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      06-08-2010, 04:41 AM   #991
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
I'm still missing the part that says anything remotely like:
4. My dyno #'s more than match how the car performs in the real world and the Vbox, Per in his own words says his DO NOT
You came up with a nice quote to describe Per's curiousity to see how is car dynos after it is fully adapted. To help prove your point, I think the better quote would have been:
I actually did win the first race against him with something similar as one your video, but i was told he had some boostproblem .
But there is another ESS VT-625 with acropovic exhaust racing him today , he will report to me if the result is the same. Then we will know if there is something wrong with my car.
And who came up with that silly notion anyways -- of saying "my car's dyno results match my real world performance?" How do you possibly look at a dyno chart and say "according to this, I should put 5 car-lengths on a 997TT."
Robert, it is very clear, Per came to the conclusion that based on his comparo runs over the weekend vs. his dyno runs that his car was not making 594whp STD CF or 700HP, that is essentially what he said. I should have the left the "Vbox" part out, because he has not Vboxed his car as far as I know.

FYI the difference between the two best 60-130 runs, a DCT and 6MT, in similar conditions and mods is 11.28 vs. 10.71. But if the 6MT is making more power it will certainly beat the DCT. A stock DCT does it in 12.6 seconds.

Anyone that looks at a dyno chart and then predicts exactly how many CLth's his car will pull against another is a bit silly, just as typing in information to "cartest" and predicting results is a bit silly, how the two are different I don't know, you can type all that into cartest and it will tell you which car is faster, no? Isn't that what you used to predict your results and others?
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16 F82 M4 DCT - ZCP - JB4 - 556WHP / 570WTQ
08 E92 M3 DCT - Bolt Ons - 60-130MPH 10.71s - 11.88 @ 118MPH - 377WHP
ESS VT2-625 SC 60-130MPH 6.80s - 11.30 @ 129.3 MPH 586WHP / 379WTQ
ESS VT3-750 - 60-130MPH 6.14s - 10.81 @ 135.13 MPH 690WHP/463WTQ
Shift-S3ctor E92 M3 - 1/2 Mile Trap Speed WR - 174.13 MPH

Last edited by DLSJ5; 06-08-2010 at 04:58 AM.
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      06-08-2010, 04:43 AM   #992
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post

Think of every talking point you've ever come up with to explain dyno differences that were put into question -- then apply them to real world results. Then you'll realize how irrelevant it is to compare these so-called "real world results." Comparing properly calibrated and properly used dyno results from one car to another in one part of the world to another with different weather conditions is completely valid. They're meant to be a measurement tool. Comparing 6MT to DCT with street tires vs. race tires, in 100 degree heat vs. 35 degrees at 2700 ft altitude vs. sea level with two different drivers is the true definition of complete irrelevance.
PG, you usually think very rationally, why are you not in this case? When two cars are at the same exact place, on the same exact roads, same exact weather, the conditions that hinder the car effect BOTH cars. Read that again, BOTH CARS. So your excuse does not apply here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
Edit: If dyno results were so irrelevant, then Drew wouldn't be posting them every five minutes on 6 different car forums.
He did that to show and prove how biased your little efficiency thread was; and he did a very good job at it too!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
I'm glad I finally got another convert to my way of thinking. I'm look forward to you asking for the same thing from all of your friends in your very next post.
Your right, I mean Drew's numbers weren't at an independent dyno right? Niterider didn't post independent dyno's either. Ricky didn't get independent dyno's, ect ect ect... What are you trying to say here?


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Originally Posted by PencilGeek View Post
I will give you $1000 towards your next engine rebuild if you will take off your air filter tomorrow and leave it off for the remainder of your engine life.
Wait a minute, I thought taking the filter off doesn't always equate to more boost, why would I be at risk? I kid I kid

What I was trying to say was that just because taking the filter off a car gains you boost, doesn't mean things are unsafe as Roman said..
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      06-08-2010, 05:31 AM   #993
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I think you are all forgetting this post by per.

"just came home from the first day of the m5boardevent, raced a lot of cars, tuned m5s, ferarri f40, meth 335s, was easy wins, was even with a 700+ audi rs6, and a noell stroked m6, i lost against 2 tuned porsche turbo and a gtr p850+ switzer with 5-6 clsr, same car who raced a veyron on youtube.
I will post some links to videos as they are being published.
I was surpriced with the 2 stock gtrs, one was a easy win , but the other one i missed the start with a few meters and it took me almost to 240km/h until i passed him, the start is realy important in races like this , you have to watch for false starts 2-3 meter is enough to get some extra km/h who makes a big differnce if the races are even "


Let's wait until per has a chance to respond to his weekend himself instead of people assuming they know what hes thinking. And let's also wait to see some of the other videos from the event
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      06-08-2010, 05:35 AM   #994
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MspiredM3 View Post


WHY WOULD YOU POST A DYNO THAT CAN BE ACHIEVED ONLY ONE TIME, AND ONLY ON THE DYNO WITHOUT SPECIFYING SUCH?
Here is another "Not our car or our dyno" dyno posted at the end of the video.

