Let's talk joy of driving: 6MT vs M-DCT

[footie]

If I may I would like to address each point separately.

Originally Posted by enigma

I find it real interesting how quickly a comment like "Posts like these make me think the 6mt if the new Poser's car" can generate an outrage.

I understand what you are saying and agree, some people are jumping on the bandwagon as saying exactly that, but the reality is that some people accept and welcome technologies solely because it's new while others accept and welcome it purely for the fact it's much quicker, more efficient and easier to use (this latter point maybe debatable).

But to generalise everyone as posers for choosing a stick would and should give the reaction you are seeing, because in our mind we choose this option purely for the reason that a car is to be enjoyed to the full, especially a second car which the M3 will be to many of us. Most already own either an automatic car or something a bit ordinary and that is the reason for craving the M3 in the first place, so for me and many others getting the full experience is very important and sorry if this disagrees with anyone but you only get that with the manual.

Originally Posted by enigma

However, "DSG, DCT, SMG...blah blah blah, it's still an auto. Sure, it's not a standard automatic transmission, but you still have no control over the clutch. " while being factually wrong is no biggie.

Sorry enigma, but here I totally disagree, you are not in control of the clutch in the true meaning of the word. If you feel that because you can chose when you change gear means you are in control of the actual clutch then please get me some of what you are on because I need some about now.

Originally Posted by enigma

There is a clear trend here. Those advocating DCT simply talk about how good it is and what it can do. While the MT crowd feel compelled to attack it and insult the drivers that choose it. I just though I would flip the tactics and see how the other side reacted for once.

Personally I have always provided a true experience of life with a Dual Clutch system, some may find my experience of that year as different to theirs or may disagree with my findings but others who are in doubt may find what I am saying as enlightening and might strike a cord with how they think their experience might go. If what I say stops someone from making a mistake then surely that's a good thing.

Originally Posted by enigma

Lets be completely clear on one thing. Choosing 6mt is choosing a slower and less performant car simply to have a lever to move and a pedal to push. If thats not style over substance I don't know what is.

That's statement is one of the reasons why I feel some here choice technology purely for figures and really don't care about the ownership and frill of driving one single bit.

[footie]

Originally Posted by GarryF

Note that buying a MT to show off is probably just a USA issue, in the UK and most other countries 90% of cars are MT and you have to pass your test in one so you don't drive a MT to impress people, everyone just considers them normal.

Maybe I should have got DCT so the wife wouldn't know how to drive the M3...

That's was exactly what my wife thought when I chose to place her in the DSG GTI, she actually learned to like but then again she hardly ever took it out of auto mode and when she forgot which gear she was in, so best kept in auto mode I say.

[gblansten]

I got my car back yesterday after two weeks without it. Someone's bumper disagreed with my door.

I really missed the manual transmission in my car and the feel you get for the revs with it. I'm really leaning hard now towards staying in the 6mt camp.

I hope a bunch of you post when you get your M-DCT M3s and let us know how it goes.

[T Bone]

Normally, I would come into this type of thread and pound on footie but I offer another perspective (other than new vs. old technologies).

I attended the 2 day M school in Spartanburg last May and we got to drive around in Z4M (6MT) and M5 (SMG).

People really do not know how to drive 6MTs well. To drive 6MT well, you literally needs years of practice with heel-n-toe.

Using myself as a constant because I believe I can drive a 6MT well. I was definitely catching people quicker in the 6MT than SMG cars. Once people stopped concentrating on managing the shifting, they had better lines, throttle control, brake points etc.

The point is, if you really really really want to do the shifting, at least take the discipline to learn how to drive it.

Hope this helps (without my usual outrageous comments).

[footie]

Thanks T-Bone for your lean-ency towards my god self. Clearly the fact that you aren't bashing me must might that what I have and am saying have stuck a cord with you too.

What am I saying, of course that isn't the case, my are just having an off day and will no doubt be back on form soon.

Let me say this, I too am looking forward to sampling the new DCT and will be posting my opinions on whether BMW have moved the game on from where DSG had taken it.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by GarryF

...
5. The DCT is unproven, unreviewed and will most likely be trouble for the first year.

Right now if you have money to burn then go DCT, I live 70 miles from the dealer and don't really need something like that crapping out on me every second week until they get the software figured out in 6 months, the fact there are none at all in the public domain would concern me right now.

Shouldn't these posts be auto locked with a link to the 100 other arguments on the same subject, if you want DCT then get it, it'll most likely be pretty good, if you want 6MT then get it, it'll be guaranteed to be as good as any other manual bmw has made,

Wrong, wrong wrong.

The BMW DCT is from Getrag but uses Borg Warner design details and this system has been proven out well in the VW/Audi world. Sure, that being said the BMW system is brand new.

Isn't thinking the DCT will crap out on you every second week just a slight exaggeration/paranoia? Much of the software and mechanisms can be similar or identical to SMGIII which is quite a mature and reliable system.

As I just posted in another thread about 2 minutes ago complexity can correlate (inversely) with reliability but this is far from a true inverse relationship. There are simply way too many other confounding variables.

