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03-15-2008, 02:54 PM | #23 |
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Without voiding whose warranty? BMW's or Dinan's? Correct me if I am wrong, but I am under the impression that the warranty is extended by Dinan in that case, not by BMW, which means you need to take it to a Dinan aproved shop and run into who knows what kind of haggling and dealing. Again, correct me if I'm misinformed on this.
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03-15-2008, 03:29 PM | #24 | |
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03-15-2008, 03:32 PM | #25 | |
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What I like about BMW coverage is that it is almost no questions asked unless you've done something obviously stupid to the car. I don't like to have a gray zone in this type of interaction.
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03-15-2008, 03:34 PM | #26 | |
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There used to be a Porsche advertisement that showed a larger engine on one page with the heading about how their competitors increase performance. On the other page, there were pictures of tires, wheels, suspension, transmission, interior and exterior bits from a Porsche - the heading was this is how Porsche increases performance. The point being that more horsepower does not simply make a better car. In the end, whether it's worth 20K (I built a 335 coupe and an M3 couple with the options I have ordered and got this number) is a personal one. I have decided it is worth it. Others will decide differently. I do know that I will be happy with my M3. |
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03-16-2008, 07:22 AM | #27 |
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A nicely equipped 335 is close to $50000 before mods. Now add Dinan flash = $2000, exhaust $1500, coilovers and sway bars $2500, LSD $3000, 19" forged wheels and tires $3000-$5000. So we are really talking about a $70,00 vrs $60,000 comparison before cosmetic mods like M-tech steering wheel, M-tech package etc. etc. And in the end you don't have that incredible engine. I love my modded 335 but I really like the new M3 as well.
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03-16-2008, 07:19 PM | #28 |
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Balanced?
The M3 was originally a performance oriented version of a 3-series car. That is the M3 heritage that those who speak of heritage refer to. The M car pulled out a few stops in order to get the performance but it was still a 3 series car and that had implications at one point about cost and practicality. The M3 was the best of the "best in class" 3-series. The M5 was not an M3 and it wasn't just about the interior and size. It was about balance and not just driving balance but all the other factors that cause people to buy an entry level sedan and NOT a full bore sports car (with two seats, 10 mpg, limitless noise and limitless price).
Because of competition, the 2008 M3 really pushes the limit of what a 3 series car is. Give me the 335i with the same performance suspension as the M3 and the same chip specs that Dinan will warranty and price it at the same 19% over the 335 (as the '97 M3 sedan was over '97 328, which would be a price of 46,300) and I'd be quite pleased and happy with the new M3 (and put a 330HP NA engine in the 335). The trouble is that BMW has allowed Audi, MB and Lexus to change the definitions of what the M badge means to the 3-series and the M3 car is NOT what it once was in relation to the rest of the series. At some point it's not a 3-series BMW and when it reaches that point then what is it and what happened to the real M3? Model Base Price MPG Power 97 Sedan 318 26,520 23/31 138 328 33,470 (26% more than the 318) 20/29 190 (38% more power) M3 39,950 (19% more than the 328) 20/28 240 (26% more power) 02 Coupe 325 29,100 19-20/26-29 184 330 34,990 (20% more than the 325) 17-21/25-30 225 (22% more power) M3 45,900 (31% more than the 330) 16/23-24 333 (48% more power) 08 Sedan 328 32,400 17-19/25-28 230 335 38,900 (20% more than the 328) 16-17/25-26 300 (30% more power) M3 53,800 (38% more than the 335) 14/20 414 (38% more power) You can see that in 1997 the M3 was priced 19% above the "top" level 3-series car (the 328) and output 26% more power with about the same MPG (ie. practical cost to drive). Fast forward and you see that the 2008 M3 is priced 38% above the "top" level 3-series car (the 335) and outputs "38%" more power with much worse MPG (6K-10K/decade more expensive to drive). That assumes the 335 output is 300HP, if you figure the 335 output is 330HP then the M3 only outputs 25% more power for the same 38% increase in cost and the 335 outputs 43% more power than the 328 for a mere 30% increase in cost (about what an M car should do) and at roughly the same cost to drive. I feel confident that the handling changes between the 97 M3 and 97 328 are the same as between the 08 M3 and 335. BMW is asking more and more for less and less differential between the cars. In addition they are asking that premium for a car that has significantly less daily driver practicality as the rest of the 3-series cars. Anyone arguing that price and practicality don't mater to "M" drivers is clueless to at least *some* of the heritage because you could always get a better performance car than an M3, just not necessarily one that seats four, has the same purchase price and has the same cost to operate. None of this considers the fact that the 335 basically has an engine in it that can be placed to within the same performance spec as the M3 with the same reliability (as least the same reliability as determined by what is guaranteed) and with a very minimal "install" risk. I think these factors play a role in why *some* people compare the 335 to the M3 (or think it should be the M3) and why some people that could buy either still choose the 335. Some people really do want a 3-series car and I'm not sure the 08 M3 is that. I think that those who will pay a 38% premium for the "M" and justify it based on the "heritage" don't really understand the entirety of that heritage. If they did, then why from the perspective of the M3 heritage are they willing to pay so much for so little improvement and with so much sacrifice in practicality too? Just my thoughts on the subject as someone considering both and who could pay cash for either. I think the M3 is a great car. I think it's by far best in class. I'm not sure it's a 3-series BMW and I don't think that the other cars in the M3's class bear any relation to the 3-series competition (didn't the four in A4 used to mean 4 cylinders not twice that many). Can BMW put an M3 badge on anything and will people still consider it 3-series? Will the M3 go the way of NASCAR "stock" cars? I hope not, I want an M3. |
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03-16-2008, 07:34 PM | #30 | |
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03-16-2008, 07:52 PM | #31 |
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Well for me, I am just looking to chip the 335 which would only be like 2k. That alone makes it close to being as fast ina straight line to a M3. I have the GT-R on order rather than the M3 for pure speed.
