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      03-06-2010, 07:00 PM   #705
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We are not big fans of methanol. We understand that some customers like it but we prefere all of our products to run on 100% pump fuel. Like our current stage 1 and 2 VT kits our stage 3 VT product will be designed to run on pump.
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      03-06-2010, 07:10 PM   #706
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M View Post
Meth/H20 injection is not a necessity to make big power or a safe tune...

Meth/H20 injection is the 'easy' band-aid approach to fix poorly tuned FI performance upgrades, increase the rwhp numbers, or to overcome some hardware engineering defect in the kit. (such as high IAT's)

A poorly engineered hardware design will lead to a number of performance related issues.

The last thing the tuner wants to see...is a poorly designed and engineered hardware package.
Nice scare tactic bud.


Even on a kit that doesn't rely on W/M, it can only help, not hinder performance. I agree with you, running a tune or a certain boost level that relies on W/M to keep certain parameters in check is a tad risky, but if you have the right safety mechanisms in place, then you are good to go.

There is only so much power you can make on 91 craptane, regardless of the hardware or tune. W/M injection is a tool that can be used to "push the envelope" further while still using pump fuel.
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      03-06-2010, 07:15 PM   #707
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DLSJ5 View Post
That it is certainly one way to look at it and absolutely true in some cases, you make some great points. You're right it's not needed or essential either I would say, unless you want to run more than 7psi on 91 octane.

However, there's another way to look at it. As we all know, the S65 was never intended to run FI. I think the main goal when you design the hardware for this setup is to keep IAT's in check, WM is a GREAT safety feature in this regard. It will also help with the poor quality of 91 octane gas, especially with the CR on the S65. So it's a win win if you run it that way.

As you correctly pointed out, if you tune for the WM and it relies on it for appropriate AFR's, to higher timing, etc., then no doubt your points are even more valid, because if the WM fails the the motor may as well. There are safety features for this though. However running it on a FI S65, if you choose, I think is a good idea at least they where with my FI experiences on the S54, that being near 40K (not all of it on WM) with as much as 11psi in it's latter stages.

BTW, a member on M3forum, is having ESS tune his VT3 E46 M3 for water meth, so I don't think AJ hates it that much.
Hey Drew,

You make a good point about a 50/50 Water/Meth setup being used to shore up the 91 craptane you guys have to settle for in socal.

But my post was intended to point out, that a very well engineered hardware package can actually help keep IAT's in check.

How?

Since a poorly designed hardware package (blower, interccooling system, intake manifold design, and all the intake piping) will actually create more HEAT that needs to be neutralized later.

The more heat you create, the more likely you will need a Water/Meth injection system to bring down the IAT's. (prior to entering the engine)

Poorly designed FI kits that restrict the air circulation to vital areas will result in higher engine bay temps. (like kits that block off large portions of the engine radiator)

Intercooler cores that are too large will also have a negative effect on the tuning as well (by blocking off other cooling mechanisms), even though conventional wisdom says a bigger intercooler always = better cooling.

That's not necessarily true in every case...

It's all about building a balanced FI system that maximizes the efficiency/power of the available airflow...while also selecting the properly engineered cooling components that will reduce the IAT's, plus an overall design that maintains the proper air flow throughout the engine bay.

While that may actually SOUND very simple on the surface, it's actually harder than you might think to pull this off.

Modern cars (including the M3) have very crowded engine bays. There is not a lot of room in there to accommodate a number of additional parts.

That requires some very innovative engineering solutions, that require a lot of R&D to figure out.

Because if you don't do your homework, the end result will be a FI kit that underperforms. Not to mention a number of performance related issues that are not easily solved.

As you can imagine, that would lead to some very unhappy customers.

You'd be surprised at how efficient the S65B40 engine and cooling system is, compared to the S54B32 in the E46 M3.

Remember, the S54 also uses a MAF while the S65 does not. It's a lot more difficult to tune the S54's ECU with that handicap (if you want to make 500+rwhp), and the fact that it's harder to keep the engine heat in check. (with that cast iron block that retains a lot of engine bay heat)

The S54 can still be made to run safely without Water/Meth injection, but I can see your point about it being an extra layer of protection if you are running high boost setup (9-11psi) without lower the CR of the engine.

I stand by my earlier statement:

Superior engineering beats suspect engineering hands down.
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      03-06-2010, 08:29 PM   #708
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MspiredM3 View Post
Nice scare tactic bud.


