Two Failed Skidpad difting Attempts from the Weekend

[RudyP]

You need to use both hands on the steering wheel! Only watched a little bit of one the videos but I can't see your right hand. You are going to need both hands on the wheel - especially when you are just learning.

BTW - the M3 is a very easy car to drive sideways. Very predictable, linear throttle (and plenty of it) a pretty neutral weight balance and a crapload of caster on the front suspension. I have done skidpad exercises in 911s and they are a bear - you have to be lightning fast and precise on those cars to keep a constant drift angle.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by radiantm3

Strange. I was taught the complete opposite at Skip Barber. We did a whole day of drifting via trailbraking and trailing throttle oversteer and the first thing to do to recover from oversteer is to get full opposite lock on the wheel while getting off the gas. Once the car is pointed in the right direction you start giving some gas get the wheel pointed straight. Someone with good car control will obviously do things a bit differently to keep the car at a nice slip angle, but I'm pretty sure the last thing you want to do when oversteering out of control is to give any more gas.

I dunno. It seems to work fine for me...I did BMW's Performance School's "rat race" and was able to stay in the car for 20+ challenges. Only a full bladder took me out of the car.

When you're in a "tail spin" or an oversteer situation, getting completely off the gas actually shifts weight to the front and removes more grip from the rear thus making it unnecessarily hard to counter up front. And notice I didn't say "gun it to the floor," I said keep a constant and steady throttle...And in some situations adding a little more throttle may actually help, especially in a rear wheel driven car.

I actually don't think Skip Barbar's instruction is the BEST way to recover, especially if you completely jump off the throttle. I think the best way to recover or continue the "drift" is to not go completely opposite lock, since doing so you completely remove one of the available tools to recover. The best way to continue the "drift" or recover is to use a combination of hands countering on the steering wheel, AND modulating the throttle in response to the amount of recovery to keep velocity through the turn. When you do go full opposite lock AND get off the throttle is the last resort, IMO.

Actually, the BEST way to recover is to anticipate the spin and initiate slight countersteering just before the rear end steps out.

[radiantm3]

Originally Posted by The HACK

I dunno. It seems to work fine for me...I did BMW's Performance School's "rat race" and was able to stay in the car for 20+ challenges. Only a full bladder took me out of the car.

When you're in a "tail spin" or an oversteer situation, getting completely off the gas actually shifts weight to the front and removes more grip from the rear thus making it unnecessarily hard to counter up front. And notice I didn't say "gun it to the floor," I said keep a constant and steady throttle...And in some situations adding a little more throttle may actually help, especially in a rear wheel driven car.

I actually don't think Skip Barbar's instruction is the BEST way to recover, especially if you completely jump off the throttle. I think the best way to recover or continue the "drift" is to not go completely opposite lock, since doing so you completely remove one of the available tools to recover. The best way to continue the "drift" or recover is to use a combination of hands countering on the steering wheel, AND modulating the throttle in response to the amount of recovery to keep velocity through the turn. When you do go full opposite lock AND get off the throttle is the last resort, IMO.

Actually, the BEST way to recover is to anticipate the spin and initiate slight countersteering just before the rear end steps out.

I'm not arguing with you. But I think the best way for a beginner to learn is to learn how to recover first, not stay in a drift. Based on the videos posted above, the OP should learn to recover from oversteer before learning to stay in a drift. Here's an example of me getting pretty sideways (not on purpose) at infineon:

If I stayed on the gas, I probably would have never recovered. Once the cars back in control you can get back on the gas. However if you are always in control, you can stick to what you mentioned.

Either way, wet skidpads are an awesome way to get better at car control. Once you get it down in the wet, dry tarmac is cake.

[BikeGeek]

^^ fancy driving there

[kiwistu]

Wow the internet!

Firstly full credit to Besiktas for posting and RadiantM3 for great vid and advice.

I've already posted once, but I have to have another crack...drifting in general in IMHO is all about feel and practice and there is no one way of doing it and no you cant learn by reading comments on the internet!

I've gone from full throttle to full brake and back to throttle again on track and stuck it, especially in the wet...practice practice practice!

Cheers
stu

Baby drift:

[InterJon]

Originally Posted by 4sevens.com

You need an instructor to ride with you.

Next time try this... don't try feathering the throttle - bring it up to speed and a little more and hold it... then focus on your hands... just hold the throttle and leave it and use the wheel to correct and manage the car.

Word. Catch it by releasing the wheel. Let it do the work.

[radiantm3]

Originally Posted by kiwistu

Wow the internet!

Firstly full credit to Besiktas for posting and RadiantM3 for great vid and advice.