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03-16-2008, 11:12 PM | #32 | |
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But today I got to go over a new one at our local dealer, and found that, from a looks standpoint, I like the 335 (and 328) better. Much better. The M3 has that hood bulge, various air ducts, and body cladding, all of which tend to screw up the very clean lines on the base coupes. I feel the same way about 911s. One of my sons has a 911S in Arctic Silver, and frankly, next to a C4S or Turbo, it's classically beautiful. Those other models are scooped and spoilered to a fare thee well, and for me, that doesn't do it. Yeah, I know. A lot of folks want their speed to show, so that's how manufacturers build 'em. It's a pity, though. Some of us don't want their speed to show. Sigh. Maybe I should go find my old '98 Neon (if it hasn't rusted into a shapeless pile by now). There was a car where the speed didn't show. Sure, it was a POS, but on track, DAMN, that car was quick. Bruce |
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03-17-2008, 03:21 PM | #33 |
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I cant wait to have a few runs with one...........
I just will feel bad when I neck the M3 out,,,,,,,,,Im just no that type of asshole to gloryify it. All in all BMW did a very nice price point between the 2 cars. Money is money and some have more, some have less. |
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03-17-2008, 04:02 PM | #34 | |
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03-17-2008, 04:52 PM | #35 | |
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Best regards, south
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03-17-2008, 05:21 PM | #36 |
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Does anyone have a couple of comparison photos showing the underneath if an M3 and a 335?
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03-17-2008, 06:29 PM | #37 | |
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03-18-2008, 05:32 PM | #38 | |
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Only I own a home, own a successful company, single (it's where I like to stay at this point in my life), still live well within my means, & travel pretty often, so why not |
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03-18-2008, 05:35 PM | #39 |
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As are those of the English language, apparently.
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03-18-2008, 06:11 PM | #40 | |
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For me, the M3 wins for several reasons, not in any particular order. 1) Better DD than 335 -- EDC beats any stock or aftermarket solution for the 335 as I can be more comfortable on bad roads and then change to better performance at the push of a button. 2) Mods never work out for me, ever. Cars, computers, what not. I am always the guy with issues. Plus, no local shops impress me enough for me to trust spending $10k+ on chip, exhaust, brakes, suspension to simulate an M3. 3) Enhanced premium sound -- local audio shops suck. I installed new speakers, subwoofer and amp myself in the E46. a/d/s, JL audio, good stuff. Maintenance has been a PITA. Don't plan on doing that again. 4) Better track performance -- I don't care about stoplight races against kids. Reckless driving actually means something to me. Plan on doing track school and events. 5) Leather. Owns the 335. Extended leather beats it silly. 6) Looks -- CF roof, distinctive color, better trim, better stock wheels (that are *forged* which is a necessity here) 7) DCT -- mmmmm can't wait. 8) Total Cost of Ownership -- I plan to sell the car in 3-4 years (likely for another M3), and the E92 will likely be cheaper to barely more expensive to own over that time than a well-modded 335. This, of course, depends on residuals, but mods add cost without adding resale value, especially in my market. 9) High-revving, great sounding. MMM good. Both are great cars. The target markets for both are much older than the average forum age here -- don't be fooled. The most vocal agitators for both sides of the 335 modded vs M3 debate tend to be the younger members of the forum, imho.
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03-18-2008, 06:20 PM | #41 |
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+1 to Keto.
335 owners, feel free to debate the topic, but posts like that one from MarkNg335i just make you sound childish and envious, which we know the vast majority of you are not. Bruce your observations and thoughts are always appreciated!
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03-18-2008, 06:22 PM | #42 |
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i cant wait till a 300hp 1 series starts whoopin on these 3 series owners so they will start to shut up. then they will have someone else in their own league to beef with instead of stepping into big dog territory lol
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03-18-2008, 06:33 PM | #43 | |
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Great points Keto. #8 has not been talked about much but is so right on target. If owning a vehicle for three years or less, heavy mods kill you in total cost of ownership due to the extremely high depreciation. |
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03-18-2008, 07:06 PM | #44 | |
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"...it's not about the money and not about the brand of the car, it's about handling,performance and passion......And that, no other car has all together like an M3........when you talk about the most complete car the M is invincible." --Tony Kanaan. |
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