BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Engine, Transmission, Exhaust, Drivetrain, ECU Software Modifications
 
Mporium BMW
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      10-19-2012, 08:16 PM   #1
Longboarder
Major General
Longboarder's Avatar
3371
Rep
6,763
Posts

Drives: 2016 BMW i8
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Monarch Beach

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
ESS VT2 600 @ 5.0 psi makes 543 RWHP on 91oct

Hey guys, so I returned to the EAS dyno today after installation of the MRF catless x pipe and Akra slip. A week ago with just the blower, I made 521 RWHP at 5.1 psi on 91 octane. Boost seemed low - especially since there was a VF car dyno'ing right after me making 7.9 psi. But power was good so I didn't think anything of it.

Last week's dyno thread here > http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=757829

So today, I made a bit more power. The dyno graph shows my best runs from last week and today. Strangely, I made less boost today. Peak boost was 4.99 psi. We got Roman on the phone and measured the pulley and verified that it is the correct pulley.

We even overlayed my dyno against many other supercharged cars previously dyno'd at EAS. In most cases, the cars made less power but more boost. I guess this is a good problem to have!

Anyway, I will be back to the dyno once again next week with some higher octane gas, which is how I will run at Shift-S3ctor. I need to get some practice in as traction is starting to become an issue in 2nd gear above 7,000 RPM!

Thanks to Tom and Steve at EAS for helping today.
Attached Images
 
__________________
Current BMWs: 2021 X5M, 2012 e92 M3, 2022 X5 40i, 2016 X5 50i
2015 Porsche 991 Turbo S
a couple others
IG: longboarder949; YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT1...eoFBszPIK0gf9w
Appreciate 0
      10-19-2012, 08:31 PM   #2
IMG
IMG's Avatar
United_States
1117
Rep
7,690
Posts

Drives: E36 M3 Track car,Ess E90 M3 DD
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Location

iTrader: (6)

Appreciate 0
      10-19-2012, 08:35 PM   #3
GOLFFRR
GOLFFRR's Avatar
10687
Rep
27,506
Posts

Drives: GOLFFRR cart
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: we sell BMWs to "ALL" US states

iTrader: (4)

awesome buddy! Can't wait to see your runs at shift!
__________________

BEFORE YOU BUY YOUR NEXT BMW, PM ME FIRST WE CAN HOOK YOU UP!
Jimmy Miller:Jimmym@bmwofcamarillo.com Cell:805-509-2048
If you have any issues getting a hold of Jimmy M PLEASE PM me, I'm available everyday till 545pm!
Appreciate 0
      10-19-2012, 08:36 PM   #4
m33
Banned
m33's Avatar
United_States
114
Rep
2,682
Posts

Drives: E92 VT650 MCB Individual
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: CT

iTrader: (5)

Dayumm dats stupid POWa Yo
Appreciate 0
      10-19-2012, 09:36 PM   #5
GIdriver
Major
GIdriver's Avatar
United_States
68
Rep
1,359
Posts

Drives: 2014 E63 AMG-S
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Somewhere in Time

iTrader: (0)

Awesome!! Nice numbers!!
__________________
2014 E63 AMG-S
2012 C63 AMG (P31) - gone
2011 E90 M3 FBO - gone
Appreciate 0
      10-19-2012, 09:50 PM   #6
JDM3
Major
JDM3's Avatar
109
Rep
1,292
Posts

Drives: 2009 M3 E92
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Long Valley, NJ

iTrader: (7)

Nice !!
Appreciate 0
      10-20-2012, 07:11 AM   #7
pbonsalb
Lieutenant General
5152
Rep
10,532
Posts

Drives: 18 F90 M5, 99 E36 M3 Turbo
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: New England

iTrader: (4)

You can make a little more or less boost just depending on atmospheric conditions. The blower spins at a fixed rpm, unlike a turbo, so it has zero adjustability. It can only compress what it gets, and what it gets is more or less dense depending on temperature and humidity.

The catless x-pipe reduces the restriction through the motor. This is why it adds power. On a boosted motor, boost is a measure of the restriction through the motor. Take the cork out of the backside and boost drops on a supercharged engine. Again, boost is fixed by the blower belt drive and has zero adjustability, unlike a turbo that will simply spool more or less fast to make the boost set by the wastegate.

Now raise the boost to ESS' specifications and you should see more power. However, I would first want to know why my installation made less boost than boost on identical kits on supposedly identical cars. There could be belt slip or a boost leak. Sometimes it is just a bad boost gauge, so I would want to check that as well against another reference.
Appreciate 0
      10-20-2012, 07:15 AM   #8
flipm3
E46 + E90 + F80
192
Rep
2,894
Posts

Drives: E46 + E90 + F80
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Illinois

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2009 BMW M3  [0.00]
2002 BMW M3  [0.00]
Thanks for sharing further documentation of your modding progress.

