M3 6speed vs DCT

[urbo73]

6MT all the way.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by swamp2

We are all ignorant in some domains. Ignorant is not really an insult. I know it is hard to believe but one accepted defintion is simply lacking knowledge. It does not mean stupid, which is indeed an insult. Don't forget you are the one who seems to be proud about being right for the wrong reasons.

ignoramus n : an ignorant person [syn: know nothing, uneducated person]

We surely are all ignorant in most areas, but that was just as surely another standard swamp insult, followed by another standard swamp explanation that it wasn't an insult at all.

Bruce

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

ignoramus n : an ignorant person [syn: know nothing, uneducated person]

We surely are all ignorant in most areas, but that was just as surely another standard swamp insult, followed by another standard swamp explanation that it wasn't an insult at all.

Bruce

I call it like I see it. When you boast that being right for the wrong reasons is good and/or that it is what you want to be known for this is surely an appropriate reply and label. Keep up the good work for the Knights for the Defense of Poor Footie!

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Great White

The usage of the launch control breaks down the by 1/3 of it´s normal life time each time it´s used.

So that means you get three tries with LC and then your clutch is dead? Absolutely not so. I have used mine more than 3 times and my clutches are performing just fine. LC is no more wear than a good old fashioned clutch drop in a MT. However, I don't know the life expentancy of wet clutches vs. dry ones. I don't think they would be drastically different.

[footie]

Just to define an insult, if the person it is directed it classes it insulting then that is what it is and no buttering up or trying to tell it that it isn't will work.

Bottom line, it was intended as an insult.

We all make mistakes and get it wrong, I just found it funny that will getting it wrong I still proved to be correct in the end. Show me a case where you have been similar swamp.

All I can find is you being wrong and still being wrong after it's been tested.

SURGE/JERK - ENGINEERED - SURGE/JERK - ENGINEERED

Next LC and lessening the clutch life, 100% correct. Not so sure about how soon the damage will be terminal but it will be no worse than dumping the clutch at similar revs in a manual M3, that is logical.

[TLud]

Originally Posted by swamp2

So that means you get three tries with LC and then your clutch is dead? Absolutely not so. I have used mine more than 3 times and my clutches are performing just fine. LC is no more wear than a good old fashioned clutch drop in a MT. However, I don't know the life expentancy of wet clutches vs. dry ones. I don't think they would be drastically different.

I agree, but unfortunately the DCT is a sealed unit. I doubt that replacing the clutch in the DCT will be as easy as simply replacing the clutch in the 6MT.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by footie

Just to define an insult, if the person it is directed it classes it insulting then that is what it is and no buttering up or trying to tell it that it isn't will work.

Bottom line, it was intended as an insult.

It was intended to point out the absurdity in being proud of being right for the wrong reason. That is it.

Originally Posted by footie

We all make mistakes and get it wrong, I just found it funny that will getting it wrong I still proved to be correct in the end. Show me a case where you have been similar swamp.

All I can find is you being wrong and still being wrong after it's been tested.

SURGE/JERK - ENGINEERED - SURGE/JERK - ENGINEERED

Yup we all get it wrong sometimes and I FREELY admit when I do. I can point out a couple of occasions when it has happened. Then the progression is being wrong, being honest, admitting it, thanking the person who was right and moving on. That is my style.

If you are happy with the massively limited evidence on the surge issue that is fine (for you) but I say the jury is still out, as would anyone with a reasonable threshold of evidence. You can call this a fact if you like but I absolutely do not accept it. I clearly pointed out how the existing evidence is either flawed, not apples to apples or simply inconclusive, but you simply want to and do accept it. Differing standards of evidence for sure.

Originally Posted by footie

Next LC and lessening the clutch life, 100% correct. Not so sure about how soon the damage will be terminal but it will be no worse than dumping the clutch at similar revs in a manual M3, that is logical.

You really can't read can you? I never said LC will not reduce clutch life, period. I simply pointed out the atrocious error in saying each use decreases the life by 1/3rd of its original lifespan. If anyone says, implies or thinks otherwise compated to both of my points they are completely devoid of common sense.

[footie]

Originally Posted by swamp2

It was intended to point out the absurdity in being proud of being right for the wrong reason. That is it.

I noticed you left out my explanation why I made light of the situation.

Originally Posted by footie

I just found it funny that will getting it wrong I still proved to be correct in the end.

It was not absurd to look at it the way I did, in fact I think most would view it as humorous and OK, I accept your position but I was only explaining how it felt being called said remark.

Originally Posted by swamp2

Yup we all get it wrong sometimes and I FREELY admit when I do. I can point out a couple of occasions when it has happened. Then the progression is being wrong, being honest, admitting it, thanking the person who was right and moving on. That is my style.

If you are happy with the massively limited evidence on the surge issue that is fine (for you) but I say the jury is still out, as would anyone with a reasonable threshold of evidence. You can call this a fact if you like but I absolutely do not accept it. I clearly pointed out how the existing evidence is either flawed, not apples to apples or simply inconclusive, but you simply want to and do accept it. Differing standards of evidence for sure.

I would conclude that with three independent cars all showing the exact same difference between S1 and S5 as pretty conclusive. I am also interested how the evidence is not apples vs apples and how it is flawed, three independent tests showing the same results, hack even the land speed record only calls for two.

Originally Posted by swamp2

You really can't read can you? I never said LC will not reduce clutch life, period. I simply pointed out the atrocious error in saying each use decreases the life by 1/3rd of its original lifespan. If anyone says, implies or thinks otherwise compated to both of my points they are completely devoid of common sense.

