Chicago's First Snow

[ILLCOMM]

Originally Posted by signes

That is an uninformed opinion. I drove an E46 M3 vert with snows, got me through 4 winters in Colorado as my only car which was driven regardless of the conditions. Including the record Christmas blizzard (below)...



Just need to be sensible and have realistic expectations. Most emergency vehicles are rear wheel drive (and have been forever with the exception of police/fire SUVs) and they do fine. You will see LTDs and Crown Vics patrolling up and down the mountain passes in Colorado in all conditions.

I am informed. I ran a 330i with Blizzack WS-50's (the more hardcore snow tire) and driving it in any wintry precipitation was an absolute nightmare.

I would strongly advise against planning on running a M3 in wintry conditions.

[Reedomn]

Totally disagree...I have driven 4 different M3's in Minnesota winters with various snow tire set-ups and have had 0 problems...Great and fun car to drive in any condition!!

[finite]

Wow! Talk about a split decision. Seems like half are for and half against driving in the snow

Luckily, I have a company car to use and a DD when the roads are really bad. Maybe you guys could help me out...I can't find a 19" tire for the winter. Any suggestions?

[signes]

Originally Posted by ILLCOMM

I am informed. I ran a 330i with Blizzack WS-50's (the more hardcore snow tire) and driving it in any wintry precipitation was an absolute nightmare.

I would strongly advise against planning on running a M3 in wintry conditions.

The WS-50 is a good tire so clearly there is some operator error... Kidding (a bit), but seriously there have to be literally millions of rear wheel drive cars that get along just fine in winter conditions - how do you explain that? Read any of the posts in the wheel forum about snows and people using their E9x all year round, its very common and they work well.

[signes]

Originally Posted by finite

Wow! Talk about a split decision. Seems like half are for and half against driving in the snow

Luckily, I have a company car to use and a DD when the roads are really bad. Maybe you guys could help me out...I can't find a 19" tire for the winter. Any suggestions?

IT really isn't a split decision, the posts above showing surprise were about the poster driving in snow in his summer tires, that is a recipe for disaster. The tires turn hard enough to be plastic, have no grip whatsoever and certainly don't have suitable tread to deal with snow.

As for your 19s, there are several options. You can go to tirerack.com and put in your year, make and model, then click on Winter and it will give you options in your standard tire size. If you are running a different size, you can search by that as well.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by ILLCOMM

I would strongly advise against planning on running a M3 in wintry conditions.

That is fair advice. I disagree with it, but it is certainly fair.

As a counter-point, I will strongly advise against buying a great luxury automobile and not driving it for a few months of the year unless you are absolutely certain your climate or region simply will not allow you to get from point A to B reliably.

[Big Windy]

Originally Posted by ILLCOMM

I am informed. I ran a 330i with Blizzack WS-50's (the more hardcore snow tire) and driving it in any wintry precipitation was an absolute nightmare.

I would strongly advise against planning on running a M3 in wintry conditions.

A 330i is different from an M3, but still I don't see why you'd advise against it. I did it with a 335i with no problems, and am now doing it with my M3 and have had no problems. BMWs with the proper tire setup are very snow capable cars, IMO.

[urbo73]

Originally Posted by ILLCOMM

I am informed. I ran a 330i with Blizzack WS-50's (the more hardcore snow tire) and driving it in any wintry precipitation was an absolute nightmare.

I would strongly advise against planning on running a M3 in wintry conditions.

Someone needs driving lessons I think....

[urbo73]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

We've had a few snow showers here now, and while I do plan to put my winter tires on asap (they just arrived today), I've taken the M3 out on three different occassions in the snow already. Keep in mind this is less than an inch of snow on the road, and one time it was really more of a slush with rain/snow mix. In fact, today it was just a dusting of snow. Anyway, I am pretty surprised at how well the stock summer tires perform. I slid around a little bit, but really only if I tried to. Otherwise the car feels very sure footed even at speed. This is a big contrast to how the E46 performed the one time I drove in snow with summer tires - it was impossible to control. I am not sure why the summer tires seem to be ok in the cold and snow, possibly it could be because they are so new with very low mileage. I am sure that the car would be basically immobile with deeper snow on the road though. Anyway, I am looking forward to get the snows on and trying it out. Driving in the snow can be pretty fun.