Last but not least there have been significant comments about poor/rubbery feel of the M3s 6MT shift lever and other (subjective) comments about too light of a pedal feel. There is nothing so inherent about a MT that precludes it from unreliability. Calling it a "guranteed good" is simply over the top.

Your points are all based on reason but argued to the point of absurdity.

[skierman64]

Originally Posted by T Bone

Using myself as a constant because I believe I can drive a 6MT well. I was definitely catching people quicker in the 6MT than SMG cars. Once people stopped concentrating on managing the shifting, they had better lines, throttle control, brake points etc.

T-bone, you say you were seeing people drive faster in the 6mt then SMG because they weren't worried about managing the shifting? I'm not tracking with you, I'd think the opposite would be true. The SMG would allow people to not worry about the shifting thus allowing folks to go faster.

Did I read that wrong?

[footie]

Originally Posted by skierman64

T-bone, you say you were seeing people drive faster in the 6mt then SMG because they weren't worried about managing the shifting? I'm not tracking with you, I'd think the opposite would be true. The SMG would allow people to not worry about the shifting thus allowing folks to go faster.

Did I read that wrong?

skierman64,

I agree with T-Bone on this but I reckon it's more a case of the people being unfamiliar with the SMG setup, unlike a normal stick where your hand and mind makes a mental link with which gear you are in you don't get that with flicking a paddle.

You have to train your brain differently which takes time.

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by skierman64

T-bone, you say you were seeing people drive faster in the 6mt then SMG because they weren't worried about managing the shifting? I'm not tracking with you, I'd think the opposite would be true. The SMG would allow people to not worry about the shifting thus allowing folks to go faster.

Did I read that wrong?

Nope.... I was catching people quicker when we were all in the 6MT, which means they were slower on a relative basis (to me) in the 6MT than the SMG.

[Saturn]

200 years ago equestrians ridiculed the first motorists. I imagine they felt that in order to have an undiluted experience of travel, one must have the basic, powerful, and organic sensation of controlling a beast bent to your will.

200 years later, MT drivers ridicule DCT enthusiats. I imagine they feel that in order to have an undiluted experience of driving, one must have the basic, powerful, and mechanical sensation of controlling a transmission subject to your will.

Times change.

[M2381]

From a different perspective here.

I have only driven stick shift twice in my entire life, but I chose a 6MT for my car. Why? Because the times I did drive stick shift was the time I had the most fun and felt closest to the car.

Yes, it has been proven that you may get a better track time or a better 0 to 60 time in the M-DCT but in my PERSONAL opinion you may not have as much fun as you would in a manual car. And yes, there ARE some good drivers out there who can get a perfect shift everytime and congratulations! good for you. Change is usually associated as a bad thing for a lot of people so some people should also be a little more understanding.

Mostly everyone has good logical arguments so why don't we just keep it at that? Instead of making personal attacks and comments. If everyone just respected each other and held back that "smart comment" we would all get along a lot better...

I means its not like we're here arguing about a merc and a bmw...we are all GETTING the same 4 liter V8 so why can't we all just be a little more understanding of each other?

[footie]

Originally Posted by T Bone

Nope.... I was catching people quicker when we were all in the 6MT, which means they were slower on a relative basis (to me) in the 6MT than the SMG.

I too misunderstood what you were meaning, but now you have explained it better this surprises me. But then again we are talking about the US where most people drive autos unlike here.

[skierman64]

Originally Posted by T Bone

Nope.... I was catching people quicker when we were all in the 6MT, which means they were slower on a relative basis (to me) in the 6MT than the SMG.

A-ha, I did read that wrong. I read "catching" as in watching. In addition to the 6MT being a factor there we're also other factors involved such as the Z4M coupes only having 333hp vs 505 in the M5, therefore momentum and keeping speed up through the turns was even more important. Horsepower is the great equalizer for straightaway speed.

Good observations.

[skierman64]

Originally Posted by M2381

From a different perspective here.

I have only driven stick shift twice in my entire life, but I chose a 6MT for my car. Why? Because the times I did drive stick shift was the time I had the most fun and felt closest to the car.

Yes, it has been proven that you may get a better track time or a better 0 to 60 time in the M-DCT but in my PERSONAL opinion you may not have as much fun as you would in a manual car. And yes, there ARE some good drivers out there who can get a perfect shift everytime and congratulations! good for you. Change is usually associated as a bad thing for a lot of people so some people should also be a little more understanding.

Mostly everyone has good logical arguments so why don't we just keep it at that? Instead of making personal attacks and comments. If everyone just respected each other and held back that "smart comment" we would all get along a lot better...

I means its not like we're here arguing about a merc and a bmw...we are all GETTING the same 4 liter V8 so why can't we all just be a little more understanding of each other?

Very well said: for me I've been driving stick longer than some folks on here have been alive. I love driving stick, but on this car the technology of this new generation of transmission along with the precision shifting provided by DCT outweighed the fun of stick. I think the DCT will be just as fun to drive and will make the 8400 rpm redline of the motor even more usable. The motor is still connected to the drive wheels by a mechanical solid connection and there won't be any of the hated slushbox hydraulics involved that IMHO make automatics uninvolving and isolating for the driver of such cars.

