track with lip

[M3 Number 86]

So looking to get a lip something like mode carbon v1 or gts lip.

Friends have apr aero kits but also a lip to cover holes it would cause by just installing the apr front.

Are there any drawbacks by just going with lip first?

Do these types of lips provide any additional downforce even if minimal?

Thanks in advance.

Will I need a matching rear wing as well even with just a lip?

[radiantm3]

Originally Posted by socal TW

So looking to get a lip something like mode carbon v1 or gts lip.

Friends have apr aero kits but also a lip to cover holes it would cause by just installing the apr front.

Are there any drawbacks by just going with lip first?

Do these types of lips provide any additional downforce even if minimal?

Thanks in advance.

Will I need a matching rear wing as well even with just a lip?

Lips don't do anything worth noting as far as downforce goes. It's pretty much just for show.

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by radiantm3

Lips don't do anything worth noting as far as downforce goes. It's pretty much just for show.

Good. Was wondering if it messed up performance haha.

[MFKN3]

Try telling the time attack guys that. Not sure I agree.

Front aero and rear wing are proven and usually complement each other

[knolow]

Not trying to get into a battle here, but lips don't matter? Of course they do. Obviously smaller "cosmetic" lips don't matter or minutely affect aero but yes lips and wings (spoilers) matter. Front lips counter under steer as they force the front end of the car down and rear wings counter over steer as they force the rear of the car down. Both pieces are required for the right balance on the track.

[Longboarder]

A structurally rigid front lip bolted to the chassis and developed in connection with a rear wing with angles optimized for the particular car AND each track would work very nicely.

[s14_kev]

Lips like the Mode Carbon V1 just tape and screw in to the bumper. I'd expect negligible downforce from that even at track speeds. I agree that these types of lips are just for show.

OEM lips like the GTS lip with the correct brackets in place actually attach to the chassis would make a much bigger impact IMO as far as downforce goes and would likely need a wing to match.

[M3 Number 86]

ok so lip like a stick on v1 ( and to create a flat bottom surface) is all good for now.

when buying font splitter buy matching rear wing at the same time.

thanks!

[surlynkid]

My car does not even weigh the 51/49 like oem literature says. I am 55 front and 45 rear. I don't need any front aero. I need the rear planted. A friend felt the same way. He went with large apr wing and no splitter. Car was much more balanced with rear more planted.

[radiantm3]

Originally Posted by MFKN3

Try telling the time attack guys that. Not sure I agree.

Front aero and rear wing are proven and usually complement each other

We are talking about the cheaply made lips that 99% of the people on m3post buy for looks, not splitters tested for race applications.

[xchosun1x]

realistically front aero needs to be giving down force to the chassis..not just the front bumper.

Although a front lip can provide down force, a lip/splitter combo with chassis mounted bracing would be ideal.

[radiantm3]

Originally Posted by kevin///mlee

Lips like the Mode Carbon V1 just tape and screw in to the bumper. I'd expect negligible downforce from that even at track speeds. I agree that these types of lips are just for show.

OEM lips like the GTS lip with the correct brackets in place actually attach to the chassis would make a much bigger impact IMO as far as downforce goes and would likely need a wing to match.

The GTS splitter and wing make less of an impact than people think. You need to be going really fast through a corner for them to make a marginal difference that probably makes a .001 second difference in a lap time if that. I'd say those are really for show as well. Anyone who really wants downforce is going to get a splitter and wing that looks ridiculous on a street car.

[Melchior]

Lips, even typical "show" lips, sit lower to the ground which reduces the amount of air flowing underneath the car. This results in lower pressure under the car, and reduced drag because the air under the car doesn't have to flow around all the suspension/exhaust/diff components. Depending on how low the lip is (height from the ground), this can produce significant downforce. I went from wing/no lip ---> wing/oem lip on my RX7 race car and had to add wing to balance the car back out. I then went from wing/oem lip with custom splitter and hand to add even more wing to balance the car out. The splitter was worth more front grip, but the OEM lip did make a decent difference.

