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      10-23-2017, 04:02 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Catholics aren't Christians? That is gonna be news to a lot of people.
Ugh, we've had this discussion before (not you specifically, but in this forum). Can Catholics be Christian? Yes, but not all Catholics are Christians, and not all Christians are Catholics. They have fundamentally different beliefs and even different Bibles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19
That is precisely what you said. You are even proving how hard it would be for society to decide on which religions laws it is ok to deny people service on. A lot of people interpret the religious stories differently. So again see how this could get messy really fast instead of just serving everybody regardless of beliefs?
No it isn't, and you're making this more complicated than it needs to be.

Deny service based on WHO the customer is - not ok.

Deny service based on the participation of the service provider in an event they disagree with - perfectly fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19
I actually never voted for Obama, but if you can't tell which side is divisive in this scenario I don't know what to say. You are just letting you beliefs and emotions overcome rational thought.
I would argue that you're letting your contempt for Christians override your ability to respect differing viewpoints.

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Originally Posted by minn19
Oh we would've heard about plenty............
You keep telling yourself that.
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      10-23-2017, 04:11 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by fravel View Post
Ugh, we've had this discussion before (not you specifically, but in this forum). Can Catholics be Christian? Yes, but not all Catholics are Christians, and not all Christians are Catholics. They have fundamentally different beliefs and even different Bibles.



No it isn't, and you're making this more complicated than it needs to be.

Deny service based on WHO the customer is - not ok.

Deny service based on the participation of the service provider in an event they disagree with - perfectly fine.



I would argue that you're letting your contempt for Christians override your ability to respect differing viewpoints.



You keep telling yourself that.
I'm making it complicated? I asked you about my Muslim and Atheist examples and you said you would be ok with that based on something along the lines if it really said that in their religion. I think that was a lot of posts ago.

You can't separate the two. You are not denying an event. There is no event without the people so you are denying the people service.

I'll make this easy.

Society A: A street full of businesses that I can walk into without any thought to which one I can go into based on religious beliefs etc. I go along minding my own business as do the store owners and everybody gets what they need with no fuss.

Society B: The same street, but with a bunch more businesses to accommodate everybody's belief systems and you have to keep straight (no pun intended) as to which serves who. Probably easier if you are local, but a PIA if you are not from the area.

Which is less divisive and which society would you rather live in? I'm solidly in the A society camp.

Edit: A non white guy following a white kid in a vehicle and then getting out on front and following him.....then the same events ensuing, yeah we would've heard about it.
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      10-23-2017, 04:18 PM   #399
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fravel View Post


Is this actually a question or is it supposed to be a statement?
Both. You have no counter for it.


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Originally Posted by fravel View Post

Sure he didn't.

"If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon" -Barack Obama.

Sure, Trayvon was innocent - right up until he returned to the scene and began assaulting Zimmerman. He was not attacked, unless having someone walk on the sidewalk behind you while talking on a cell phone constitutes an attack.
The gall of Obama, to say that if he had a son, he would be black! How DARE he.

And now that we have gotten past how ridiculous that fox news talking point was, we can address:

"returning to the scene" which occurred right behind him while a stranger may or may not have engaged him? I'm not arguing if Zimmerman was "guilty" of murder, which was already decided by his peers. I am arguing that Trayvon was stalked/pursued/harassed because he was brown.

Get the fuck out of here with the rest of your bullshit though, as if Obama chose to have the media politicize this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fravel View Post
No it's not, infrastructure benefits society as a whole. Welfare doesn't.
They are literally the same thing. You are the one trying to distinguish between the two (and realistically you can't, but I'll enjoy seeing you struggle to do so) And yes, they benefit society as a whole.

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Originally Posted by fravel View Post
You also don't see me starting a business anywhere else, funny how that works.
Sucks to suck, right? So how much about this subject do you really know?


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Originally Posted by fravel View Post
No, they didn't. Bush removed ~5,000,000 more people. Clinton removed ~7,000,000.
That's not what I asked.

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Originally Posted by fravel View Post
Never said I had all the answers, also never said those issues didn't exist before Obama. What I have said is that during his tenure those issues were magnified and he was either A) complicit in magnifying them or B) absent in correcting them.
Bold - then why are you talking and criticizing those who tried?
Complacent in magnifying them HOW? If you can't explain how you can fix the issue, how are you going accuse him of making it worse?