I've already posted once, but I have to have another crack...drifting in general in IMHO is all about feel and practice and there is no one way of doing it and no you cant learn by reading comments on the internet!

I've gone from full throttle to full brake and back to throttle again on track and stuck it, especially in the wet...practice practice practice!

Cheers
stu

Baby drift:

Nice and with a roof rack.

[bigjae1976]

I had an ex-formula drift guy instruct me at the one drift practice I did. Even he had trouble keeping my car sideways because the car is that damned good. I have a DCT. Your only option is to just overpower the rear wheels which takes quite a bit of speed in the M3.

What really helped me was starting to think about things a little differently. When the back end starts comes around, your front wheels should be pointed in the direction that you intend to travel in. So now you are steering the car with the throttle by allowing the car to oscillate around the front wheels. When I saw this FD guy drift my car he only touched the steering wheel in transitions. Otherwise it was all throttle. He also said to keep the car sideways we had to be going a lot faster. The drift area wasn't quite big enough to safely do that.

Now when I break the back end loose on the track my hands are off the steering wheel letting the back end go and making sure the front wheels are pointed in the right direction. The hard part is figuring out when to catch the wheel. I can't really explain that...I just do it. The key is you have to anticipate...otherwise you've got a tank slapper.

[soberin]

Originally Posted by radiantm3

Strange. I was taught the complete opposite at Skip Barber. We did a whole day of drifting via trailbraking and trailing throttle oversteer and the first thing to do to recover from oversteer is to get full opposite lock on the wheel while getting off the gas. Once the car is pointed in the right direction you start giving some gas get the wheel pointed straight. Someone with good car control will obviously do things a bit differently to keep the car at a nice slip angle, but I'm pretty sure the last thing you want to do when oversteering out of control is to give any more gas.

What you do with the throttle depends on what type of oversteer you have.

1. Power oversteer while exiting a corner for example, requires getting off the throttle while countersteering to restore grip to the spinning rear tires.

2. Trailing throttle oversteer due to lifting off the throttle in a corner because you get nervous, requires carefully getting back on the gas while you countersteer, in order to transfer weight back to the rear drive wheels. Note that TTO is harder to correct because you are going faster than in example 1 above, and you have already panicked by lifting off just before the slide started. With power oversteer exiting a corner you feel more in control.

[radiantm3]

Originally Posted by soberin

What you do with the throttle depends on what type of oversteer you have.

1. Power oversteer while exiting a corner for example, requires getting off the throttle while countersteering to restore grip to the spinning rear tires.

2. Trailing throttle oversteer due to lifting off the throttle in a corner because you get nervous, requires carefully getting back on the gas while you countersteer, in order to transfer weight back to the rear drive wheels. Note that TTO is harder to correct because you are going faster than in example 1 above, and you have already panicked by lifting off just before the slide started. With power oversteer exiting a corner you feel more in control.

Not sure if you are saying that I lifted in my video which caused me to oversteer, but I should note that the data visualization is like a second faster than the video so it looks like I got off the gas and then oversteered even though I didn't. It was definitely a power oversteer and you can see I was at full throttle as I was straightening out the wheel. I just got on full gas too early and the car was very light going over the crest. I got off the gas and counter-steered quickly because I felt the rear coming around very fast. Just felt like I should make that clear.

[besiktas]

I can correct when the rear gives out, i had to several times on track, but i just cant maintain the drift. I wonder if there is a place i can practice legally. (without signing up for track time)

Video Below is from session with rain on wet track, many people went off the track, i had to work hard to keep the car straight.

more videos on http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=756000

[kiwistu]

Hi

Great vid from the track looks like good fun! Nothing like a good track day.

Plenty of practice to be had in the local industrial estate on a wet sunday for 1 and 2 second gear slides, the big round about's (we call them) for turn trucks are perfect!

And no one around, however, anything beyond low speed 2nd gear on road your a nutter - too many lamp posts and curbs!

Plus doing track time you can wind up all your mate in their fancy cars who never drive them!

Cheers
stu

[besiktas]

I realized that during the skidpad attemps, i had the steering in normal mode and not sport. i was wondering why i was getting so little output with so much input turning the wheel.

[MaxL]

Originally Posted by radiantm3

Not sure if you are saying that I lifted in my video which caused me to oversteer, but I should note that the data visualization is like a second faster than the video so it looks like I got off the gas and then oversteered even though I didn't. It was definitely a power oversteer and you can see I was at full throttle as I was straightening out the wheel. I just got on full gas too early and the car was very light going over the crest. I got off the gas and counter-steered quickly because I felt the rear coming around very fast. Just felt like I should make that clear.