Lip and splitter mounting isn't as critical as most people think on low downforce setups. The overall donwforce isn't achieved through the lip or short splitter surface, but actually primarily from the underside of the car. That's a lot of sq-ft to distribute the pressure, and only a very small amount on the actual lip itself. I ran a Mode Carbon V2 setup on my M3 and had to dial in a fair amount of wing to get the car balanced. The lip/splitter combo was only bumper mounted. I've even run a 1/4" plywood splitter which was bumper mounted and it still produced a fair amount of front grip, and I don't think either of these arrangements would have gained much from chassis mounting.

If the splitter goes back (centerl ine of front axle) further, extends further forward, and is designed to produce higher downforce, then it should be mounted to the chassis. The splitter should also be rigid to prevent deflection at speed. Splitters extending further back are more critical because the pressure will be distributed across the spilltter, as opposed to the underside of the car.

[M3 Number 86]

I plan on getting an APR splitter but friends have said get a lip to make the bottom flat first and then add on the splitter.

Was wondering in the interim, if it would have any effect, or if I had to gather the parts then put them all on at once.

[Triple M]

It was strange how many thought the GTS lip/Wing did nothing for our car until the wind tunnel data as well as pictures were posted on here years back. Truth of the matter is, other than HPDE and schools, many of us rarely get the opportunity to invest the amount of test n tune time that the real attack guys or full blown racers due, enough to be able to appreciate the difference every component of car makes in lap times. I smiled when I saw this article in motor trend a few months back.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/..._track_retest/

Smallest amount of aero is considered significant enough to not be allowed in certain racing class. Reading up on tires, aero, and suspension this past year as been an eye opener when it comes to grip which is what it's all about at the end of the day. Enter mechanical vs aerodynamic drip, and it gets interesting. I would swap all the aero in the world for the suspension setup (blade sway bar...etc) that the GS E92 M3 were running.
I truly believe once the car is near what most would consider its limit e.g 1:57 at BW CW#13, 1:34 big willow (ballpark), I think aero really starts to make a difference for those extra 1, 2, or 3 seconds.

The lip should definitely not be the on the top 3 list of mods to start with. I guess it depends on OP skill level and what he's trying to achieve with the lip, look or that extra few second to better what can already be considered a very fast lap time.

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by Triple M

It was strange how many thought the GTS lip/Wing did nothing for our car until the wind tunnel data as well as pictures were posted on here years back. Truth of the matter is, other than HPDE and schools, many of us rarely get the opportunity to invest the amount of test n tune time that the real attack guys or full blown racers due, enough to be able to appreciate the difference every component of car makes in lap times. I smiled when I saw this article in motor trend a few months back.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/..._track_retest/

Smallest amount of aero is considered significant enough to not be allowed in certain racing class. Reading up on tires, aero, and suspension this past year as been an eye opener when it comes to grip which is what it's all about at the end of the day. Enter mechanical vs aerodynamic drip, and it gets interesting. I would swap all the aero in the world for the suspension setup (blade sway bar...etc) that the GS E92 M3 were running.
I truly believe once the car is near what most would consider its limit e.g 1:57 at BW CW#13, 1:34 big willow (ballpark), I think aero really starts to make a difference for those extra 1, 2, or 3 seconds.

The lip should definitely not be the on the top 3 list of mods to start with. I guess it depends on OP skill level and what he's trying to achieve with the lip, look or that extra few second to better what can already be considered a very fast lap time.

Good post and thanks.

Is yours a real gts lip? Good time at acs and podium finish!

I got 2nd in B3 with 1:54 for the day and current setup is kw cs and brake pads with RS3.

Getting a little bored with the way my car looks and wanted to put a lip on it for looks as long as it didn't affect performance negatively at the track as well as finding one where it will work with a splitter properly in the future if I decided to go that route.

Also this moonroof makes the car pretty top heavy because in all my track photos my car is leaning over so much compared to others and thinking about just removing it and getting a cf cover made. Why full cf roof conversion so $$$$?

Next thing on my list is perhaps stiffer springs all around and going to try some nt01.

