Is is worth driving a CTS-V, C63 AMG, or IS-F before pulling the trigger on an M3?

[sehrgut]

Only cars worth buying of those three is either the c63 or the m3. Its all preference, getting the m3 was an easy one for me. I literally like everything about my dct m3 so far, and its kinda special to. its bmw's pride and glory. Getting the c63 its like....yeah another AMG. But its all up to you!

[MistaVauros]

I'm convinced that the C63 is not special. It is a sedan with a big V8 and lots of torque. The interior is horrendous compared to the M3 and, as stated everywhere in this forum, it doesn't handle as well. Remember, the ///M Division's philosophy is to: Make the chassis faster than the engine. Nuff said.

On another note, I'm starting to feel that I'll probably keep buying ///M cars for the rest of my life, assuming the ///M Division keeps producing great cars. However, I am starting to worry some, because here in the U.S. the typical buyer is starting to care less about performance and race pedigree, and more about technology, ease of use, and creature comforts. If this trend starts to dominate the marketplace, then car manufacturers are going to focus more on meeting that demand (which will equate to bland, uninspired sports cars) -

[Neon01]

Decided not to drive the Caddy or the Lexus, just based on what I've read, I don't think they're for me. I wrote the GT-R, 911, and Cayman off my list from the start since I need 4 seats (and preferably 4 doors).

I did test drive the AMG last night though. Nice car actually, I was more impressed than I thought I was going to be. Handling didn't seem that great though, seemed a little like a big car with a really good suspension. I could the spring rates were high, but the dynamics of the car just weren't there.

The V8 engine sounded nice - though not as nice as the S65, IMO - and offered nice low-end torque, but seemed to run out of steam after about 5k rpm. I felt little desire to run out the gears other than for the sound of the engine.

The interior was very nice, with great seats and good ergonomic controls (I liked all the useful buttons on the center console), but it didn't overly impress me. I hated the fact that a new nav destination couldn't be entered while moving.

What really killed it for me was the transmission. Even in manual mode it actually felt a LOT slower than my ZF-made auto 6 speed in the 335i. Shifts were NOT crisp and took a lot longer than I had hoped. Certainly to the point where I knew I was driving an automatic. The lockup torque converter didn't spend nearly enough time in lockup condition, either, because it's mannerisms were of a typical automatic a good deal of the time. If I'm in true manual mode, I like to feel the drivetrain lash when I let off the throttle under acceleration in 1,2, or 3 gear. The M-DCT is just perfect.

So I guess that answers that. Like you all said, I'm glad I drove one though. Would have wondered if not.

[Kyoshi71]

IS-F Blows. I love the MB (however, not that much ) and I think the Caddu is amazing. It's a tough call but I would pull the trigger on the M3. We all did!! And we're happy enough with it that, rather than work when we're at work, we jerk the computer off talking about these things

Get it, you'll be happy you did.

[JCtx]

Originally Posted by Neon01

Shifts were NOT crisp and took a lot longer than I had hoped. The lockup torque converter didn't spend nearly enough time in lockup condition

There's no torque converter on the C63 AMG man . I haven't driven or owned one (not interested), but that tranny is supposed to have the best of both worlds: It uses a wet-clutch pack (just like DCTs) for DCT-quick shifts, but with the reliability of planetary gears, like most auto trannies. Guess at least the first claim is bogus then .

[Mahmood07]

Originally Posted by elp_jc

There's no torque converter on the C63 AMG man . I haven't driven or owned one (not interested), but that tranny is supposed to have the best of both worlds: It uses a wet-clutch pack (just like DCTs) for DCT-quick shifts, but with the reliability of planetary gears, like most auto trannies. Guess at least the first claim is bogus then .

I understand where the guy is coming from. I know the 7 speed transmission on the c63 is much better than the 5 speed transmission on my CLS55 but they seem to have the same problem. When your WOT, and shift before redline, it hits the limiter and shifts very late. So you have to shift a couple of hundred RPM's before redline so it can shift at redline. Here are some c63 owners complaining about in on MBworld: http://www.mbworld.org/forums/c63-am...uly-sucks.html

[carri0n m3]

test drive em

[Neon01]

Originally Posted by elp_jc

There's no torque converter on the C63 AMG man . I haven't driven or owned one (not interested), but that tranny is supposed to have the best of both worlds: It uses a wet-clutch pack (just like DCTs) for DCT-quick shifts, but with the reliability of planetary gears, like most auto trannies. Guess at least the first claim is bogus then .