Even on a kit that doesn't rely on W/M, it can only help, not hinder performance. I agree with you, running a tune or a certain boost level that relies on W/M to keep certain parameters in check is a tad risky, but if you have the right safety mechanisms in place, then you are good to go.

There is only so much power you can make on 91 craptane, regardless of the hardware or tune. W/M injection is a tool that can be used to "push the envelope" further while still using pump fuel.
Hey Mike,

No scare tactics here brother.

I'm just a tad more conservative in regards to these things.

"Less is more"...as far as I'm concerned. Over the years, it has become very apparent to me...that K.I.S.S. is usually the best path to take.

The more elaborate you build something...the more likely something will go wrong.

In other words, the more complex (or complicated) you make a design, the more likely you will end up of having issues with it. (over time)

I'll take a FI kit that uses fewer parts (to do the same job) vs. one that uses more parts.

Since I don't care about being the king of stoplight drag racing, I'll gladly give up the title of "fastest dude in town" to gain a better chance of having a car that I can actually drive everyday. Not a car where there is always 'something' that I needs to be addressed, repaired, replaced, upgraded, modified, etc., etc., etc.

I'm not at all interested in being on the bleeding edge of performance.

Let's just say that I've "been there, done that" (in my 20's), and that's not a place that I ever want to go back to again.

I understand that you guys feel that you need to use Water/Meth to make decent power because of the crappy fuel you have out there. (I can see your point)

But Mike...a very well engineered FI kit that maximizes the efficiency of the hardware components (assuming the hardware components were properly selected for that application in the first place), will always produce more power than a kit with poorly engineered componants that are not very efficient, and do not work well together. (even if the software was spot on)

Now I know that I have access to 93 octane here in Texas, so yea, I have a better grade of fuel than you have in Cali.

So I guess that I can see why you feel that a Water/Meth setup is the better alternative to just using 100 octane unleaded race gas.

I was just saying that Water/Meth it's not the only way that you can make more power with the same FI kit. (supercharged or turbocharged)

BTW: I'm glad to see that you've figured out what you're going to do with your M3.

That year long nightmare was painful to read about, and it brought back some bad memories for me as well. I feel for you brother, since I was once in your shoes. The pursuit of big power is sometimes a rocky road, especially if your goal is to be the big kahuna.
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Last edited by Lemans_Blue_M; 03-06-2010 at 08:34 PM.
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      03-07-2010, 12:19 AM   #709
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rom3n View Post
We are not big fans of methanol. We understand that some customers like it but we prefere all of our products to run on 100% pump fuel. Like our current stage 1 and 2 VT kits our stage 3 VT product will be designed to run on pump.
Every FI BMW kit on the market is designed to run 100% on pump fuel, at least in the lower stages. If there is an option to run race fuel or WM, all the better, personally I don't see that option as a band aid, at all, you simply don't have the octane past a certain psi, it is normally at that point that WM is included, or even 93 octane in the case of your kits. Do you plan on running boost higher than 6.5psi on 91, or is that boost level the ceiling? Either way it is good to see that you guys are willing to do custom tunes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M View Post
Hey Drew,

You make a good point about a 50/50 Water/Meth setup being used to shore up the 91 craptane you guys have to settle for in socal.

But my post was intended to point out, that a very well engineered hardware package can actually help keep IAT's in check.

How?

Since a poorly designed hardware package (blower, interccooling system, intake manifold design, and all the intake piping) will actually create more HEAT that needs to be neutralized later.

The more heat you create, the more likely you will need a Water/Meth injection system to bring down the IAT's. (prior to entering the engine)

Poorly designed FI kits that restrict the air circulation to vital areas will result in higher engine bay temps. (like kits that block off large portions of the engine radiator)

Intercooler cores that are too large will also have a negative effect on the tuning as well (by blocking off other cooling mechanisms), even though conventional wisdom says a bigger intercooler always = better cooling.

That's not necessarily true in every case...

It's all about building a balanced FI system that maximizes the efficiency/power of the available airflow...while also selecting the properly engineered cooling components that will reduce the IAT's, plus an overall design that maintains the proper air flow throughout the engine bay.

While that may actually SOUND very simple on the surface, it's actually harder than you might think to pull this off.

Modern cars (including the M3) have very crowded engine bays. There is not a lot of room in there to accommodate a number of additional parts.

That requires some very innovative engineering solutions, that require a lot of R&D to figure out.