[elim11]

Originally Posted by socal TW

Good post and thanks.

Is yours a real gts lip? Good time at acs and podium finish!

I got 2nd in B3 with 1:54 for the day and current setup is kw cs and brake pads with RS3.

Getting a little bored with the way my car looks and wanted to put a lip on it for looks as long as it didn't affect performance negatively at the track as well as finding one where it will work with a splitter properly in the future if I decided to go that route.

Also this moonroof makes the car pretty top heavy because in all my track photos my car is leaning over so much compared to others and thinking about just removing it and getting a cf cover made. Why full cf roof conversion so $$$$?

Next thing on my list is perhaps stiffer springs all around and going to try some nt01.

I saw a guy at the track day with an e90 m3 with full splitter and wing combo. Nice guy. I talked to him to see how he liked that setup, and improvements vs stock but it was his first time out there. So no benchmark. Looked aggressive tho and def looks functional.

OT, OP it looks like our cars are twinzies lol. both e90 m3 blk 6sp. apex with rs3, and kw coils. our times are pretty spot on as well. (~1:55). Autoclub was fun (2nd time out) Hope to see you next time and meet you!

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by elim11

I saw a guy at the track day with an e90 m3 with full splitter and wing combo. Nice guy. I talked to him to see how he liked that setup, and improvements vs stock but it was his first time out there. So no benchmark. Looked aggressive tho and def looks functional.

OT, OP it looks like our cars are twinzies lol. both e90 m3 blk 6sp. apex with rs3, and kw coils. our times are pretty spot on as well. (~1:55). Autoclub was fun (2nd time out) Hope to see you next time and meet you!

We need more sedan power! The guy with aero was part of our group. I was tucked away in the garage but since it looks pretty stock nobody notices. Sleeper status lols.

Did you get to eat? There was another sedan out there that day running 202 but I didn't get a chance to see any other black sedans out there.

Did you do Bimmer Challenge? Next couple ones are up north so the next one I'll be at is buttonwillow on 7/26.

See you there!

[elim11]

Originally Posted by socal TW

We need more sedan power! The guy with aero was part of our group. I was tucked away in the garage but since it looks pretty stock nobody notices. Sleeper status lols.

Did you get to eat? There was another sedan out there that day running 202 but I didn't get a chance to see any other black sedans out there.

Did you do Bimmer Challenge? Next couple ones are up north so the next one I'll be at is buttonwillow on 7/26.

See you there!

I ate at the carls Jr down the street (needed to get gas also). No way I was waiting in the line for the food trucks. I didn't do the bimmer challenge. Had no idea what that was. I thought it was for race cars only or something. It was my 1st time w/ SV.

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by elim11

I ate at the carls Jr down the street (needed to get gas also). No way I was waiting in the line for the food trucks. I didn't do the bimmer challenge. Had no idea what that was. I thought it was for race cars only or something. It was my 1st time w/ SV.

We had a huge bbq grill in the parking lot Free food!

The e90 with aero was parked next to it.

[RINTAXI]

I have gt4 lip and gts wing combo. I did not feel any different between this set up and stock, tbh. I felt a bit more faster because I know they were there, however.

[Triple M]

Originally Posted by socal TW

Good post and thanks.

Is yours a real gts lip? Good time at acs and podium finish!

I got 2nd in B3 with 1:54 for the day and current setup is kw cs and brake pads with RS3.

Getting a little bored with the way my car looks and wanted to put a lip on it for looks as long as it didn't affect performance negatively at the track as well as finding one where it will work with a splitter properly in the future if I decided to go that route.

Also this moonroof makes the car pretty top heavy because in all my track photos my car is leaning over so much compared to others and thinking about just removing it and getting a cf cover made. Why full cf roof conversion so $$$$?

Next thing on my list is perhaps stiffer springs all around and going to try some nt01.

Mine is a temporary APR splitter. I had an Arkym piece for about 3 years, and Phil Hill ate my last BW piece. Congrats on your 2nd place B-3 finish.