The delay in telemetry makes it not very useful, unfortunately. If it was not delayed, it would look like 100% off-throttle oversteer case - initially rear starts going out slowly because of a bit too much throttle (or too much steering), you jump off while correcting with steering, and the car starts coming around MUCH faster after that. If you take into account telemetry delay, it is still possible that coming off throttle that rapidly and completely made it worse - the rear has optimal level of grip when you have at least maintenance level of throttle to prevent engine braking (robs rear tires of grip in all cases and is pretty strong in M3) and excessive weight transfer to the front.

As for drifting M3 - it's very much possible, but gets expensive quickly. I'm not good at it mainly because I do not practice anything but recovery, but many from our lapping bunch mastered it pretty well (starts at 0:55):

[u2b]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jTuLBo4Vb4s[/u2b]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=jTuLBo4Vb4s

[OC3]

Originally Posted by besiktas

I can correct when the rear gives out, i had to several times on track, but i just cant maintain the drift. I wonder if there is a place i can practice legally. (without signing up for track time)

Video Below is from session with rain on wet track, many people went off the track, i had to work hard to keep the car straight.

Surface that slippery is not a good medium for beginners with high HP cars to practice on. In your first video, you just blip'd the throttle and the darn'd car is doing donuts!

With 414hp on tap, just try it on a dry surface. And, once you get drift going, maintain the drift with (counter-)steering and modulating (increase, decrease, increase, decrease, etc) the throttle.

[fourtailpipes]

not to suggest that i didnt watch your videos, but i think the stills that come up for your videos suggest one major change right off the bat:

you need to keep your hands both on the wheel. ideally at 9:00 and 3:00. the shenandoah skidpad is pretty broad and shouldnt require any hand shuffling. in the second picture, you can see your left arm is across your body, palm up, not holding the wheel, and your right hand is nowhere to be found. with only one hand on the wheel, palming it around in circles, you're going to have a lot of trouble controlling the car and training your muscles to make hand movements of the correct magnitudes. i definitely don;t intend to discourage you, but it's difficult to comment on technique at this point. have you ever had an instuctor sit with you on the skidpad? with good real-time critique, it's possible to cram a whole lot of car control learning into a short time on a wet pad.

[besiktas]

Point taken. both hands on wheel No i didnbt have instructor, i just wanted to give it a shot between the sessions, wasnt really trying crazy hard just wanted to give a shot.
I probably need to drive with instructor next time

[fourtailpipes]

Originally Posted by besiktas

Point taken. both hands on wheel No i didnbt have instructor, i just wanted to give it a shot between the sessions, wasnt really trying crazy hard just wanted to give a shot.
I probably need to drive with instructor next time

did your run group not get skidpad time? being that you're in VA, and apparently close enough to summit, try to attend an event that includes instructed time on any of the multiple wet skidpads they have on campus there. time on the skidpad with constructive pointers coming from the passenger seat is possibly the most efficient environment for garnering technical car control skills.

...and lets not call these failed attempts. perhaps a little misguided (or unguided i guess) but everyone's first trip to the skidpad is ugly. just try to put in more good efforts on the skidpad, you you'll see huge improvements in your driving on the track.

[kiwistu]

MaxL brilliant!

Cheers
stu

[MaxL]

Originally Posted by kiwistu

MaxL brilliant!

Cheers
stu

Just to clarify, it's not me drifting in the vid, if that's what you meant

[Repoman]

Nice vids! Keep practicing till it's smooth...

[paradocs98]

Originally Posted by fourtailpipes

not to suggest that i didnt watch your videos, but i think the stills that come up for your videos suggest one major change right off the bat:

you need to keep your hands both on the wheel. ideally at 9:00 and 3:00. the shenandoah skidpad is pretty broad and shouldnt require any hand shuffling. in the second picture, you can see your left arm is across your body, palm up, not holding the wheel, and your right hand is nowhere to be found. with only one hand on the wheel, palming it around in circles, you're going to have a lot of trouble controlling the car and training your muscles to make hand movements of the correct magnitudes. i definitely don;t intend to discourage you, but it's difficult to comment on technique at this point. have you ever had an instuctor sit with you on the skidpad? with good real-time critique, it's possible to cram a whole lot of car control learning into a short time on a wet pad.

I wondered about that, too, but if you watch the videos all the way through you'll see that besiktas initially did most of the attempts with both hands on the wheel. Then he starts to do it with his right hand off--I wondered why, but then I realized he was likely using his right hand to pull the e-brake to initiate the slide...