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08-19-2012, 07:08 PM | #45 | |
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But alas it isn't just power but the complete package that I was after...including a car that was going to allow me to become a better driver (hence the GT-R was out). So the M3 it is. I'm actually excited to see what I can do with this car.
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08-19-2012, 07:29 PM | #46 | |
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Dude I wouldn't doubt that you saw that race go down, but EVERYONE here on this board knows a manual MT M3 will get slaughtered by a 63. DCT is close race, I will agree to that. I would honestly want to see this race, but unfortunately there would be no way of knowing if the M was stock. |
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08-19-2012, 08:12 PM | #47 | |
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08-19-2012, 11:58 PM | #48 |
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I know what AMG has done with the C63 is nothing short of fireworks stuffs, but whenever i think of the 6.3 litre capacity, the awesomeness dwindles a little. I know some say AMG "chose" a different path. They have always chosen a different path to M and never quite managing to match. They had to go all the way to 6.3 to better the M3 in the straights. I have not driven the AMG and prob will like it if i do, but as an arm chair critic, the S65's sophistication and cutting edge tech takes the cake for me. I don't give a rat's ass whether it's made by hand or machine. I will take a machine made marvel of an engine over a handmade piece of crap any day of the week including weekends and holidays. (not saying the 6.3 is crappy)
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08-20-2012, 06:40 AM | #49 | |
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Saying that you take pride in the sophistication of the S65 is no different than someone taking pride in the AMG being built to some extent by hand (or at least moreso than other engines). Bottom line is they BOTH perform exceptionally well and which engine someone likes comes down to a few things... 1) personal preference to approach (redline/displacement), 2) whether you prefer big torque or high rev racing feel, 3) whether you are blinded by either BMW or MB marketing and are a fanboy of one or the other.
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08-20-2012, 12:38 PM | #51 | |
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08-20-2012, 01:19 PM | #52 | |
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08-20-2012, 01:38 PM | #53 |
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You are correct. When complete, it will likely be on par with an Alpha 6 GT-R in a roll-on (I will be doing either a VF 620 or ESS 600 - but in either case will be running meth + full catless exhaust which should get me ~ 550-575 wheel). But not even close off the line to the GT-R. And I probably won't be as fast around a track either.
A better platform to compete with the GT-R is the 911T. I like being an underdog...and you aren't the underdog with those cars.
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08-20-2012, 03:30 PM | #54 |
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08-20-2012, 03:37 PM | #55 | |
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I responded with a note about how hand built engines differ from machine built engines. I don't really give a damn either way, however, since today's automated build processes are so good. For me, it's how the car I am about to buy runs and drives, regardless of how it's built. Bruce |
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08-20-2012, 03:53 PM | #57 |
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lol I do agree with you. The only way the S65 motor can compete is to stay between 7,000 and 8,400 RPM. But the fact that it can compete at all is very impressive.
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08-20-2012, 04:05 PM | #59 |
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08-20-2012, 04:12 PM | #60 |
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We all know how this works (well, many of us). To be even close to the C63 with torque to the wheels, the M3 needs to be very high in the rev range and even then it is less. We are talking about torque produced by the engine (engines being the theme of the thread) which is much more readily available. Bottom line though is you are correct and when driven properly (especially the DCT) torque at the wheels is good in the M3. At a track, the M3 has lots of usable torque when revs are maintained at a high level.