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Originally Posted by fravel View Post

The Trump presidency is feeling (and perhaps was also fueled by) the effects of that.
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      10-23-2017, 04:18 PM   #400
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If you wanna go down the 'born this way' route, that's fine, I just see that as being their cross to bear. I'm straight, but I'm still expected to abstain from extramarital relations with women, failing to do so is no more or less of a sin than homosexuality.

You're high if you think Jesus would have participated in their sin.



Which one?
The one where i tell you in my eloquent way that humans are built go have sex and denying sex from straight, gay or Christian population is cruel if it's between legal and willing partners. I can quote a song again too or just list ways it should be had often and thoroughly.
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I just love how I can derail all of your intellectual conversations for a short time with a one liner about bags of dicks
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      10-23-2017, 04:25 PM   #401
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
I'm not saying he would've joined in on a threesome, but I think he would've dealt with a lot different than current contemporary religious thought.
I'm not trying to claim that many (most) modern Christians deal with homosexuality correctly, as I actually agree with you there. Having said that though, Jesus would have certainly regarded modern sin the same way he did - consider the story of the woman accused of adultery.

"Go now and leave your life of sin." (John 8:11)

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Originally Posted by are0lies View Post
I disagree. The ones Jesus rebuked the most were the very religious ones. The rest, he, in essence encouraged that they follow him, without much condemnation. Basically the demand was that a person had to deny himself, to follow him. Correction is something you do when someone is already following, and needs correction as to guidance. Wouldn't you suppose that pretty much all the types of people that are around today, were around then? If you remember, he really did not meddle in day-to-day lives, although I realize that his mission was not to do so.
I'm not sure I follow what you're getting at. What do you disagree with?

Quote:
Originally Posted by are0lies
As far as the gay couple, the bakers may not have had their sign that acknowledges them the right to refuse service to anyone. I see them a lot here in California.
No clue, does Colorado even require it or is it implied?
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      10-23-2017, 04:43 PM   #402
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Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
I'm making it complicated? I asked you about my Muslim and Atheist examples and you said you would be ok with that based on something along the lines if it really said that in their religion. I think that was a lot of posts ago.
What's complicated about that? If there's a passage in the Quran that says something about traveling with alcohol then who am I to tell a Muslim man that he has to disobey the tenets of his faith so as to not inconvenience me?

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19
You can't separate the two. You are not denying an event. There is no event without the people so you are denying the people service.
Sure you can, I explained it before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19
I'll make this easy.

Society A: A street full of businesses that I can walk into without any thought to which one I can go into based on religious beliefs etc. I go along minding my own business as do the store owners and everybody gets what they need with no fuss.

Society B: The same street, but with a bunch more businesses to accommodate everybody's belief systems and you have to keep straight (no pun intended) as to which serves who. Probably easier if you are local, but a PIA if you are not from the area.

Which is less divisive and which society would you rather live in? I'm solidly in the A society camp.
This is a different scenario than what we are talking about. I'm not advocating for Christian businesses to be able to put up signs that say "No Gay People" or for white-owned businesses to deny service to black people simply on the basis of being black.

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19
Edit: A non white guy following a white kid in a vehicle and then getting out on front and following him.....then the same events ensuing, yeah we would've heard about it.
Interesting - the only time Zimmerman is a non-white guy is when he's following a white kid. Telling.