Not sure how you were driving with the stock PS2s, but for sure you got lucky. It has nothing to do with them being low mileage and everything to do with them not heating up and gripping well (or at all) in temperatures below 40 degrees - snow or dry. It's simply a hard compound that will get you in trouble, no matter how careful you think you are. Like I said, you got lucky. It can happen that next time they'll jump out from under you. And you cannot get any heat into them unless you drive like a maniac and brake hard all over the place, which is impossible (or very stupid and dangerous) on the street. The PS2s are hard compound summer tires. In cold weather - forget snow, they will not heat up and grip well. This is a fact. If someone drives for a bit and it feels OK, consider yourself lucky. Not worth the risk.

[SlammedR8]

Originally Posted by urbo73

Someone needs driving lessons I think....

+1000

100%....come on man. Winter tires and your car should drive amazing in snowy conditions. I can't believe this guy says an M3 shouldn't be driven in snowy conditions (even with a winter tire setup)

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by urbo73

Not sure how you were driving with the stock PS2s, but for sure you got lucky. It has nothing to do with them being low mileage and everything to do with them not heating up and gripping well (or at all) in temperatures below 40 degrees - snow or dry. It's simply a hard compound that will get you in trouble, no matter how careful you think you are. Like I said, you got lucky. It can happen that next time they'll jump out from under you. And you cannot get any heat into them unless you drive like a maniac and brake hard all over the place, which is impossible (or very stupid and dangerous) on the street. The PS2s are hard compound summer tires. In cold weather - forget snow, they will not heat up and grip well. This is a fact. If someone drives for a bit and it feels OK, consider yourself lucky. Not worth the risk.

Well, I appreciate your opinion of course. Also I am completely aware of why summer compound tires are not desirable for cold weather. However, thank you for reminding the forum of these facts.

Nevertheless I can tell you for absolute certain that the tires grip just fine at 32 degrees. By just fine, I do not mean that I would elect to drive on them all winter. I'd never do that. What I mean is that the car is not unmanageable or even unstable as long as you are not driving unsafely for the conditions. This is especially true in cold, dry conditions which you also did stress above. Here is something to consider: Right now I can go into any dealership in the country, including in colder regions and test drive any car. Some of these cars will have snow tires or all season tires on them. But many will not. Now, if the danger is really as immediate and severe as you suggest then we will surely be able to find cases of people getting into accidents doing this very thing. In fact, we should be able to merely walk into said dealerships and threaten them with negligence and legal action if they do not install suitable tires on all test-driveable cars immediately.

Having said that, again, I'll reiterate, I have snow tires, and I plan to install them asap. I also would never, ever recommend someone using summer tires for winter driving. You will probably eventually wreck the car if you do. But, if, for example, someone picks up their new M3 today in Michigan and drives it hom with the stock tires on it, will they face immediate danger and have to rely sole on luck to make it home safely? No, I simply do not agree that that is the case. It simply does not make sense to suggest the situation is nearly that dire.

[Bluedoor2002]

While never driving a M3 during the winter (but will next week when mine shows up), I have had a G35 for the last three years which I have driven successfully year-round. Returning to a rear-wheel drive from several previous front-wheel drive, I was pleased to return to the over-steer. Having your rear wheels slip in the snow is just fun but having your front wheels slip is frightening. The only down-side to my G35, and I imagine the M3 won't be any better, is that the traction control is almost useless in the snow. Spinning your tires in the snow is just part of winter driving. My G35 would stall itself trying to stop the spin.

Before my G35, I hadn't invested in snow tires very consistently and I've become a firm believer. Near NYC, snow isn't the biggest issue for me but I've learned to be very cautious of the summer-tires in the cold. It is really easy to suddenly loose grip in temperatures below 30 degrees. I was lazy this year and didn't switch over to the winter tires soon enough and had lots of wheel slip just because of the cold.

[SlammedR8]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Well, I appreciate your opinion of course. Also I am completely aware of why summer compound tires are not desirable for cold weather. However, thank you for reminding the forum of these facts.