Well ok, I don't know much about the mechanics of the car, but that FEELS like a slushbox. Even more so than an actual slushbox like my 335i's Steptronic.

Drive it and tell me I'm wrong.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by elp_jc

There's no torque converter on the C63 AMG man . I haven't driven or owned one (not interested), but that tranny is supposed to have the best of both worlds: It uses a wet-clutch pack (just like DCTs) for DCT-quick shifts, but with the reliability of planetary gears, like most auto trannies. Guess at least the first claim is bogus then .

I believe the 2011s have that wet-clutch, but the '09 and '10 models use a torque converter.

Bruce

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by Mahmood07

I understand where the guy is coming from. I know the 7 speed transmission on the c63 is much better than the 5 speed transmission on my CLS55 but they seem to have the same problem. When your WOT, and shift before redline, it hits the limiter and shifts very late. So you have to shift a couple of hundred RPM's before redline so it can shift at redline. Here are some c63 owners complaining about in on MBworld: http://www.mbworld.org/forums/c63-am...uly-sucks.html

My claim is that it's a non-issue. In sport mode at full throttle, the auto shifts at the 7200 rpm red line. The paddle shifters are fine for screwing around, maybe pretending you have a stick, but when flat out, let the auto shift where it wants.

Bruce

[1BMW4fun]

Originally Posted by Neon01

Decided not to drive the Caddy or the Lexus, just based on what I've read, I don't think they're for me. I wrote the GT-R, 911, and Cayman off my list from the start since I need 4 seats (and preferably 4 doors).

I did test drive the AMG last night though. Nice car actually, I was more impressed than I thought I was going to be. Handling didn't seem that great though, seemed a little like a big car with a really good suspension. I could the spring rates were high, but the dynamics of the car just weren't there.

The V8 engine sounded nice - though not as nice as the S65, IMO - and offered nice low-end torque, but seemed to run out of steam after about 5k rpm. I felt little desire to run out the gears other than for the sound of the engine.

The interior was very nice, with great seats and good ergonomic controls (I liked all the useful buttons on the center console), but it didn't overly impress me. I hated the fact that a new nav destination couldn't be entered while moving.

What really killed it for me was the transmission. Even in manual mode it actually felt a LOT slower than my ZF-made auto 6 speed in the 335i. Shifts were NOT crisp and took a lot longer than I had hoped. Certainly to the point where I knew I was driving an automatic. The lockup torque converter didn't spend nearly enough time in lockup condition, either, because it's mannerisms were of a typical automatic a good deal of the time. If I'm in true manual mode, I like to feel the drivetrain lash when I let off the throttle under acceleration in 1,2, or 3 gear. The M-DCT is just perfect.

So I guess that answers that. Like you all said, I'm glad I drove one though. Would have wondered if not.

Are you saying the ZF 6 speed is better than the AMG Speedshift+ 7sp in feel and respond?

[Neon01]

Originally Posted by 1BMW4fun

Are you saying the ZF 6 speed is better than the AMG Speedshift+ 7sp in feel and respond?

Honestly, in everything but normal "Drive" mode, absolutely. I do hate the way the 335i shifts in "D" mode, but in Drive Sport (DS) or manual mode, it's superb imo. Shifts are very quick, downshifts are rev-matched, there is no trace of input delay or lag. In DS mode, it has an uncanny knack for knowing when you want it to hold lower gears too. Yes, it's still an automatic at its core, but it's about as good as an actual slushbox gets imo.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by Mista_Vanquish

I'm convinced that the C63 is not special. It is a sedan with a big V8 and lots of torque. The interior is horrendous compared to the M3 and, as stated everywhere in this forum, it doesn't handle as well. Remember, the ///M Division's philosophy is to: Make the chassis faster than the engine. Nuff said.

Nuff said? If you've driven the C63 at length and have that opinion, then fine, but by any unbiased opinion, the C63 is pretty special, indeed. The interior is no more or less special than the M3 (except for those cool-looking seats). Handling? In my opinion, the overall C63 package works better in everyday driving, with better steering and a more intuitive turn-in plus more readily available power, while the M3 works better when you're strafing the back roads early on a Sunday morning - or on track.

