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10-30-2008, 09:53 PM | #89 | |||
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As far as any other comparisons with the GT-R, dynoed or not, I simply say all bets are off. We are NOT talking about the GT-R tested by Motortrend, we are talking about the GT-R used to get the 7:29, and I think those cars are quite different. That is a big part of my point. Here is what I can offer though in this regard. If I was a betting man I'd be willing to place a very large wager that the GT-R that dynoed at 406 whp COULD NOT clock a 7:29, no way. |
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10-31-2008, 05:28 AM | #90 |
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There has been something that has bugged me since it was first stated on this forum, the new 997 Carrera S ring time of 7:50 in the hands of Horst, that is a full 15 seconds inside it's previous time Sport Auto got for a 997 Mk1 and the only real change is the gearbox and a slight increase in power which is slightly offset by being heavier than before.
Surely the 997S is as big a jump in faith as the GTR's time. P.S. Please forget the straight argument on the GTR for a minute and solely take the two laps in entirity, the one of the GTR and the 997 CarreraS with PDK. |
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10-31-2008, 02:37 PM | #91 | |
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As a reminder the 7:29 GT-R is 3.4 standard deviations better than the model. I know you don't fully appreciate the huge significance of this number, but again it is very loosely akin, in a statistical sense, of flipping 19 heads in a row (I realize I said 10 in a row last time but that was a really rough guess, this time I actually did the calculation....). |
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10-31-2008, 04:57 PM | #92 | |
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Thanks for posting the data and instead of re-writing the whole thing I just copied the reply I PMed you with some minor additions.
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10-31-2008, 07:32 PM | #93 | |||||
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The percentage likleihood for a 2 sigma vs. 3 sigma event is 0.5% vs. 0.003% (single side of the probability function, counting only such over achievers, not the equally unlikely under achievers). Two full orders of magnitude less likely. So about ten times, and then ten times again on top of that! Hope that also helps put "sigma" in perspective. |
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11-01-2008, 04:36 PM | #94 | |||||
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As I said in my PM replies, the 530 vs 550hp isn't really a big issue to me. I always said there is enough evidence out there to say there are examples putting out close to either of the two figures to conclude that the ring car was one of those examples. The only thing I can be sure of and neither can anyone else outside of the test team is whether the suspension was stock or not.
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11-02-2008, 12:13 PM | #95 | |
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I also looked at the lightning lap data. Too bad they didn't have the ZR1 in there, and that you had to use the ACR numbers to estimate the GTR's exit speed. But, knowing that the ZR1 exited the Ring corner at 109 mph, 107 seems like a reasonable estimate for the GTR since the lightning lap data show 113 for the ACR and 107 for the GTR. However, it's hard to know what the variation on those data are and all that, but still better than no basis for the estimate.
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11-02-2008, 02:54 PM | #96 | ||||
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By the way, I did continue the simulations all the way to 174 mph (well past the 1/4 mi). It is just that CarTest in its standard report template provides much more tabular data for the 1/4 mi run. The rest comes from graphs. If there are any particular figures you want from these sims I can let you know what they are. Quote:
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11-02-2008, 02:57 PM | #97 | ||
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11-02-2008, 03:48 PM | #98 | ||||
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I doubt if it will be able to go much quicker, even with the changes Nissan will make for the V-Spec and maybe the same is true of the ZR1 in it's current form, maybe with a wing and splitter to create some decent downforce but as it is it may have shown it's trump card with this 7:22. The one which really should have done better is the Viper ACR and I expect it to come back with another magical lap. On a final note, if you are still wondering about the GTR's hardware not being that almighty think for one second just how much weight that thing is throwing around, be it under braking or in a corner or changing direct. Compared to the others it's a miracle it can do what it does. Last edited by footie; 11-02-2008 at 05:16 PM.. |
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11-02-2008, 04:02 PM | #99 |
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Swamp, did you share your simulation results with the folks on 6speed? Appearently, the guy who started that thread you referenced has been saying the same thing since 9/30, but he doesn't have the data and analysis to back it up very clearly.
Post 52 below: http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...heating-4.html I figured he wasn't you as I can't see you calling yourself "heavychevy".
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11-02-2008, 11:28 PM | #100 | |
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11-02-2008, 11:56 PM | #101 | |||
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Apparently only for some and more so for those making turbo charged sports cars. M vehicles perform quite consistently, track and strip in accordance with stated power and weight. Many others do as well. I would call it select manufacturers and models rather than an indictment on "big business".
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Do recall many of the various testers complaining about a couple significant handling flaws in the GT-R as well as a big ride quality problem. Just pointing this out to reinforce the idea that it aint perfect and aint a UFO. |
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11-03-2008, 05:32 AM | #102 | ||
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One thing I did notice on regression figures was that the car which produced the next highest regression figures after the GTR was another turbo awd car, the Audi S3. In fact Audi are among the most consistent of all brand to stay close to the expected times though usually post slightly better than expected. On the other hand BMW, especially their more powerful models do decidedly worse, whether it's rwd being the problem which I doubt because of all the other similar example which don't suffer the same. No I reckon it might be their choice of sticking close to the 50/50 balance, it might only work right up to a certain power output and after this the balance may need to be shifted to more weight over the driven wheels. Sorry for getting off topic with this. On the ZR1 vs GTR discussion, I must admit I looked at the graph but felt it was a waste of time, it's too inaccurate to get any decent meaning out of. Quote:
If it's just r-compound rubber like what most are running like the RS4, M3 and M6 then I don't agree that r-compound rubber can make such a difference and as we have discussed this before with no agreement there is little point reopening that avenue. |
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11-03-2008, 01:46 PM | #103 | ||||
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Further research tell us they are Proxes R888, which according to Toyo is a D.O.T. approved competition tire. These are one step above a Michelin Pilot Sport Cup+, perhaps more on par with the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup. Last edited by swamp2; 11-03-2008 at 02:50 PM.. |
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11-03-2008, 05:00 PM | #104 | |||
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BTW the tyres used on an S3 are no better than Pilot Sport 2 but I actually believe they aren't even that good. Maybe the system has it's flaws that can't figure all cars in the same way and might let the odd S3 and GTR through the net. Quote:
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11-03-2008, 05:15 PM | #106 |
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And this comment from the man who has posted here almost 12000 times.
How it cooking hairy palms. (j/k) |
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11-03-2008, 05:25 PM | #108 |
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[QUOTE=footie;3581126]I bow to your better judgement on this. I honestly thought N/A engines had less variations in temperature and altitude but clearly I must be wrong in this opinion.
QUOTE]
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11-03-2008, 05:27 PM | #109 |
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Modern day turbos can adjust for far more variables than a traditional N/A engine. The ECU can raise/lower boost as needed for ideal combustion and power under varying air pressure changes. Go race a 335i at 5000 ft and then again at sea level.
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11-03-2008, 05:37 PM | #110 | |
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They do this by dialing into an absolute pressure maximum, rather than a boost maximum. If a given car has a boost limit of 10.3 psi at sea level (thereby giving 25 psi absolute), it will typically bump the boost to 13 psi if you are at 12 psi ambient due to altitude or if you're in the funnel of a tornado - when admittedly max boost may not be the thing foremost in your mind. Bruce * The reason it's obvious is that, if you lose 3psi due to altitude in a max boost system (set at 10.3 for 25 total at sea level), you're losing proportionally less than if you started at 14.7 psi and lost 3. |
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