Nevertheless I can tell you for absolute certain that the tires grip just fine at 32 degrees. By just fine, I do not mean that I would elect to drive on them all winter. I'd never do that. What I mean is that the car is not unmanageable or even unstable as long as you are not driving unsafely for the conditions. This is especially true in cold, dry conditions which you also did stress above. Here is something to consider: Right now I can go into any dealership in the country, including in colder regions and test drive any car. Some of these cars will have snow tires or all season tires on them. But many will not. Now, if the danger is really as immediate and severe as you suggest then we will surely be able to find cases of people getting into accidents doing this very thing. In fact, we should be able to merely walk into said dealerships and threaten them with negligence and legal action if they do not install suitable tires on all test-driveable cars immediately.

Having said that, again, I'll reiterate, I have snow tires, and I plan to install them asap. I also would never, ever recommend someone using summer tires for winter driving. You will probably eventually wreck the car if you do. But, if, for example, someone picks up their new M3 today in Michigan and drives it hom with the stock tires on it, will they face immediate danger and have to rely sole on luck to make it home safely? No, I simply do not agree that that is the case. It simply does not make sense to suggest the situation is nearly that dire.

You are right about that...assuming there is snow on the road and it is dry out, and only cold temperature.

BUT, if there is even an inch or half an inch of snow on the ground...they will in fact face immediate danger and have to rely solely on luck to make it home safely!

[SlammedR8]

Originally Posted by Bluedoor2002

While never driving a M3 during the winter (but will next week when mine shows up), I have had a G35 for the last three years which I have driven successfully year-round. Returning to a rear-wheel drive from several previous front-wheel drive, I was pleased to return to the over-steer. Having your rear wheels slip in the snow is just fun but having your front wheels slip is frightening. The only down-side to my G35, and I imagine the M3 won't be any better, is that the traction control is almost useless in the snow. Spinning your tires in the snow is just part of winter driving. My G35 would stall itself trying to stop the spin.

Oh nooo..noooo!! My brother in law has a G35 on winters and its a whole different ball game then my M3. The traction control technology is completely different and there is really no comparision. When I first drove my M3 in the snow last week, (with traction on) i couldn't even send the back end of the car out. it wouldn't let it go...and it defintely did not stall itself while trying to stop the spin.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by slammedm3

You are right about that...assuming there is snow on the road and it is dry out, and only cold temperature.

BUT, if there is even an inch or half an inch of snow on the ground...they will in fact face immediate danger and have to rely solely on luck to make it home safely!

Well, since the primary benefit of snow tires is the compound and not the tread (though the tread certainly does help, yes), it is hard to believe that the addition of snow could tip things so drastically toward the "danger zone".

I'd respectfully like to close this part of the discussion though, since I don't want there to be any remote chance that my words could be misconstrued as advocating driving in the winter with summer tires on. Again, my message: Get winter tires, people. I use them. They are worth it. They are, in fact, necessity.

Originally Posted by slammedm3

Oh nooo..noooo!! My brother in law has a G35 on winters and its a whole different ball game then my M3. The traction control technology is completely different and there is really no comparision. When I first drove my M3 in the snow last week, (with traction on) i couldn't even send the back end of the car out. it wouldn't let it go...and it defintely did not stall itself while trying to stop the spin.

I was just going to reply to his post too. Stall? That's insane, and very dangerous. No BMW I've ever driven behaves like that. Power is cut gently (unless you deliberately try to lose control), and brakes are applied smoothly. The traction control works remarkably well in fact. The only thing I wish the M3 had was a DTC mode like the 335i. I guess MDM would work too, but its not really the same. Of course, I don't have MDM so its all or nothing for me. Oh well, I managed like that in the E46, so it should be very similar.

[Bluedoor2002]

My G35 would stall itself rather than let any wheel slip. The first time driving in any real snow (4"+) with the G35, I stalled trying to turn into a parking lot with slushy build up. I had no problem once I turned off the traction control. I'm not talking about a wild wheel spin either..just a moderate spin which I've always considered normal snow driving.