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Originally Posted by TheAxiom View Post
Both. You have no counter for it.
Well yeah, it's hard to respond to gibberish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAxiom
"returning to the scene" which occurred right behind him while a stranger may or may not have engaged him? I'm not arguing if Zimmerman was "guilty" of murder, which was already decided by his peers. I am arguing that Trayvon was stalked/pursued/harassed because he was brown.
Martin was an unknown person walking through a community that had recently experienced a string of burglaries. He (by his own words) fled the scene and was free-and-clear, then somehow he ended up dead. Trayvon was an athletic 17-year old, Zimmerman was an overweight middle-aged dude. The only way they came back in contact was for Martin to have returned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAxiom
Get the fuck out of here with the rest of your bullshit though, as if Obama chose to have the media politicize this.
He sure didn't discourage it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAxiom
They are literally the same thing. You are the one trying to distinguish between the two (and realistically you can't, but I'll enjoy seeing you struggle to do so) And yes, they benefit society as a whole.
I'm still trying to figure out what this has to do with anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAxiom
Sucks to suck, right? So how much about this subject do you really know?
Again, what does my interest in opening a business have to do with anything?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAxiom
That's not what I asked.
Of course it isn't. "What you asked" is an ever moving goalpost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAxiom
Bold - then why are you talking and criticizing those who tried?
Complacent in magnifying them HOW? If you can't explain how you can fix the issue, how are you going accuse him of making it worse?
Cause I'm a citizen and this is a forum for expressing such opinions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lups View Post
The one where i tell you in my eloquent way that humans are built go have sex and denying sex from straight, gay or Christian population is cruel if it's between legal and willing partners. I can quote a song again too or just list ways it should be had often and thoroughly.
Hey, I don't make the rules, I just follow them. By the way, what about incest?
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      10-23-2017, 04:45 PM   #403
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Originally Posted by are0lies View Post
As far as the gay couple, the bakers may not have had their sign that acknowledges them the right to refuse service to anyone. I see them a lot here in California.
Those signs aren't a magic shield against discrimination claims in California.

While I was in school, I worked for a lawyer who was a real jerk. Every new employee got the same assignment: research possible grounds for a lawsuit against a restaurant that had banned him.

The conclusion was always the same: if the ban was based on a protected characteristic, that would be grounds for a lawsuit... but a business can throw out an asshole, as long as it isn't motivated by prohibited discrimination.
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      10-23-2017, 05:28 PM   #404
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Hey, I don't make the rules, I just follow them. By the way, what about incest?
I think i mentioned legal. For that there are actual concerns


Damn, you took the high road. I had a list again ready to go.
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I just love how I can derail all of your intellectual conversations for a short time with a one liner about bags of dicks
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      10-23-2017, 06:02 PM   #405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fravel View Post
What's complicated about that? If there's a passage in the Quran that says something about traveling with alcohol then who am I to tell a Muslim man that he has to disobey the tenets of his faith so as to not inconvenience me?



Sure you can, I explained it before.



This is a different scenario than what we are talking about. I'm not advocating for Christian businesses to be able to put up signs that say "No Gay People" or for white-owned businesses to deny service to black people simply on the basis of being black.
And I showed how they can't be separated.

You are advocating for people to refuse service based on their religious views.

So if the gay couple sent somebody to pick up the cake from the business that would be ok?

How about a pharmacist that doesn't believe in contraception because of their religious beliefs. Should they not have to?
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      10-23-2017, 06:14 PM   #406
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Originally Posted by rlmesq View Post
Those signs aren't a magic shield against discrimination claims in California.

While I was in school, I worked for a lawyer who was a real jerk. Every new employee got the same assignment: research possible grounds for a lawsuit against a restaurant that had banned him.

The conclusion was always the same: if the ban was based on a protected characteristic, that would be grounds for a lawsuit... but a business can throw out an asshole, as long as it isn't motivated by prohibited discrimination.
Good point, and thanks for clarifying that.
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      10-23-2017, 10:40 PM   #407
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Obviously McCain can't stand trump, and is letting loose on him. The heading reads: "John McCain mocks Donald Trump’s deferment ‘bone spurs’ (without naming him)." He made his feelings known when he had the deciding vote in the repealing of ACA. It seems that McCain, knowing his political (and perhaps personal) days are numbered, he is not going to hold back. Disrespecting those in the armed forces is bad enough, but doing that to a former POW is on another level.
Thanks - I get it now. I certainly don't think it's acceptable to disrespect a service member/POW, but if McCain is going to bring up someone else's service deferment or whatever, then he is somewhat making himself fair game. Additionally, McCain has run on his war record - again, making himself fair game.

I respect McCain for his service, but can't stand him as a politician. He's the worst of the worst...
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      10-23-2017, 10:51 PM   #408
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When ever M-K wakes up and tries to hand his usual "you sir win the internet today" thingy award to someone, please inform him I already awarded you with it.

It's two am here, porn and sanders were put to one sentence. I am not perverted enough to see them in a sentence so i wanted proof.