[u2b]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Hr_5ip9oT14&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Hr_5ip9oT14&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/u2b]
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      06-08-2010, 10:22 AM   #995
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I was at ESS in Norway to do a check of the car , since it is a new car i asked them to se that everything is fine, and of course to do a new dyno.
I had hard to believe that a kit that are sold as a 625 hp kit would give so much more hp, coming from the 335 forum where a lot of whp is counted with a factor of 1,2 or more it just was to good to be true.
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      06-08-2010, 10:38 AM   #996
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Gents,

Please keep the discussion civil.....

Let's all play nice together...please.
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      06-08-2010, 11:32 AM   #997
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Let me repeat this one more time: You guys need to keep on topic.

I wanted to let this thread run to see how it pans out, but it didn't work that well. Hence, every further post not being related to the original topic will get deleted and is subject to infractions. The same goes for any comment inciting more drama.

As usual, all questions via PM. Thanks everybody!


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      06-08-2010, 11:36 AM   #998
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Bottom Line to me atleast is this, ESS Makes a Stellar, Well designed , Perfictly Tuned Kit & with that being said they even Claim the most conservative number on a Dyno ....

I own the 600+ kit and reciently discoverd 3 boost leaks on my car and they have been leaking for some time cause i was never ever able to break the tires loose in second gear and sometimes even in 1st gear , only on below 35 deg weather was i able to do so, i even questioned with other owners of the ESS kit and they all said our break them loose easly .... well now that i fixed my leaks i can say this i run 295/35/20 GoodYear F1 tires and i have absolutly no traction in 1st , 2nd , and early 3rd this happend in 85deg weather ..... I've own alot of fast cars and this thing is putting down well over 500+ whp , will dyno soon ....
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      06-08-2010, 12:40 PM   #999
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Quote:
Originally Posted by per View Post
I was at ESS in Norway to do a check of the car , since it is a new car i asked them to se that everything is fine, and of course to do a new dyno.
I had hard to believe that a kit that are sold as a 625 hp kit would give so much more hp, coming from the 335 forum where a lot of whp is counted with a factor of 1,2 or more it just was to good to be true.
So there was nothing wrong with the car and the adaptations were normal, thank you for posting up, if I have quoted you incorrectly, said anything that was speculative or inaccurate I apologize Per, thank you for sharing your experience and not getting defensive. Best of luck next time, get some good tires and start in the right gear on the next runs!
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ESS VT2-625 SC 60-130MPH 6.80s - 11.30 @ 129.3 MPH 586WHP / 379WTQ
ESS VT3-750 - 60-130MPH 6.14s - 10.81 @ 135.13 MPH 690WHP/463WTQ
Shift-S3ctor E92 M3 - 1/2 Mile Trap Speed WR - 174.13 MPH
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      06-08-2010, 12:56 PM   #1000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by per View Post
I was at ESS in Norway to do a check of the car , since it is a new car i asked them to se that everything is fine, and of course to do a new dyno.
I had hard to believe that a kit that are sold as a 625 hp kit would give so much more hp, coming from the 335 forum where a lot of whp is counted with a factor of 1,2 or more it just was to good to be true.
Thanks for the follow up per. I am glad you are happy with your car. Your dyno numbers look very good.
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      06-08-2010, 01:01 PM   #1001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
Let me repeat this one more time: You guys need to keep on topic.

I wanted to let this thread run to see how it pans out, but it didn't work that well. Hence, every further post not being related to the original topic will get deleted and is subject to infractions. The same goes for any comment inciting more drama.

As usual, all questions via PM. Thanks everybody!


Best regards,
south
why don't you clean up on the ESS thread? There are so many things to clean up right now. You did on the Gintani's thread
you need to treat us equally
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...=392834&page=2
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      06-08-2010, 02:38 PM   #1002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LV-E92M3 View Post
why don't you clean up on the ESS thread? There are so many things to clean up right now. You did on the Gintani's thread
you need to treat us equally
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...=392834&page=2
Fair enough, I just cleaned up some comments I missed.


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      06-08-2010, 02:45 PM   #1003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DLSJ5 View Post
So there was nothing wrong with the car and the adaptations were normal, thank you for posting up, if I have quoted you incorrectly, said anything that was speculative or inaccurate I apologize Per, thank you for sharing your experience and not getting defensive. Best of luck next time, get some good tires and start in the right gear on the next runs!
Looks like it puts down what it always did , 580+ whp at 7.5 psi we call this here in New York Titssss ( that's where I was born and raised ) , nice power man !