In the end its a matter of preference. If my choice had been 6MT vs a real automatic tranny, 6MT would have been my choice without hesitation.

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by skierman64

A-ha, I did read that wrong. I read "catching" as in watching. In addition to the 6MT being a factor there we're also other factors involved such as the Z4M coupes only having 333hp vs 505 in the M5, therefore momentum and keeping speed up through the turns was even more important. Horsepower is the great equalizer for straightaway speed.

Good observations.

Well, I would say the only variables were the driver since we were only on the track with the same car types. I was visibily faster than the "group" with the 6MT than SMG. It was getting frustrating too, as soon as I got into a ryhthm, I got called off by the instructors because I caught up to the next car.

Originally Posted by footie

I too misunderstood what you were meaning, but now you have explained it better this surprises me. But then again we are talking about the US where most people drive autos unlike here.

I cannot disagree, many people in the US have not driven MT cars which is why it is still a novelty here.

Even if you were lucky enough to drive a 6MT in the US on the street, it is WAY different on the track. Why? On the track you usually brake heavily and heel-n-toe downshift....this is much different foot position than moderate braking on the street so the footwork required for the track is much different and harder than the street.

BTW, the very first car I drove a MT was a Ford Escort. I got the car as part of a job when I was 16, the owner of the business asked if I could drive stick and I said "sure" (like any 16 year old male), I stalled it many times in intersections and almost got killed.

The first manual car that was my own was an 1984 944.

[footie]

Originally Posted by T Bone

I cannot disagree, many people in the US have not driven MT cars which is why it is still a novelty here

Even if you were lucky enough to drive a 6MT in the US on the street, it is WAY different on the track. Why? On the track you usually brake heavily and heel-n-toe downshift....this is much different foot position than moderate braking on the street so the footwork required for the track is much different and harder than the street.

That's what I meant T-B, over here everyone has been brought up on manuals and to be perfectly honest heel-n-toe is that big a deal. The fact that everyone was more even with the SMG would be the equivalent to everyone being more even with the manual over here. It's just what you are most use to I suppose.

Originally Posted by T Bone

BTW, the very first car I drove a MT was a Ford Escort. I got the car as part of a job when I was 16, the owner of the business asked if I could drive stick and I said "sure" (like any 16 year old male), I stalled it many times in intersections and almost got killed.

Drive the new S5, I still occasionally stall it. It one of the things the DCT will make life easier that's for sure, but if everything was easy then where would be the fun in that.

Originally Posted by T Bone

The first manual car that was my own was an 1984 944.

Drove one of those for a brief while (not my own), champagne coloured with black leather and black five star centre alloys with silver rim, great car and one of the best handling Porsches ever. A bit under powered, the model I was in was the 944 2.5L, the real improvement came with the 944S2. Would love to get my hands on a fine example now but you hardly see any about anymore.

Which model did you have?

[!Xoible]

i could careless what type of tranny it is as long as they give me a 3rd pedal to play with

3rd pedal should be an option even on auto's, and even if it's not functional

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by footie

Drove one of those for a brief while (not my own), champagne coloured with black leather and black five star centre alloys with silver rim, great car and one of the best handling Porsches ever. A bit under powered, the model I was in was the 944 2.5L, the real improvement came with the 944S2. Would love to get my hands on a fine example now but you hardly see any about anymore.

Which model did you have?

1984 944
1986 944 Turbo racecar
1989 944 Turbo S (modded to 350 hp)

Very light and neutral handling..... 944 Turbos are still extremely popular track cars. The 944 Turbo was a great car for the day.... But comparing the motor to a modern turbo motor like the N54 (335i)....no comparison.

Pics of the 1989 Turbo shown here (I have pics of my old racecar but too lazy to scan) - you can see another Guards Red 944 in the background

[footie]

Was lucky enough to get a drive in one of these when they were around and not such a collector's item.

Was one of the most enjoyment car I even steered and probably the close thing to rival the E30 M3.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by mantis

i could careless what type of tranny it is as long as they give me a 3rd pedal to play with

3rd pedal should be an option even on auto's, and even if it's not functional

I really hope 2 things here.

1. You have beeb reading this WHOLE thread.

2. You are not (still) confised between a dual clutch automated manual and an automatic.

Your post above makes it sound like there is no way either of the above are the case.

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by footie

Was lucky enough to get a drive in one of these when they were around and not such a collector's item.

Was one of the most enjoyment car I even steered and probably the close thing to rival the E30 M3.

You are lucky.....The 924 GTR did well in Lemans in 1980.

The 924 and 944 had deep Audi roots....before they got heavy

[skierman64]

Originally Posted by mantis

i could careless what type of tranny it is as long as they give me a 3rd pedal to play with

3rd pedal should be an option even on auto's, and even if it's not functional

We have a 3rd pedal on the DCTs, it's way over to the left of the brake.