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      10-18-2007, 12:16 PM   #45
southlight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devo View Post
Nor, does the "unofficial" 8:03 count for the M3, unless you put Cup tires on the facelifted 911S!
Assuming the 8:03 was on Cup tires, yes.

Best regards, south
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      10-18-2007, 12:19 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
Assuming the 8:03 was on Cup tires, yes.

Best regards, south
Say it's not so...we actually agree on something. I better go play the lottery!
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      10-18-2007, 12:25 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devo View Post
Say it's not so...we actually agree on something. I better go play the lottery!
Not the first time though: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...55#post1443755

Best regards, south
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      10-18-2007, 12:39 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
This time doesn't suit for comparisons unless you get Röhrl in an M3!

Best regards, south
Top drivers in similar car set amazingly near identical times. M division should get Andy Prilaux behind the wheel of a E92 M3 on standard PS2 and set an "official" Ring time and see where the M3 stands amongst the usual suspects.
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      10-18-2007, 12:42 PM   #49
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No surprise

Quote:
Originally Posted by ILC32 View Post
Is anyone else surprised by the statement above?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 888 View Post
Lema??(technical director for M) responds: "audi rs4 and porsche 911 are no longer competitors as the new m3 is quite a bit faster"

He is plain and simply talking Sh1t.
I am not surprised, neither should you be. They absolutely are not talking sh1t. The unofficial time thus far, the 8:03 number, as well as most of the other performance metrics place the new M3 quite a bit ahead of both the RS4 and base 911. In some cases the new M3 even bests the 911S.

Check the thread called "More performance figures"
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      10-18-2007, 12:50 PM   #50
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Disagree

Quote:
Originally Posted by devo View Post
Nor, does the "unofficial" 8:03 count for the M3, unless you put Cup tires on the facelifted 911S!
Well I can chime in and disagree. Well agree and disagree... We all know great tires make a huge difference. But the other question is whether or not the vehicle is in showroom stock configuration. I think the latter is actually the most important factor in being "honest" with your testing. Ideally we would get times with the Cup+ and regular Cups as it will probably be sold only with the base Cups in the US. If you want to compare car vs. car in the truest most fair way they should have similar tires.

When you include two options each of the variables: tires(+, std), transmission(MT, AMT) and driver (Sportauto, factory ace) you will get 8 times with a fairly broad range, probably about 25 seconds. I would love to know them all but what we will get short term is simply EU std. vehicle with Sportauto driver.
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      10-18-2007, 01:07 PM   #51
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U.S. will get Michelin PS2 only, no matter if you choose 18" or 19"...

Best regards, south
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      10-18-2007, 01:07 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devo View Post
All the better that it was achieved on PS2's with "only" 355 hp and the optional 20mm susp. Which means that the facelifted, power bumped, 911S should run sub 7:59! Add x51 (400 hp+) to that car and you're likely in the low 7:50's. Add Cup tires and the M won't touch it.
That's the devo I know.

Anything else you want to add to the 911S? I bet if we kept adding things to the M3 it would get better times as well.
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      10-18-2007, 02:27 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dechoong View Post
Top drivers in similar car set amazingly near identical times. M division should get Andy Prilaux behind the wheel of a E92 M3 on standard PS2 and set an "official" Ring time and see where the M3 stands amongst the usual suspects.
Agreed. We have a fair amount of disagreement in this file in regard to "official" Nurburgring times, with most adhering to the Sportauto bible.

Me? I want to see what the car is really capable of doing, so 7:59s for Walther Rohrl (997S) and Dave Hill (Z51 Vette) are the official times for me. "What the car is capable of" times, that is.

Sportauto times are also valuable, but on-site variables mean that their posted times are variable, as well. Their 8:05 in a 997S is getting pretty close, but the 8:15 in a Vette is almost silly.

Bruce
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      10-18-2007, 02:36 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epacy View Post
That's the devo I know.

Anything else you want to add to the 911S? I bet if we kept adding things to the M3 it would get better times as well.
It took you long enough! I knew if I fished long enough, I'd catch something.
(It's all true, of course.)

Some here already have; like Cup tires. It really doesn't matter how one sells themselves on Cup tires being okay because they may or may not be standard equipment in some parts of the world. The fact remains that the tires are improving the times not the car. If, of course, the SA time was on Cup tires.

As far as adding things to the M, go ahead add everything that you have. Even with Cup tires, the M won't best the 911S in facelifted, power bumped, x51, 20mm suspension (ALL STOCK) configuration in any speed contest.

With that said, have you seen what I will be driving very soon?
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      10-18-2007, 02:44 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Agreed. We have a fair amount of disagreement in this file in regard to "official" Nurburgring times, with most adhering to the Sportauto bible.

Me? I want to see what the car is really capable of doing, so 7:59s for Walther Rohrl (997S) and Dave Hill (Z51 Vette) are the official times for me. "What the car is capable of" times, that is.

Sportauto times are also valuable, but on-site variables mean that their posted times are variable, as well. Their 8:05 in a 997S is getting pretty close, but the 8:15 in a Vette is almost silly.