Because if you don't do your homework, the end result will be a FI kit that underperforms. Not to mention a number of performance related issues that are not easily solved.

As you can imagine, that would lead to some very unhappy customers.

You'd be surprised at how efficient the S65B40 engine and cooling system is, compared to the S54B32 in the E46 M3.

Remember, the S54 also uses a MAF while the S65 does not. It's a lot more difficult to tune the S54's ECU with that handicap (if you want to make 500+rwhp), and the fact that it's harder to keep the engine heat in check. (with that cast iron block that retains a lot of engine bay heat)

The S54 can still be made to run safely without Water/Meth injection, but I can see your point about it being an extra layer of protection if you are running high boost setup (9-11psi) without lower the CR of the engine.

I stand by my earlier statement:

Superior engineering beats suspect engineering hands down.
All great points, but I doubt even an incredibly well designed heat exchanger or FMIC could top WM injection in terms of how effective it is at cooling IAT's, it's significant, having said that I would never run a kit on my car that was not initially able to run efficient on 91 octane without WM.

In terms of how well a kit is designed, etc. of course you're right, but I would never just take anyone's word for it, especially if one has never inspected or seen all the parts, internally as well. Even BMW engineers have made mistakes after many years of R&D, the proof is in the pudding, the amount of miles driven with no major issues, etc. is a better way to answer those questions on how a kit will perform in terms of dealing with the heat FI creates on these HC motors.
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ESS VT2-625 SC 60-130MPH 6.80s - 11.30 @ 129.3 MPH 586WHP / 379WTQ
ESS VT3-750 - 60-130MPH 6.14s - 10.81 @ 135.13 MPH 690WHP/463WTQ
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Last edited by DLSJ5; 03-07-2010 at 12:45 AM.
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      03-11-2010, 05:28 PM   #710
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Roman any updates?
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      03-11-2010, 08:15 PM   #711
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Quote:
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Roman any updates?
Details on our new VT3 series kit will be released soon
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      03-13-2010, 12:27 AM   #712
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rom3n View Post
Details on our new VT3 series kit will be released soon
Oh goody . Was about to order VT2-600 Kit but will have to wait for new Vt3 specs. More Power? Release date? Specs Please...
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      03-14-2010, 10:37 AM   #713
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New manifold ready to go



sorry I had to LOL

[u2b]<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/H6Q4s_ZdvAQ&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/H6Q4s_ZdvAQ&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>[/u2b]
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      03-14-2010, 12:26 PM   #714
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^is this goin all the way to kazakhstan?

Bob/Borat i'm so excited an its not even my blower.. I want/need a ride when alls complete..

o btw, sick mani color...
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      03-14-2010, 05:19 PM   #715
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No it's Gucci's the Manifold is going to visit him in jail
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      03-15-2010, 12:56 PM   #716
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Stage I kit installed this weekend at IND. Very simple install and took about 3 hours.

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      03-15-2010, 01:09 PM   #717
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Quote:
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Stage I kit installed this weekend at IND. Very simple install and took about 3 hours.

Nate that black looks really nice great work !
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      03-15-2010, 01:10 PM   #718
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Nate that black looks really nice great work !
Thanks! I wish we had time to powder coat the valve covers. Maybe we can get that done before bimmerfest.
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      03-15-2010, 03:55 PM   #719
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Quote:
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Thanks! I wish we had time to powder coat the valve covers. Maybe we can get that done before bimmerfest.
You guys take awesome images!

Very nice ideas on the colours.

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      03-15-2010, 06:26 PM   #720
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
You guys take awesome images!

Very nice ideas on the colours.

Thanks! The intake manifold colors enhance the system in the looks department but nothing can beat that power delivery
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      03-15-2010, 06:46 PM   #721
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Quote:
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Thanks! The intake manifold colors enhance the system in the looks department but nothing can beat that power delivery
I know....Superchargers have this effect! It's proper laugh out loud fast!
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      03-15-2010, 08:02 PM   #722
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I know....Superchargers have this effect! It's proper laugh out loud fast!
It sure is

Logo shot

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      03-15-2010, 08:08 PM   #723
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black looks the best IMO..
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      03-16-2010, 12:37 AM   #724
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IND Vader Edition

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      03-16-2010, 01:17 AM   #725
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IND Vader Edition

I'll take two!
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      03-16-2010, 01:19 AM   #726
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Quote:
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black looks the best IMO..
+1 so nice
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