Once again proving that our stock full exhaust system pretty much sucks...hahaha

Enjoy the car and stay safe out there!

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
You can make a little more or less boost just depending on atmospheric conditions. The blower spins at a fixed rpm, unlike a turbo, so it has zero adjustability. It can only compress what it gets, and what it gets is more or less dense depending on temperature and humidity.

The catless x-pipe reduces the restriction through the motor. This is why it adds power. On a boosted motor, boost is a measure of the restriction through the motor. Take the cork out of the backside and boost drops on a supercharged engine. Again, boost is fixed by the blower belt drive and has zero adjustability, unlike a turbo that will simply spool more or less fast to make the boost set by the wastegate.

Now raise the boost to ESS' specifications and you should see more power. However, I would first want to know why my installation made less boost than boost on identical kits on supposedly identical cars. There could be belt slip or a boost leak. Sometimes it is just a bad boost gauge, so I would want to check that as well against another reference.
As always, great information! Couldn't have said it any better myself!
__________________
F80 M3 DCT|Alpine White . Black Leather | My Build Thread
E90 M3 DCT|Melbourne Red . Speed Cloth | My Build Thread
E46 M3 6MT|Jet Black . Black Nappa Leather | My Build Thread
Appreciate 0
      10-20-2012, 09:06 AM   #9
Longboarder
Major General
Longboarder's Avatar
3371
Rep
6,763
Posts

Drives: 2016 BMW i8
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Monarch Beach

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by img View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by GOLFFRR View Post
awesome buddy! Can't wait to see your runs at shift!
Quote:
Originally Posted by m33 View Post
Dayumm dats stupid POWa Yo
Quote:
Originally Posted by GIdriver View Post
Awesome!! Nice numbers!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1SICKM View Post
Nice !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by flipm3 View Post
Thanks for sharing further documentation of your modding progress.

Once again proving that our stock full exhaust system pretty much sucks...hahaha

Enjoy the car and stay safe out there!
Thanks guys. This is getting fun! I'm no where near done with the modding and it's already making good power. I was originally planning on maxing out somewhere at 575 RWHP with higher boost, meth, etc...and I think that's definitely achievable.
__________________
Current BMWs: 2021 X5M, 2012 e92 M3, 2022 X5 40i, 2016 X5 50i
2015 Porsche 991 Turbo S
a couple others
IG: longboarder949; YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT1...eoFBszPIK0gf9w
Appreciate 0
      10-20-2012, 09:13 AM   #10
Longboarder
Major General
Longboarder's Avatar
3371
Rep
6,763
Posts

Drives: 2016 BMW i8
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Monarch Beach

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
You can make a little more or less boost just depending on atmospheric conditions. The blower spins at a fixed rpm, unlike a turbo, so it has zero adjustability. It can only compress what it gets, and what it gets is more or less dense depending on temperature and humidity.

The catless x-pipe reduces the restriction through the motor. This is why it adds power. On a boosted motor, boost is a measure of the restriction through the motor. Take the cork out of the backside and boost drops on a supercharged engine. Again, boost is fixed by the blower belt drive and has zero adjustability, unlike a turbo that will simply spool more or less fast to make the boost set by the wastegate.

Now raise the boost to ESS' specifications and you should see more power. However, I would first want to know why my installation made less boost than boost on identical kits on supposedly identical cars. There could be belt slip or a boost leak. Sometimes it is just a bad boost gauge, so I would want to check that as well against another reference.
Yesterday at EAS we double-checked for any boost leaks (none), blower belt slippage (none out of the ordinary) and pulley (correct one for 600 kit). Boost was also constant (4.9 to 5.1 psi) from my run a week ago where it was around 65 degrees compared with 80 yesterday (I made a little less boost yesterday).

EAS is also measuring boost @ the vacuum line like they do with all other supercharged M3's. They have dyno'd quite a few and so Steve@EAS was overlaying my dyno with others. Most others with the ESS 600 or VF 620 were 6-8 psi. Strangely, I made more power than most of these higher boost cars, which is why I'm not overly concerned. I have no idea why, but perhaps my car is just flowing better.
__________________
Current BMWs: 2021 X5M, 2012 e92 M3, 2022 X5 40i, 2016 X5 50i
2015 Porsche 991 Turbo S
a couple others
IG: longboarder949; YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT1...eoFBszPIK0gf9w
Appreciate 0
      10-20-2012, 02:21 PM   #11
Longboarder
Major General
Longboarder's Avatar
3371
Rep
6,763
Posts

Drives: 2016 BMW i8
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Monarch Beach

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
Here's my air/fuel ratio and boost. Ignore the spike at the end upon throttle closure. Not even making 5psi peak. Feels great...no boost leaks...correct pulley...hmmm.......