Bruce

Like he said.
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      10-18-2007, 02:50 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devo View Post

As far as adding things to the M, go ahead add everything that you have. Even with Cup tires, the M won't best the 911S in facelifted, power bumped, x51, 20mm suspension (ALL STOCK) configuration in any speed contest.
The fact that you're referring to the facelifted 911S inherently says that BMW must have done a great job with the M3. Must be good enough for the current 911S then!?

Best regards, south
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      10-18-2007, 02:54 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
The fact that you're referring to the facelifted 911S says that BMW must have done a great job with the M3. Must be good enough for the current 911S then!?

Best regards, south

HaHa. No, not really without CUP tires, the M will not beat the current 911S at the 'Ring.

Maybe you should have a look see at the recent thread regarding some speed runs. Oh, that's right it's not Sport Auto and the M didn't win, so it must be flawed. The sad thing is, is that BMW couldn't even compete with a four year old car.
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      10-18-2007, 02:58 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devo View Post
HaHa. No, not really without CUP tires, the M will not beat the current 911S at the 'Ring.

Maybe you should have a look see at the recent thread regarding some speed runs. Oh, that's right it's not Sport Auto and the M didn't win, so it must be flawed. The sad thing is, is that BMW couldn't even compete with a four year old car.
Devo: Its pretty clear by now you think the M3 is a sad POS, and you think the 997S is great. No need to keep saying it over and over, unless you are looking for attention. . .
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      10-18-2007, 03:07 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devo View Post
HaHa. No, not really without CUP tires, the M will not beat the current 911S at the 'Ring.
You already knew it better today:
Quote:
Originally Posted by devo View Post
If, of course, the SA time was on Cup tires.
Best regards, south
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      10-18-2007, 03:07 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devo View Post
The sad thing is, is that BMW couldn't even compete with a four year old car.
A four year old car that costs much more. I don't see why that is so sad. There are plenty of older cars that will smoke an M3.
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      10-18-2007, 03:20 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
You already knew it better today:


Best regards, south

Down deep you know that the M was on CUP tires. And, the benchmark is 7:59.
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      10-18-2007, 03:31 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devo View Post
Down deep you know that the M was on CUP tires. And, the benchmark is 7:59.
No, there is contradictory information on that. One said the 8:03 was on standard (=PS2) tires, Just_Me states that this time was on Cup tires. I said that already. It's not my problem if you don't believe this.

And no, the benchmark is not 7:59 either. It's the time Röhrl achieved, nobody is faster on street P cars. Would you like to compare that time with the Sportauto time? That wouldn't be reputable.

Best regards, south
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      10-18-2007, 04:10 PM   #63
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Two things

Quote:
Originally Posted by devo View Post
Maybe you should have a look see at the recent thread regarding some speed runs. Oh, that's right it's not Sport Auto and the M didn't win, so it must be flawed. The sad thing is, is that BMW couldn't even compete with a four year old car.
1. Which thread? Please add these or your other ones to our nice "library" of performance figures that include M3 and 911 times (and other competitors as well). So far the M3 vs. 911S battle does not look to be in favor of the P. Here is the first thread, add your figures copying and pasting the last update near the end.

2. What will you be driving soon?
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      10-18-2007, 04:18 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
No, there is contradictory information on that. One said the 8:03 was on standard (=PS2) tires, Just_Me states that this time was on Cup tires. I said that already. It's not my problem if you don't believe this.

And no, the benchmark is not 7:59 either. It's the time Röhrl achieved, nobody is faster on street P cars. Would you like to compare that time with the Sportauto time? That wouldn't be reputable.

Best regards, south
Sport Auto with PS2's for both cars. Options?

Where do you draw the line? BMW w/CUP tires (because they may be able to be ordered that way in other countries) and DCT vs. 911S w/ x51, 20mm susp., DSG and even PCCB's? Given that that configuration of P-car would be OEM, it really wouldn't be fair to the BMW, and would be cost prohibitive for most buyers.

So, I don't know that one can really say what combo is truely fair. But, I do adamantly believe that the tires and testing procedures should be equal.

In the end, I don't really care which car is faster, because it makes for better competition. I just get the same recurring feeling that many here don't give Porsche credit when it is due.

I, personally, will give BMW credit, but they have to earn it. They did with the E46, now we will wait and see.
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      10-18-2007, 04:26 PM   #65
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[QUOTE=swamp2;1559247]1. Which thread? Please add these or your other ones to our nice "library" of performance figures that include M3 and 911 times (and other competitors as well). So far the M3 vs. 911S battle does not look to be in favor of the P. Here is the first thread, add your figures copying and pasting the last update near the end.

2. What will you be driving soon?[/QUOTE)


I was referring to the recent thread titled Automobil A test, posted today, by 'Gabri 343'. The M doesn't favor so well. I hope it's better than that.

As far as what I will drive soon; look under my name and "drives".
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      10-18-2007, 04:33 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ILC32 View Post
Devo: Its pretty clear by now you think the M3 is a sad POS, and you think the 997S is great. No need to keep saying it over and over, unless you are looking for attention. . .

Never said that it was a POS. It's still a great car. I am as guilty of overly zealous behavior as many others here.
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