Where do you spend your time in the car? If you spend 90% of your time commuting and/or running errands, an extremely convincing case can be made for the Merc. If, on the other hand, you spend 90% of your time strafing back roads, the M3 gets the nod.

On track? The M3 can typically lap a bit faster, but I'm not convinced it'll actually be more fun - which, for any reasonable person, is what it's all about. The C63 can be easily persuaded to do spectacular powerslides, which is guaranteed to generate big grins. Not that the M3 is in any way a fuddy-duddy, either.

Originally Posted by Mista_Vanquish

On another note, I'm starting to feel that I'll probably keep buying ///M cars for the rest of my life, assuming the ///M Division keeps producing great cars. However, I am starting to worry some, because here in the U.S. the typical buyer is starting to care less about performance and race pedigree, and more about technology, ease of use, and creature comforts. If this trend starts to dominate the marketplace, then car manufacturers are going to focus more on meeting that demand (which will equate to bland, uninspired sports cars) -

You're three generations late with your concern. M3s have been getting bigger, fatter and less "wieldy" with every generation, although arguably each new version is a better overall car than the one preceding.

Bruce

[mike33176]

Drive everything you have thoughts about so you can make the choice that fits you best. You can read all of the posts and reviews you want but, there is no substitute than seat time. Make sure you have no regrets that, when you pull the trigger, you made the best decision for yourself. I go test driving everytime a new car comes out that could be on my radar whether now or later!

[dizzyj]

I wish 2 of my real good friends had c63's and ctsv's that way we could trade off.

[elh0102]

Drive'm all, and anything else you can get your hands on. An M3 is a great car, but there are many others. Several years ago, I drove a 996 GT3 for an hour or so, and thought it was awful. Couple years later I drove another one, better tires and proper alignment, and bought one shortly thereafter; best street/track car ever made for the money (mine was 5 years old when I bought it). Drive them all.

[bobbyd1961]

Originally Posted by luckistryke

Too many M on the road already. Buy a C62.

whats a c62? and there are no Ms by me and i live in the jamb packed north east

[PoorMan]

Sorry bud the only who can and should answer this is you. If you're interested in something else MB, GM, Toyota or whatever..By all means yes try them out. As you alone will have to pay for and ultimately live with whatever decision is made.

[Captain Slow]

compare apples to apples.

if you want to test an audi, it should be an RS4 or RS5 (not here yet) to compare vs. the M3. The S4 is directed to compete with a 335. just FYI.

I drove an RS4, a C63, Cayman S, 911C2S, M5, and M6.

For what I wanted, a sports car I could daily drive, with some rear seat space, I went with the M3. Plus the convertible, makes it nicer to listen to the car with the top down at 8000 rpm....

[srt8/bmw]

Originally Posted by Neon01

Honestly, in everything but normal "Drive" mode, absolutely. I do hate the way the 335i shifts in "D" mode, but in Drive Sport (DS) or manual mode, it's superb imo. Shifts are very quick, downshifts are rev-matched, there is no trace of input delay or lag. In DS mode, it has an uncanny knack for knowing when you want it to hold lower gears too. Yes, it's still an automatic at its core, but it's about as good as an actual slushbox gets imo.

If you feel that way about your 335, as I do, then take the time to drive the CTS-V. (unless you just don't like the styling-which is personal)

I own one, and lf you watched the speed channel the other night and how the CTS-V just TOYED with the AMG in every way (especially handling), you owe it to yourself to drive one. Contrary to many who "post" on the topic--and have never taken one around a track-it is simply spectacular.

the only negative to the tranny is the manual shifters--they suck in that unlike the ones in our 335s which are intuitive, they are counterintuitive and slow. The rest of the tranny is excellent. when I drove the V around Monticello-it convinced me to change my order from manual to auto.

The car beats the M5 and M3 around the ring for a reason...try it. (plus-if you like the torque of your 335 as I do, you will love the V in a straight line and can spank AMGs all day long)

[GIGJOHNSON]

A little test driving can't hurt! The cts-v is quick but not as intuitive or sporty feeling as te m3! I have not driven the amg though....

[UNNATRAL]

GM pos vs. European Muscle car vs. handling/comfort/looks/performance master..you choose.