I will never, ever forget that clip. Well played Shakira.
Hey! No usurping the award presentation!! You are about to be deemed forever ineligible if this keeps up. The is BP OT and anarchy is not allowed!!
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Hell, I get random sausage attacks when I go anywhere.
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      10-23-2017, 11:07 PM   #409
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Yeah, they pretty much did and kept him in power.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_I..._d%27%C3%A9tat



It's not that hard to figure out he is calling Trump the self proclaimed greatest patriot ever a draft dodger.

So taking a knee is disrespecting the country, but using your family's wealth and connections to keep you out of a war is perfectly ok apparently. According to Trump anyway.
Nope. CIA was more of a bystander:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/the-my...rticle/2008838

http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...josh-gelernter


And I thought McCain was talking about Bill Clinton?
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      10-23-2017, 11:54 PM   #410
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So... The British intervention wasn't the easiest, but what would have been a "better" way to change the existing culture? Especially if they hadn't already done it themselves?

The CIA didn't install the Shah - you might want to review that. And you're blaming the rise of the Mullah government on US intervention? Not even sure what to say about that...
The CIA didn't install the SHAH? You might wanna check Madeline Albrights apology about that a few months ago.

28 years of PAHLAVI kingdom stealing the people's wealth and filling Evin prison with political prisoners sure had something to fo with the rise of Mullahs.

You might wanna read up on that..
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      10-23-2017, 11:57 PM   #411
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Nope. CIA was more of a bystander:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/the-my...rticle/2008838

http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...josh-gelernter


And I thought McCain was talking about Bill Clinton?
Bystander. Iran became the largest purchaser of US made arms in the Middle East. Most US oil companies started to refine irans oil and sell it abroad eaving the Iranian people with little to no money.

Have a good night
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      10-24-2017, 01:37 AM   #412
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Ugh, we've had this discussion before (not you specifically, but in this forum). Can Catholics be Christian? Yes, but not all Catholics are Christians, and not all Christians are Catholics. They have fundamentally different beliefs and even different Bibles.
Wait, what? Citations please.

Are all Christians Catholic? No.
Are all Catholics Christian? Yes, by definition. I've been wrong before, but I'm pretty sure the Son in “The Father and the Son actively spirate the Holy Spirit" is none other than the Jesus Christ.

Catholicism is a type of Christianity. Sure, they may differ in beliefs (The Catholics believe their church is empowered to make up its own rules which are automatically endorsed by God)... so much so that they've fought bitter and bloody wars about it ...but the Catholic Bible is the same one used by all other Christian denominations.

It's just like how the Muslims, Christians and Jews all worship the same God.
The god of Abraham.
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      10-24-2017, 01:50 AM   #413
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Originally Posted by xQx View Post
Wait, what? Citations please.

Are all Christians Catholic? No.
Are all Catholics Christian? Yes, by definition. I've been wrong before, but I'm pretty sure the Son in “The Father and the Son actively spirate the Holy Spirit" is none other than the Jesus Christ.

Catholicism is a type of Christianity. Sure, they may differ in beliefs (The Catholics believe their church is empowered to make up its own rules which are automatically endorsed by God)... so much so that they've fought bitter and bloody wars about it ...but the Catholic Bible is the same one used by all other Christian denominations.

It's just like how the Muslims, Christians and Jews all worship the same God.
The god of Abraham.
This is a forum where we also have to debate if gay folks should have sex.

Be warned, this conversation will not probably go the way you thought it would.
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I just love how I can derail all of your intellectual conversations for a short time with a one liner about bags of dicks
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      10-24-2017, 02:23 AM   #414
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This is a forum where we also have to debate if gay folks should have sex.

Be warned, this conversation will not probably go the way you thought it would.
Hahah, It's okay, I'm Australian. We're currently having a non-binding plebiscite to debate if gay folks should marry... and thus a public debate about if that will mean that primary school teachers will be forced to teach our impressionable children about gender fluidity, polygamy and bestiality.

My views on the subject are best summed up by 1 Corinthians 14:34
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      10-24-2017, 02:33 AM   #415
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Hahah, It's okay, I'm Australian. We're currently having a non-binding plebiscite to debate if gay folks should marry... and thus a public debate about if that will mean that primary school teachers will be forced to teach our impressionable children about gender fluidity, polygamy and bestiality.

