBS system being thrown a loop with a smaller than standard battery

My ultimate goal is to ensure the OP don't spend any more time and money replacing components due to a simple issue.

[IMG]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

Battery/charging/starting system tests are standard and not manufacturer specific. the 12.65 V resting voltage is a standard number for a battery that has been fully charged and left to stabilize. A battery being able to maintain 9.6 V after it is loaded to 1/2 it's CCA rating for 15 seconds (at 21 C or 70 F) is another standard test.

So maybe the M3 has lots of parasitic losses, I am not sure as I have never had an issue with my battery being discharged while being parked, but I do recommend that the OP has his battery fully charged and load tested to verify it is good, then , all connections/cables need to be tested (0.2V is the max voltage drop allowed on both the positive and negative side of the charging system. The positive side is tested from the alternator to the battery, and the negative side is tested from the battery to the end of the ground lead on the negative side)......... He obviously has/had issues in the system since and alternator and starter has already been replaced. Maybe the smaller Mini Cooper battery had something to do with the issues due to inadequate capacity and the IBS system being thrown a loop with a smaller than standard battery

My ultimate goal is to ensure the OP don't spend any more time and money replacing components due to a simple issue.

+1 Sir

[GirlsGarage]

Thanks for the info, when alternator failed, behaviours were totaly different ofcourse as many of you know, the car used to start but ofcourse there was no charging so the car dies as soon as the battery does.

When the starter failed, the car didnt want to crank even when trying to jump start it although it used to crank with that method before.

Before replacing the starter i swaped the mini battery with the oe 90AH battery (registered) +jump, but there was no chance of cranking (not even clicking).

My doubt on the mini battery is the load put on the alternator and/ or starter due to less CCA!

[anom3]

So I pretty much just followed this DIY today.

Everything stated is true.

A few points while its fresh in my head:

A) When reinstalling the secondary air pump, try and connect the large power cable before bolting it in. Also when reinstalling it place it where it belongs with the rear hose disconnected, but in place. Good luck getting it back in there with the hose connected.

B) When disconnecting the negative leads and injectors from the drivers side things go alot easier if you remove the oil connector from the top of the valve cover first.

C) The most difficult part in all of this is getting to the bolts at the back holding the starter in place. Took me a good 45 minutes to take them out. About 30 to put them back in. I am a novice though.

D) Double check and tripple check all your connections. My cyl. 7 coil was not plugged all the way in and I got a limp mode. Have INPA so it wasnt too hard to disgnose it and sure enough, it had not "clicked" yet.

Other then that its all stright forward but involves working within a lot of tight spaces.