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08-20-2012, 04:37 PM | #61 | ||||
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Here's a list of tolerances I found on the 'net for an S52 engine: S52 3.2L Piston Rings: (all in millimeters mm.) 1st groove - plain compression ring end clearance 0.25 - 0.40 end float 0.03 - 0.065 2nd groove - tapper face ring end clearance 0.2 - 0.4 end float 0.02 - 0.055 3rd groove - oil ring (scraper w/hose-spring) end clearance 0.25 - 0.50 end float 0.020 - 0.055 Piston: diameter Std. 86.365 (+/-) 0.009 mm 1st oversize 86.565 (+/-) 0.009 mm Piston running clearance 0.026 - 0.058 mm Max wear clearance piston/cylinder (engine operated) 0.113 mm Rods: Diameter big end 48.000 - 48.016 mm Pin bushing inside dia. 22 (+0.010/+0.005) mm Max deviation weight (per engine) without bearing (+/-) 4g Cylinder Bore: (in millimeters mm.) Bore 86.400 (+0.014) Intermediate bore dimensions a) a) new or recon work 86.450 (+0.014) Grinding dimension 86.600 (+0.14) Permitted roundness deviation of cylinder bore a) 0.005 Permitted conicity of cylinder bore a) 0.01 Permitted total wear clearance between piston and cylinder engine run in 0.113 Apparently BMW is being coy about publishing current M3 numbers, but these'll do. Just casually perusing these items (and forgetting my snickering in regard to your sub-micron statement), can you see how cylinder to cylinder variation is way more than an antiquated notion? Can you also see how hand fitting pistons at the top end of the tolerance to cylinders at the top end of the tolerance can make sense, and make a difference? Quote:
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Now for my final point, in spite of some of the information I've provided, I am assuming that you will cling to your belief that today's automated tolerances have made any advantage of hand-building moot. If that's the case, then why would anybody do that unless volumes were very low. Don't say marketing please. You think marketing dictates build techniques at MB? Don't be silly. If not marketing or finance, then why? Bruce Last edited by bruce.augenstein@comcast.; 08-20-2012 at 05:30 PM.. |
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08-20-2012, 04:43 PM | #62 | |
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The M3 appears to be a bit of an overachiever given its power and weight. I think part of that comes from its chassis, suspension and tires. All critical in terms of hook up and getting more acceleration and less wheel spin, wheel hop, etc. The car also appears to have a very efficient drive train (low parasitic losses). However, putting to bed the issue of a small underrating vs. a highly efficient drive train is extremely challenging and that absolutely won't be solved with any normal dyno testing.
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08-20-2012, 04:50 PM | #63 | |
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You are correct about usable torque. I went on many runs with my former M3 and found that for spirited driving, the DCT M3 always seemed to be in the correct gear coming out of turns and puts the power to the wheels in remarkable fashion. I think the car's gearing combined with the DCT is something special. Same held true when I took the car to VIR Last edited by alms211; 08-21-2012 at 06:33 AM.. |
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08-20-2012, 09:12 PM | #64 | |||||
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Here is a quote from Addison D. Cole, CEO of Adcole Corporation an inspection machine company, about how improved engine tolerances are greening engines, Quote:
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Also the S52 was now developed what, well over a decade ago? That's a long time from the perspective of precision, tolerances and robotics! The S65 surely has a variety of single digit micron tolerances. Quote:
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You know the answer, it is ALL driven by volume and cost and their relation. Its very simple.
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08-20-2012, 09:17 PM | #65 |
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Here is a decent video showing some modern automobile engine machining and assembly. The equipment invovled here is obviously very high tech, precise and most importantly for this discussion EXPENSIVE. Look at the last segment where the timing chain is done. That is one heck of a robot!
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08-21-2012, 12:09 PM | #66 | ||||
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Be that as it may, however, even three microns is a far cry from your sub-micron comment, and my original note was about cylinder to cylinder and piston to piston variation - not crankshafts. In the example I provided, we're looking at 23 microns in terms of combined piston and cylinder variation in the S52, which is enough to drive a couple of trucks from the Submicron Shipping Company through there, side by side. Here is where hand assembly can make a difference. A clear difference. Quote:
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Expensive. Quote:
In point of fact our disagreement is based on the fact that I know it's NOT all about the money. Mercedes has built those 6.2 liter engines by the thousands, since they've put that engine into just about everything except the Smart Car. There was clearly enough volume there to justify the automated tooling (a good deal more volume than exists with the S65), yet they went with hand assembly - at least as far as fitting pistons goes. I believe they did this to get better piston to cylinder wall tolerances, with whatever benefit that provides them. Bruce PS - By the way, your childlike faith in the M Group's ability to provide sub-micron tolerances in the S65 is touching - but I'll need some proof, please. |
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