My views on the subject are best summed up by 1 Corinthians 14:34
Well there is that!

We all agree those bitches should be silenced. I'm not sure how those gay folks go with beastiality but i did watch a clip of a chicken being molested by a dog today!

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      10-24-2017, 05:20 AM   #416
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Originally Posted by xQx View Post
Catholicism is a type of Christianity. Sure, they may differ in beliefs (The Catholics believe their church is empowered to make up its own rules which are automatically endorsed by God)... so much so that they've fought bitter and bloody wars about it ...but the Catholic Bible is the same one used by all other Christian denominations.

It's just like how the Muslims, Christians and Jews all worship the same God.
The god of Abraham.
The evangelicals make up their own rules, too, and believe they're empowered to decide who's really a Christian. The Catholics can't be Christians because of all the saints and statues, which make them idolaters.... and don't get them started on the Mormons.

Speaking of Mormons... why do so many other Christian denominations think they're kooks, with Joseph Smith's story of the angel Moroni and the golden plates, while at the same time accepting everything Saul/Paul (who, like Smith, never met Jesus and based all of his claims on a vision that nobody else saw) wrote as holy scripture?

The only differences between a cult and a legitimate religion are money and political power.
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      10-24-2017, 09:22 AM   #417
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Nope. CIA was more of a bystander:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/the-my...rticle/2008838

http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...josh-gelernter


And I thought McCain was talking about Bill Clinton?
Could've been both and CIA wasn't just a bystander in Iran. That is funny.
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      10-24-2017, 10:51 AM   #418
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lups View Post
I think i mentioned legal. For that there are actual concerns


Damn, you took the high road. I had a list again ready to go.
I mean, there was a point in time where homosexuality was illegal, hell, there was a point in time that anything other than the missionary position was illegal - laws can change.

Assuming an incestual relationship doesn't result in procreation (like homosexuality) and it's between two consenting adults, what's the problem? I'm just using your argument here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
And I showed how they can't be separated.

You are advocating for people to refuse service based on their religious views.
So for the umpteenth time, that's not what I'm advocating. I'm advocating for an individual to not be forced to participate in an event which they have religious objections to. I've repeatedly stated that I think it would be wrong for a Christian baker to flat out refuse to sell a cake to a gay man simply on the basis of the buyer being gay. These are two different concepts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19
So if the gay couple sent somebody to pick up the cake from the business that would be ok?
You're still not getting it - the baker wasn't refusing to sell a cake to a gay man, they were refusing to make a cake for a gay wedding. It wouldn't matter who was picking it up, the baker wasn't gonna make a wedding cake that said "Congrats Jeff and Dave!" with two dudes at the top of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19
How about a pharmacist that doesn't believe in contraception because of their religious beliefs. Should they not have to?
No, and in fact they don't. My girlfriend's uncle actually went through that - he objects to providing BC, his employer mandated it; so he quit and opened his own pharmacy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xQx View Post
Wait, what? Citations please.

Are all Christians Catholic? No.
Are all Catholics Christian? Yes, by definition. I've been wrong before, but I'm pretty sure the Son in “The Father and the Son actively spirate the Holy Spirit" is none other than the Jesus Christ.
Catholicism also deifies Mary and subscribes to the idea of salvation through works (don't give the church enough money? Not going to heaven, purgatory for you.) Christianity subscribes to the idea of salvation through grace, period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xQx
Catholicism is a type of Christianity. Sure, they may differ in beliefs (The Catholics believe their church is empowered to make up its own rules which are automatically endorsed by God)... so much so that they've fought bitter and bloody wars about it ...but the Catholic Bible is the same one used by all other Christian denominations.
Catholic Bible has a full 7 extra books in it. Note I'm not claiming to have any authority to tell you which version is more correct, but they are different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xQx
It's just like how the Muslims, Christians and Jews all worship the same God.
The god of Abraham.
No they don't. Islam flat out refuses the Trinity and considers Jesus to be little more than a prophet. Judaism refuses the idea that Jesus was the Messiah.

http://adam4d.com/christians-muslims/

http://adam4d.com/christians-jews/
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Last edited by fravel; 10-24-2017 at 10:59 AM.
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