I think you are miss reading thing here, I was in total agreement with you.

Stop being so paranoid.

[urbo73]

[Sovereignty]

this thread proves my previous finding:
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155019

[footie]

We have four similar independent results, one from a magazine, yourself, the OP and waremark. That to me looking like the manual is indeed the quicker of the two forms of transmission and only LC is giving the DCT car to edge up to the point where the manual car's better gearing throw the balance back to it, take away the LC with a rolling start and it's game over.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by footie

I would conclude that with three independent cars all showing the exact same difference between S1 and S5 as pretty conclusive. I am also interested how the evidence is not apples vs apples and how it is flawed, three independent tests showing the same results, hack even the land speed record only calls for two.

I made my points as the evidence emerged and posted them. They include:

1. Magazine test: MT M3 better broken in, was a press car (likely to be a slightly better performer) and could have had a better driver.
2. Post with some personal drag races: M-DCT won some and lost some.
3. iPhones and the like are not accurate enough to measure small differences.
4. Measuring small differences requires statistics.

We have differing standards of evidence and proof. That's it.

[dogears]

You guys are funny! Both amazing cars. I'd be happy to have either. Differences so small either one can win on any given day...IMHO.

(2009 M-DCT ordered today!)

[footie]

swamp,

You are still missing the point, the difference between S1 and S5 has nothing to do with either how well it engine is run in or the cars they happen to race against, it purely the fact 3 independent test conducted on 3 different DCT cars all show that S1 is quicker on full throotle acceleration runs.

That is pretty conclusive.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by footie

swamp,

You are still missing the point, the difference between S1 and S5 has nothing to do with either how well it engine is run in or the cars they happen to race against, it purely the fact 3 independent test conducted on 3 different DCT cars all show that S1 is quicker on full throotle acceleration runs.

That is pretty conclusive.

Yes, two different points. Is DCT faster than MT and is there acceleration differences between various Drivelogic modes. I contend that there is a serious lack of convincing evidence on both counts. You feel otherwise on both points. Again we have different standards of evidence, pure and simple. For me evidence means PROOF, not an isolated case or two with very close results and when trying to observe small differences. There has been no instrumented (via an accurate wheel system) tests showing a conclusive advantage for any S modes over any others. That is fact, not "pretty conclusive".

[footie]

Swamp,

Lets agree to disagree on this one.

It was pretty conclusive to me and I wouldn't be at all surprised if the other didn't piped in and said they each felt the same way.

I just wonder how many times the same result would have to happen before you actually believed in it, like it's not that there is any corners or real driving skill involved, just press the throttle and flick the paddle at the correct moment.

In fact you have made pretty strong claims on even less evidence than this, think back to the 7:29 GTR having more power than stock GTRs and all this was based on how the video compared against the ZR1 video on one straight section of the course which I might add is neither flat or without it's fair share on bumps and both were conducted on different day from each other without any prior knowledge of track or weather conditions.

This is not a personal dig at you, I only on highlighting your inconsistency in your methods and at times twist the evidence to suit your own ends, which I might add we all do, it is after all human nature.

[Advskier]

I really like my DCT.

[urbo73]

E90 6MT for the fastest M3 !

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by footie

Lets agree to disagree on this one.

We'll have to.

Originally Posted by footie

like it's not that there is any corners or real driving skill involved, just press the throttle and flick the paddle at the correct moment.

That is an absurd argument and more or less says there is no skill in drag racing. Utter nonsense. Why do we call the race between cars like the 997S, M3, IS-F and C63 a "drivers race"?

Originally Posted by footie

In fact you have made pretty strong claims on even less evidence than this, think back to the 7:29 GTR having more power than stock GTRs and all this was based on how the video compared against the ZR1 video on one straight section of the course which I might add is neither flat or without it's fair share on bumps and both were conducted on different day from each other without any prior knowledge of track or weather conditions.

1. Stop dredging the past. That thread is over and ended with you being incorrect, perhaps not on the principal point (in your view) but that is where it ended.

2. To anyone with a brain and any observation and math skills whatsoever that video and evidence shows a 480 hp car almost keeping up with one that is significantly lighter and that has 638 hp. There was no attempt to discern tenths of seconds or 10 or so hp. Different activity, drastically different sizes of effects being observed.

3. If you want to dig you should just bring up my "massively under rated" thread. But even there you will find my admission of jumping on the band wagon too quickly. I don't like to be right for the wrong reason.

[footie]

Originally Posted by swamp2

That is an absurd argument and more or less says there is no skill in drag racing. Utter nonsense.

In no way was I saying drag racing doesn't require skill, a cheap shot swamp. But I would say that doing a single run with a DCT car is as unskilled as you can get without placing the thing in D and letting it do it for you.

When each of us runs through the gears (you included) a simply flick of the paddle is all it takes, hardly powersliding at 120mph now is it.

[urbo73]

6MT brothers stick together. Why can't DCT guys do the same?

[Doc]

Uhh guys.. stop fighting already. The cars are quick in their own rights regardless. DCT has closer ratios to allow good mid speed range acceleration and the 6sp has lower final drive to compensate overall performance and really comes into its own when above 120mph. There is no real winner here guys..both are quick and offer either an analogue or digital experience, depending on your tastes and desires... seriously

PS. I am arranging a video run with a DCT coupe with sunroof AW/black on 19s.. waiting for owner to pile on some mileage first to make things more equal.Will weigh cars before we run on equal 95 octane fuel(plus 1 can NF black OB) levels.. VBox in each car..watch this space