EAS has a mechanical boost guage and so I'm going to ask them to hook it up on the next dyno session to verify.
Attached Images
 
__________________
Current BMWs: 2021 X5M, 2012 e92 M3, 2022 X5 40i, 2016 X5 50i
2015 Porsche 991 Turbo S
a couple others
IG: longboarder949; YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT1...eoFBszPIK0gf9w
Appreciate 0
      10-20-2012, 05:18 PM   #12
DLSJ5
Brigadier General
DLSJ5's Avatar
United_States
501
Rep
4,033
Posts

Drives: 2016 F82 M4 ZCP
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: CA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
You can make a little more or less boost just depending on atmospheric conditions. The blower spins at a fixed rpm, unlike a turbo, so it has zero adjustability. It can only compress what it gets, and what it gets is more or less dense depending on temperature and humidity.

The catless x-pipe reduces the restriction through the motor. This is why it adds power. On a boosted motor, boost is a measure of the restriction through the motor. Take the cork out of the backside and boost drops on a supercharged engine. Again, boost is fixed by the blower belt drive and has zero adjustability, unlike a turbo that will simply spool more or less fast to make the boost set by the wastegate.

Now raise the boost to ESS' specifications and you should see more power. However, I would first want to know why my installation made less boost than boost on identical kits on supposedly identical cars. There could be belt slip or a boost leak. Sometimes it is just a bad boost gauge, so I would want to check that as well against another reference.
Good post, and I agree your posts are very informative, smart, realistic and thought out.

Joe at Trinity did not see his boost go lower when he added a catless Xpipe vs. the stock cats, in fact I think his boost increased almost 1 psi ~6.8 to ~7.8psi when he went catless, so I'm not sure that theory always applies, although the dyno's were not done on the same day, so conditions could be a factor as well. FWIW I didn't see a change either when I went catless.


Good work Adam, why not go VT625 for the event?
__________________
16 F82 M4 DCT - ZCP - JB4 - 556WHP / 570WTQ
08 E92 M3 DCT - Bolt Ons - 60-130MPH 10.71s - 11.88 @ 118MPH - 377WHP
ESS VT2-625 SC 60-130MPH 6.80s - 11.30 @ 129.3 MPH 586WHP / 379WTQ
ESS VT3-750 - 60-130MPH 6.14s - 10.81 @ 135.13 MPH 690WHP/463WTQ
Shift-S3ctor E92 M3 - 1/2 Mile Trap Speed WR - 174.13 MPH
Appreciate 0
      10-20-2012, 05:44 PM   #13
Longboarder
Major General
Longboarder's Avatar
3371
Rep
6,763
Posts

Drives: 2016 BMW i8
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Monarch Beach

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by DLSJ5 View Post
Good work Adam, why not go VT625 for the event?
I inquired about a 625 pulley upgrade and it's doable with my kit since I have the white/gray injectors, but I'm not sure I want to void my ESS warranty just yet. I want to run it hard at the Airstrip and then a track event to make sure everything is good first.
__________________
Current BMWs: 2021 X5M, 2012 e92 M3, 2022 X5 40i, 2016 X5 50i
2015 Porsche 991 Turbo S
a couple others
IG: longboarder949; YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT1...eoFBszPIK0gf9w
Appreciate 0
      10-21-2012, 12:57 AM   #14
CarbonFoot
Lieutenant
CarbonFoot's Avatar
37
Rep
421
Posts

Drives: 2024 M3 CS
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: CA - Bay Area

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
On a boosted motor, boost is a measure of the restriction through the motor. Take the cork out of the backside and boost drops on a supercharged engine.
Can you expand on this statement? I don't see a strong correlation between boost pressure and exhaust restriction. While, of course, a high flowing intake and exhaust should be well matched to produce good power, I see them as separate functions.

As I see it; when boost is created, it pressurizes against a closed exhaust valve during the intake stroke. During the exhaust stroke the intake valves remain closed until just past TDC. I can't imagine a lot of blow-by is occurring in the cylinders under boost, where the supercharger is pressurizing against a restrictive exhaust. Exhaust pressure is generated by the compressive force of the exhaust stroke and not the intake system.

That being said, I don't see how uncorking the exhaust will lower boost.