I can bet that if I was driving that car you would have seen different results not that his was bad ... But good shifting at good shift points make a world of a differnece and it's also fair to say that he needs to learn the car , even I do considering the power lost due to my boost leak ..... Power/shifting/car knowlage = equal good times and races...

:::: cheers ::::::
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      06-08-2010, 02:46 PM   #1004
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Wow that comment about Pea's 700hp dyno got taken the wrong way I think!
Since I'm a good and long time customer I've had the chance to try several E9X M3 with different SC setups and all I can say is that they all worked perfectly and those VT2 625s are beasts for sure!
My friend Robert has a 625 and was also at the same M5board event as Pea this weekend, Can't wait til Gustav posts some vids of his runs so all can see how fast these cars are
Great job ESS, keep it up!
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      06-08-2010, 03:12 PM   #1005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m33 View Post
Looks like it puts down what it always did , 580+ whp at 7.5 psi we call this here in New York Titssss ( that's where I was born and raised ) , nice power man !

I can bet that if I was driving that car you would have seen different results not that his was bad ... But good shifting at good shift points make a world of a differnece and it's also fair to say that he needs to learn the car , even I do considering the power lost due to my boost leak ..... Power/shifting/car knowlage = equal good times and races...

:::: cheers ::::::
There is no doubt that the #'s are fantastic, regarding the runs, could be a couple factors, wrong gear, and yes he needs to learn the car a bit more, apparently he had a DCT 335I before this, but maybe the DCT is that good vs. the 6MT, similar to the PDK on the 997tt. Haha, if you feel you can do better, then go out and shot some comparo vids!
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ESS VT3-750 - 60-130MPH 6.14s - 10.81 @ 135.13 MPH 690WHP/463WTQ
Shift-S3ctor E92 M3 - 1/2 Mile Trap Speed WR - 174.13 MPH
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      06-08-2010, 03:22 PM   #1006
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Hi I'm the owner of the other Swedish VT2 625 M3 with akrapovic exhaust. I'm really pleased with the performance and results from dragracing cars all sunday on the m5board event,
I hope Gustav will post some clips of my races so you can se for your self
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      06-08-2010, 03:57 PM   #1007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3RO View Post
Hi I'm the owner of the other Swedish VT2 625 M3 with akrapovic exhaust. I'm really pleased with the performance and results from dragracing cars all sunday on the m5board event,
I hope Gustav will post some clips of my races so you can se for your self
Looking forward to it, I love this stuff, there is nothing like seeing how your car performs against other fast cars.
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ESS VT3-750 - 60-130MPH 6.14s - 10.81 @ 135.13 MPH 690WHP/463WTQ
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      06-08-2010, 04:01 PM   #1008
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Wow, what a thing! Hasn't this thread gotten a bit heated.

Can I let you guys in on a little secret? An M3 needs to be taken by the scruff of it's neck & thrashed like there's no tomorrow. If you don't do this, you will not extract the maximum performance from it.

It's not like a turbo car where you can afford to granny shift short of the redline, & the wave of midrange torque will make up for your lazy driving.

No, sir-ree Bawb. You need to rev an M3 to the limiter & snap it as darn quick as you can & keep it up there & on the boil gear after gear. That's why a DCT has such an advantage over a manual even given 2 drivers that can row like champions.

Now take 2 average drivers and the gap widens somewhat. Then add a 600hp supercharged manual M3 into the mix. Then add a driver that has been driving DCT for the last few years & give him a 600hp manual M3.

Besides the shifts being slow, there's the added drama of wheelspin between the shifts now. And if you rev a few hundred rpm short of redline you lose a heck of a lot of acceleration. And this accumulates over a couple of gears.

No offense, Per maybe I reading this wrong, but I think you still need to get accustomed to the new car 1stly, & the new power 2ndly. A driver can make or brake a car's performance. You get some guys that are like caged tigers. Then you get some guys that are laid back, and inevitably start the race having to play catch up.

Looks like Big Tom, was the former. He was ready to pounce come the last cone & get a jump into the lead. But Per, pretty please do me a favour next time. Do not start in 2nd. EVER! If you have to bounce the limiter in 1st then so be it. I will never go rolling in 2nd gear with a big turbo car. That's playing right into their hands. They can go into whatever gear they want. 2nd probably suits their powerband better anyway.