I'm excited to see how the M3 traction control works differently. The G35 was my first traction controlled car and I had hoped the technology was better in the snow. Instead, I found it was just a good nanny to keep me from slipping in rain or gravel and eliminating any real over-steer. By the way, how does the DCT react in the snow?

[Gearhead999s]

Well I feel the need to post this video in this thread as it is rant about people not using snow tires!

http://www.cbc.ca/mercerreport/video...ject=939838587

[mkoesel]

^^^

The nice lady insists that "this content is currently unavailable".

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

^^^

The nice lady insists that "this content is currently unavailable".

Thats funny as it works for me,maybe it blocks other countries other than Canada.

[Gearhead999s]

Here it is on You-Tube

[signes]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Well, since the primary benefit of snow tires is the compound and not the tread (though the tread certainly does help, yes), it is hard to believe that the addition of snow could tip things so drastically toward the "danger zone".

In just cold weather with dry roads, yes the compound is the primary benefit but the tread pattern on a performance summer tire is drastically different from a snow tire. All those more pronounced tread blocks, sipes and grooves on snows are meant to grip and release snow and slush, things that just won't work on summer treads.

Blizzak LM-25 tread


PS2 tread


I know you aren't advocating driving on summers in the winter - your comment about compound is valid (not imminent danger / sliding around too much on dry roads). If I knew it would never snow here and just only be cold, I probably wouldn't bother with winter tires. However, you can't get heat in to the tires in very cold conditions, so in emergency situations the handling and braking performance would suffer. Since I live and drive in a cold snowy climate and can only have one car, the M3 on snows is a great year round car. It is a compromise, but I would rather the compromise be for the 10-15 snow days we have versus the other 350 days where rear wheel drive is the most fun!

[urbo73]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Well, I appreciate your opinion of course. Also I am completely aware of why summer compound tires are not desirable for cold weather. However, thank you for reminding the forum of these facts.

Nevertheless I can tell you for absolute certain that the tires grip just fine at 32 degrees. By just fine, I do not mean that I would elect to drive on them all winter. I'd never do that. What I mean is that the car is not unmanageable or even unstable as long as you are not driving unsafely for the conditions. This is especially true in cold, dry conditions which you also did stress above. Here is something to consider: Right now I can go into any dealership in the country, including in colder regions and test drive any car. Some of these cars will have snow tires or all season tires on them. But many will not. Now, if the danger is really as immediate and severe as you suggest then we will surely be able to find cases of people getting into accidents doing this very thing. In fact, we should be able to merely walk into said dealerships and threaten them with negligence and legal action if they do not install suitable tires on all test-driveable cars immediately.

Having said that, again, I'll reiterate, I have snow tires, and I plan to install them asap. I also would never, ever recommend someone using summer tires for winter driving. You will probably eventually wreck the car if you do. But, if, for example, someone picks up their new M3 today in Michigan and drives it hom with the stock tires on it, will they face immediate danger and have to rely sole on luck to make it home safely? No, I simply do not agree that that is the case. It simply does not make sense to suggest the situation is nearly that dire.

Look, I understand you aren't advocating using summer tires in the winter. I was just surprised, since in my experience, the PS2s (on my Cayman S before and on my M3 until I swapped for winter 3 weeks ago), simply do NOT heat up and grip. Do they not grip at all? No, there is SOME grip of course. How much slip do they allow? Quite a bit, but you don't want that. That's why I said you can get lucky. Also I always check my tire pressures, and one CAN get away with lower pressures in the dry (but cold). And re. dealer test drives, they are not responsible for your driving. You'd be hard pressed to win any lawsuits there...Plus their tire pressures are all over the place on their cars, and as I said, lower pressures will help you out but of course do damage long term to the tires. But they will allow more grip believe it or not because the tire is flexing where at normal pressure it won't because of the hard compound.

But if you truly think you can drive in the dry at 30 or 32 degrees on PS2s just fine, you are rolling the dice. Try some hard lefts or rights from a stand and see what happens. At the recommended tire pressure. Nothing extreme. The tires just "judder" under the car. Simple physics. Never mind at high speeds, etc. You'd be in trouble VERY fast with PS2s in the dry at 32 degrees. Believe me..