Please correct me if I'm wrong as I don't know much about actions of vanos and the resultant effects it may have on this.
Appreciate 0
      10-21-2012, 02:17 AM   #15
tryingtobebest
First Lieutenant
Canada
86
Rep
369
Posts

Drives: E90
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Calgary, Ab

iTrader: (3)

This is sick!)))
Appreciate 0
      10-21-2012, 10:57 AM   #16
flipm3
E46 + E90 + F80
192
Rep
2,894
Posts

Drives: E46 + E90 + F80
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Illinois

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2009 BMW M3  [0.00]
2002 BMW M3  [0.00]
If you don't mind, could you post SAE and Conditions as well? Great documentation thus from in a step-wise fashion!

Hopefully you got a chance to enjoy all the power this weekend! Keep us posted on your next stage!
__________________
F80 M3 DCT|Alpine White . Black Leather | My Build Thread
E90 M3 DCT|Melbourne Red . Speed Cloth | My Build Thread
E46 M3 6MT|Jet Black . Black Nappa Leather | My Build Thread
Appreciate 0
      10-23-2012, 01:59 AM   #17
biglare
Bulldog
biglare's Avatar
United_States
482
Rep
3,355
Posts

Drives: BMW & Porsche
Join Date: May 2008
Location: ?

iTrader: (3)

Congrats on the powa!

Time to invest in some sticky rubber!
__________________
Prev: Individual F80 M3 - Fjord Blue/Silverstone(interior) | Fashion Grey(exterior)

GTS
Appreciate 0
      10-23-2012, 02:34 AM   #18
datbimmerdoe
Lieutenant General
datbimmerdoe's Avatar
United_States
1265
Rep
17,493
Posts

Drives: like I'M BOUT THAT LIFE
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: PARADISE aka CANES COUNTRY

iTrader: (0)

great #s, enjoy!
__________________
#datbimmerdoe #thatbimmertho

FOLLOW @datbimmerdoe on INSTAGRAM
Appreciate 0
      10-23-2012, 06:06 AM   #19
pbonsalb
Lieutenant General
5152
Rep
10,532
Posts

Drives: 18 F90 M5, 99 E36 M3 Turbo
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: New England

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarbonFoot View Post
Can you expand on this statement? I don't see a strong correlation between boost pressure and exhaust restriction. While, of course, a high flowing intake and exhaust should be well matched to produce good power, I see them as separate functions.

As I see it; when boost is created, it pressurizes against a closed exhaust valve during the intake stroke. During the exhaust stroke the intake valves remain closed until just past TDC. I can't imagine a lot of blow-by is occurring in the cylinders under boost, where the supercharger is pressurizing against a restrictive exhaust. Exhaust pressure is generated by the compressive force of the exhaust stroke and not the intake system.

That being said, I don't see how uncorking the exhaust will lower boost.

Please correct me if I'm wrong as I don't know much about actions of vanos and the resultant effects it may have on this.
The improved exhaust in effect increases engine VE. If the engine can pass more air, it passes more of what the blower feeds it. The blower drive is fixed by the pulley so there is zero compensation. The engine now can use more air but the blower won't provide it. Not as much air is backing up in the intake against the blower driving it, so boost drops.

There is overlap, especially on an 8000 rpm motor, even with dual vanos. But I am not sure that is the full explanation for the effect. Let's say you plop a fully ported big valve head on there that flows 15% more air, and the valves work to the theoretical perfection you propose and the exhaust or intake are either entirely open or entirely closed but never both open at the same time. The engine will process more of what the blower sends to it. To maintain the same boost, you would have to increase blower output by 15%. The boost is measured in the intake, and the engine just gulped up 15% more of what was in the intake so there is less pressure there.
Appreciate 0
      10-23-2012, 01:11 PM   #20
info@trinityautosport
United_States
278
Rep
7,518
Posts

Drives: F13 M6
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Anaheim, CA

iTrader: (0)

good meeting you =)
Appreciate 0
      10-23-2012, 04:25 PM   #21
joe@trinityautosport
joe@trinityautosport's Avatar
United_States
210
Rep
1,385
Posts

Drives: E92 M3 | F10 M5
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Anaheim, CA

iTrader: (10)

Very nice! How do you like the sound of the exhaust now?
Appreciate 0
      10-23-2012, 04:33 PM   #22
positiveions
Lieutenant General
positiveions's Avatar
Lebanon
961
Rep
11,722
Posts

Drives: 19 Tacoma, 16 Golf wagon
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Upland, CA

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
Numbers are looking good.
Do us a big favor, don't embarrass us out there . Keep it cool, and drive safe.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:36 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST