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04-18-2010, 08:25 AM | #24 | |
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I'm not sure you have it all right here.... I'm pretty sure a lean mixture burns hotter. I was under the impression it runs richer because it's easier to get a cold/high compression engine started with a rich mixture - think back to the days of a choke on a carburetor, it cut off air so the mixture was richer. Also a rich mixture dumps more unburned fuel into the cats which then burns there and heats them up quicker.
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04-18-2010, 08:37 AM | #25 |
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On initial startup when the engine is cold the secondary air injection is turned on and the mixture is richened to heat up the cats quickly.
The combination of the extra fuel and air from the secondary air injection pump makes the exhaust note more agressive during the first ~30 seconds. All modern OBDII cars do this it is just that with a more muffled exhaust it is harder to notice. |
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04-18-2010, 05:07 PM | #26 | |
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To fully understand the thermal effects of non stoichiometric burns you have to consider multiple phenomena. Flame temperature AND heat transfer to engine components. I mentioned this prior. However, I can assure you that moving from stoichiometric to EITHER rich or lean produces a cooler combustion flame temperature. Again under a rich condition the extra fuel absorbs the combustion energy (heat of vaporization). When lean the same thing applies but the cool excess oxygen is what is absorbs part of the combustion energy. See the graph and explanation below (from Combustion, Third Edition, Irvin Glassman, available on google books). This is true across most HC combustion, not just gasoline in ICEs. Engine operating temperature depend on a many more factors other than just flame/combustion temperature. Burn rate is a key factor.
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04-18-2010, 05:21 PM | #27 |
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Here's the way to solve this discussion.
Reset your mpg calculator. Do a cold start and drive a mile or 2. See what the mileage is. Drive around and warm up the engine, 10 minutes or so. Go back to starting point. Reset the mpg calculator again. restart the warm engine. drive the same route using the same rpm shifting points and use the (approximate) same amount of throttle as before. I'll bet the cold start gets worse mileage because the engine is running rich.
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04-18-2010, 05:24 PM | #28 |
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I'm pretty sure it's lean because when I have a wideband on a car it's hitting like a 21:1 AFR for the first 10 or 15 seconds after a cold start. Super lean. Drops down to 14.7:1 once the idle lowers to normal.
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04-18-2010, 05:32 PM | #29 | |
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04-18-2010, 08:41 PM | #31 | ||
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Back to the OP why is lean and retarded timing loud? Once we have that I think we have the full answer.
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04-18-2010, 09:44 PM | #32 |
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First, a gas engine will not start cold with a mixture that is even 14.7-1....... The mixture has to be enriched or the engine will not start and run, period. When the any engine (S65 included) is started cold I guarantee you it is running a mixture that is enriched.
Second, the secondary air injection pump pushes fresh air into the exhaust stream which causes oxidation of the unburned fuel in the exhaust stream therefore increasing the temperature of the exhaust and heating the catalysts so that they reach the temperature required for catalyzation to take place. Basically the secondary air injection pump helps takes care of the very rich cold start emissions until the catalysts are up to temperature plus it helps to heat up the cats in the process. Third, the reason a wideband would read 21-1 AFR at initial start-up is due to two reasons. The first reason is that the wideband will not properly read until it warms up to operating temperature. The second reason is that with the air pump sending fresh air into the exhaust stream it actually causes oxidation (recombustion of the unburned fuel) within the exhaust upstream of the O2 sensors which makes the exhaust stream lean even though the mixture is rich in the combustion chamber. Finally, an engine is running in a closed loop mode (does not use the O2 to adjust mixture) until the engine coolant temperature sensor sees operating temperature is reached. During this warm-up/closed loop period the AFR is predetermined by the ECM and not adjusted based on O2 sensor readings. Basically these cars sound mean on a cold start till the secondary injection pump turns off, it's that simple. |
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04-19-2010, 12:45 AM | #33 | |
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Good input ^.
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I'm not quite making the causal connection between secondary injection and the higher noise level. Don't you think that the timing affects both the rough idle and sound before the cats are hot?
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04-19-2010, 07:37 AM | #34 | |
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04-19-2010, 08:11 AM | #35 | ||
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Yes combustion is happening outside of the combustion chamber...... you see the exhaust which is already quite hot and rich only needs additional oxygen to oxidize the remaining unburned fuel in the exhaust stream just aft of the exhaust ports. This combustion is not explosive or anything like the additional combustion event and this is the reason why I prefer to refer to it as oxidization. Oxidization is technically the acceleration/intensification of combustion by adding oxygen. This oxidization is just like when you add oxygen to an OXY-Acetylene torch....... adding the oxygen allows a hotter flame and makes for complete combustion of the fuel. If you have ever done any cutting with a torch you know when you run out of oxygen the flame from the torch is not nearly as hot and emits thick black soot/smoke which is unburned acetylene (fuel). An engine on idle needs a rich mixture to start and run when cold however it cannot get enough oxygen into the cylinder at idle when cold to burn all of the fuel so there is quite a bit of unburned fuel in the exhaust during this warm-up period. Adding the extra fresh air via the secondary air injection pump adds the necessary oxygen to allow this unburned preheated fuel to oxidize in the exhaust before the cats. Once the engine and cats are warmed up it can sustain combustion at a stoich level the secondary air injection pump is switched off because the engine is able to burn nearly all of the fuel that is injected into the cylinder and then the cats deal with any of the unburned fuel/pollutants through catalyzation. Quote:
Please remember that the engine only enters this warm up mode only when the coolant temperature is below a certain specified value. Every time you start the car the secondary air injection pump does not run..... it only runs from a cold start which generally happens when the car is not started for more than 3-6 Hrs during summer months (depending on the outside temperature and the rate at which the engine coolant temperature drops this may be only an hour during the winter).
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04-19-2010, 08:58 AM | #36 |
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i'm pretty sure it does. if i idle for more than a few minutes the idle drops, and the sound of the engine gets much deeper.
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04-19-2010, 10:30 AM | #37 | |
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It dosen't go into a warm-up mode again..... it is more than likely the AC Compressor cycling that makes the idle slow and the the exhaust note deepen. The AC Compressor takes ~7hp to turn, that is not an insignificant load at idle. |
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04-19-2010, 10:33 AM | #38 |
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If you read your manual it actually tells you this
But remember once it is warm and you go over 4000rpm the beast awakens once again.
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04-19-2010, 11:22 AM | #39 |
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It isn't the compressor. This happens with the A/C off.
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04-19-2010, 11:30 AM | #40 |
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Even with the switch in the off position the compressor will still run but is not used for cooling, it functions as a dehumidifier to dry damp air before it enters the cabin. Also the AC runs anytime that the windshield defrost/defog is on.
Pull the fuse for your AC compressor or unplug the clutch on the compressor itself and I guarantee it will no longer do what you are describing. |
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04-20-2010, 02:57 AM | #41 | |
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Being parked in a cramped garage with Remus sport has made me quite familiar with this... |
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04-20-2010, 06:03 AM | #42 |
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could be the alternator, which also has a different draw depending on how many amps it needs to feed into your battery to keep it charged.
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04-20-2010, 04:38 PM | #43 |
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That makes more sense because I don't think the A/C compressor comes on when the whole HVAC system is off.
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04-20-2010, 06:09 PM | #44 | |||
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Hey MBRLVR, please let your car idle until this happens so you can see what we're talking about, and then try to guess what the heck is happening . One thing I can hear is like an exhaust leak, which I know it's not. And just noticed the other day while driving with the window down (rarely happens) it's the same 'leaky' noise when I blip the throttle to rev-match. Maybe it has something to do with that air injection valve, no? It has to be connected to the exhaust, right? We might be getting somewhere . |
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