But an M3 needs to get into the powerband, and you have to engage 1st gear. 50km/h in 1st is perfect. Should be around 7000rpm. I know it's a short stint into 2nd. And maybe you will light up the rears when you shift. But you can control that & from that point on you are in the powerband. To labour way out of powerband for an eternity, is a far far worse situation to be in. Especially against big turbo Porshes that will climb onto boost mid-gear & leave you gasping for air & looking at your rev counter laboriously climbing past 4000rpm while they have boosted 2nd gear & are into boost in 3rd before you have gone halfway through 2nd.

Trust me on this, charger or not, an M3's weapon is revs. Use it. Rolling at 3000rpm (especially if the other car jumps you), will paint a wrong picture of your performance. After all the cars you are racing are not exactly push-overs. You first have to catch up to them, before you can pass them. And with the acceleration advantage they have at the start, it's leaving too much to do.
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      06-08-2010, 04:27 PM   #1009
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M&M you are probably right , i have had a tuned M3 for 1 week and certainly need some practise after my DCT tranny days.
Bu i tryed starting in first gear only ending up with spinning wheels and a car that didnīt move.
But i will give it a try next time.
BTW is it only me that runs completely catless with VT-600 or 625
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      06-08-2010, 04:34 PM   #1010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by per View Post
M&M you are probably right , i have had a tuned M3 for 1 week and certainly need some practise after my DCT tranny days.
Bu i tryed starting in first gear only ending up with spinning wheels and a car that didnīt move.
But i will give it a try next time.
BTW is it only me that runs completely catless with VT-600 or 625
Get drags baby ....
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      06-08-2010, 04:56 PM   #1011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by per View Post
Bu i tryed starting in first gear only ending up with spinning wheels and a car that didnīt move.
Ok then try shifting a bit slower into 2nd, or shifting quick & then when it spins, lift to half-throttle & back down to full again, all in one motion.
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      06-08-2010, 04:57 PM   #1012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M View Post
Wow, what a thing! Hasn't this thread gotten a bit heated.

Can I let you guys in on a little secret? An M3 needs to be taken by the scruff of it's neck & thrashed like there's no tomorrow. If you don't do this, you will not extract the maximum performance from it.

It's not like a turbo car where you can afford to granny shift short of the redline, & the wave of midrange torque will make up for your lazy driving.

No, sir-ree Bawb. You need to rev an M3 to the limiter & snap it as darn quick as you can & keep it up there & on the boil gear after gear. That's why a DCT has such an advantage over a manual even given 2 drivers that can row like champions.

Now take 2 average drivers and the gap widens somewhat. Then add a 600hp supercharged manual M3 into the mix. Then add a driver that has been driving DCT for the last few years & give him a 600hp manual M3.

Besides the shifts being slow, there's the added drama of wheelspin between the shifts now. And if you rev a few hundred rpm short of redline you lose a heck of a lot of acceleration. And this accumulates over a couple of gears.

No offense, Per maybe I reading this wrong, but I think you still need to get accustomed to the new car 1stly, & the new power 2ndly. A driver can make or brake a car's performance. You get some guys that are like caged tigers. Then you get some guys that are laid back, and inevitably start the race having to play catch up.

Looks like Big Tom, was the former. He was ready to pounce come the last cone & get a jump into the lead. But Per, pretty please do me a favour next time. Do not start in 2nd. EVER! If you have to bounce the limiter in 1st then so be it. I will never go rolling in 2nd gear with a big turbo car. That's playing right into their hands. They can go into whatever gear they want. 2nd probably suits their powerband better anyway.

But an M3 needs to get into the powerband, and you have to engage 1st gear. 50km/h in 1st is perfect. Should be around 7000rpm. I know it's a short stint into 2nd. And maybe you will light up the rears when you shift. But you can control that & from that point on you are in the powerband. To labour way out of powerband for an eternity, is a far far worse situation to be in. Especially against big turbo Porshes that will climb onto boost mid-gear & leave you gasping for air & looking at your rev counter laboriously climbing past 4000rpm while they have boosted 2nd gear & are into boost in 3rd before you have gone halfway through 2nd.

Trust me on this, charger or not, an M3's weapon is revs. Use it. Rolling at 3000rpm (especially if the other car jumps you), will paint a wrong picture of your performance. After all the cars you are racing are not exactly push-overs. You first have to catch up to them, before you can pass them. And with the acceleration advantage they have at the start, it's leaving too much to do.
Many excellent points! FWIW guys, M&M holds the record 60-130MPH for a bolt on 6MT E9X M3, 11.28s, this guy can drive.
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ESS VT2-625 SC 60-130MPH 6.80s - 11.30 @ 129.3 MPH 586WHP / 379WTQ
ESS VT3-750 - 60-130MPH 6.14s - 10.81 @ 135.13 MPH 690WHP/463WTQ
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