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04-17-2007, 06:24 PM | #1 |
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Waiting lists in Europe???
I read a lot about waiting lists (especially from Americans) and deposits. Here in Switzerland it goes more like: "M3? Just wait for the brochure, then we discuss the details and then you order. Deposit? If you don't choose too strange options, we don't need that."
Are the dealers in the US just smarter than those in Europe or do we get enough Ms in Europe so there's no need for a waiting list? |
04-18-2007, 10:13 AM | #2 | |
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American and Cars demand both ways
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1. The US Price of a comparable BMW at todays exchange rate is so much cheaper in the US. Europeans dont normally buy American Made cars, so Americans have no real domestic compettitor to BMW (Cadillac Maybe) The Japanese cars are mass producred and even the performance versions are normally available in reasonable numbers fairly soon after launch. My 335Cab with all but Nav was $47,9 USD or 35,200K Euros the same car on the German website is 66K Euros with vat. 100% same options, I get Military/ Diplomatic discounts but 5K USD is not going to effect it much THATS NEARLY HALF PRICE ! 2. BMW NA and GMBH have worked hard to make sure the market has not become saturated by the M-3, Pent up demand allows for people to step down to a 335 and BMW has kept their numbers up. Americans assume it is also in short supply in Europe, We on a net forum know better however the Magazine reading American does not. It is next to impossible to export a M-3 Euro spec to the states with our differing safety and Emission standards. It makes no economic sense. The Other Way 3. Americans can buy X-5s at huge discounts to the Germans and German dealers allocations are often 9 Months out The same with the ML350 from Mercedes. They have lists shared with Audi of known vehicle brokers in the US and part of their sales aggreements often include you may not export clauses. The Dealers are SEVERELY Penalized whena vehicle Like the X-5 or ML-350 show up in Italy, Russia, Korea or anywhere else. The Rest of the World will pay dearly for the Well made SUV, It has become a status symbol. MB of North America will not sell me an ML on the Diplomat military program It is 56 percent of what a German Pays for one and 40 Percent of what an Italian pays (find that ODD) With the exchange rate it is quite profitable to send these SUVS to Europe, Pay the import fees and the VAT, convert to pass TUV and sell on the Market here. Now if they catch you end up on a broker list and MB, BMW and AUDI will make you life miserable with special legal departments to do just that. THe Warranty is still valid in the Europe but it goes from 4/50Miles US in BMWs to 2 yr Unlimited in Europe Its a game of supply and demand, to Europeans, Luxury SUVS have become status hot selling Vehicles. The M-3 is a Hot US market car, now if the Us imposed tariffs and the M-3 became $110K to equal the British market would it sell as many Probably not............................................... ..................... THe Same Corvette I can buy new at $43K USD with a very good warranty would cost $105K USD in the UK As a BMW/Porsche/MB/Reman car enthusiast I Like it this way As an American, I see we are putting our own car companies out of business buy not charging tariffs I can order a Vette and have it in 6 weeks, you can have a BMW in about the same time anywhere in Europe, except an X-5 If a Corvette was $43K USD or Around $3OK Euros would it sell ? Even if you added 19 percent VAT it would be a hit because it would be chaper than any Car and about what a VW Beetle Convertable costs ! |
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04-18-2007, 10:59 AM | #3 |
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I wasn't even going for the ridiculous price difference (we overpay 50% so that every American bum can afford a European luxury car)...
I was actually more interested in why some dealers would get their customers to get on a "list" and pay a deposit for a car of which not even the specs are out (they are now, but it already started before). |
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04-18-2007, 12:45 PM | #4 | |
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Difference
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In the US, performance cars are a status symbol, as well and in the Seventies and Early eighties, the demand got so bad that Honda initially, then Toyota dealers were preselling cars, they would take a deposit (Refundable normally of around $1000) and call you when they could get one in This just kept going, and dealers of high end sports cars, like Porsche BMW and Audi would fly journalists over and let them test the car Way before the final American Specs were released. Then the Media then started with rumors of new cars, often that a New M3, or the Boxster, or the special edition cars like the 911RS would be built and speculators and enthusists would put money down to #1 on the list. Example in 99 I put $1000 down to be the first to own the S-2000 Honda at MSRP (sticker price) at three different dealers When the S-2000 came out dealers were selling for $5000 or $10000 over MSRP to get one. I Had the number one spot at three dealers and 2 were no problem in selling at sticker, I kept one sold the other for $6000 profit over sticker The last dealer said my signed aggreement wasnt at MSRP and offered me his first one at $10,000 USD dollars over. I had a lawyer on retainer and put him on it, this one went all the hay to the head of Honda (many of whom faced bribery charges from some deals they did in the eighties) Honda said, and this is true of any car dealer aggreement in the US, that the MSRP in the United States stands for Manufactures Suggested Retail Pricing and the dealers could set whatever price they desired Our attourney filed a motion to Halt the dealer from selling the cars and the Judge upheld it. The papers were served and the dealer ignored and sold the car at 10,000 Over MSRP. About a week after this happened the dealer finally had sense enough to listen to his legal council. For ignoring the motion he offered us $5000 of his profit. We decided we wanted him to produce the car that was sold out from under-us. we had the VIN. The Judge agreed and asked both of us to propose a settlement...... Seemed to go well He didnt want to do much negotiating so we met again with the Judge and we agreed to non-binding arbitration. Long story short, He ended up producing my original deposit, the entire profit he made on the vehicle with interest based on T-Bills and would sell me any Honda I wanted for his cost Invoice less all holdbacks and incentives. Got a check for $13K and some change. THIS happens all the time in the US, last year with the Shelby Cobra and Z-06 Corvette. This year in the US its the New Special Shelby cobra the M-3, the R-8 Audi and I heard of some special edition Evo thats rumored. I have a friend who is the owner of a Porsche/ BMW/ Audi and Volkswagen store that in 1999-2000 when VW showed a 12 cylinder sports car, I cannot remember the concept name, His dealership took 20 deposits of a Grand for right to buy the first one at Msrp. since he would only get one a year, and it ending up not being made (can you say Lamborgini instead) he had the deposits for 1-2 Years before people asked for them back. Multiply this times the amount of concept cars and rumored cars and it easily got to be $200K in an account earning interest. Crazy game Americans play it I know some awfully shrewd Swiss who If I owered them a deal that they new they could make money on like this I would have the money overnight. Probably too much detail but hope it helps |
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04-18-2007, 10:40 PM | #5 |
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Ohhh the Vdub 12 cylinder is the infamous W12. man that was a sweet concept. i loved it in PGR3 it was my baby such a stable platform to race off of. Thats just a game anyway what credit does it really have lol.
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04-19-2007, 02:11 PM | #7 | |
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(Although personally I'd be fine waiting in line, but I think most people would be pissed ) |
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04-20-2007, 04:09 PM | #8 | |
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Who's the tool now? |
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04-20-2007, 06:31 PM | #9 | |
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You seem to know alot about international differences in car pricing - your post was interesting reading. I have heard people say stuff like "BMW's are like chevy's in Europe/Germany" AKA - even the cops drive them, they are not viewed as a 'status symbol' or priced prohibitively expensive. Basically, arguing that americans are being scammed into believing that BMW's are special (and paying out the a$$ for them), when really they are nothing. I obviously found this impossible to believe for obvious reasons, and posts such as yours paint a much different picture. It seems more like the price in Europe/UK would mean that BMW's are much more exclusive there than they are in the US, where they can be had for half price. More clarification appreciated. |
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04-21-2007, 04:38 AM | #10 | |
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Yes, cops do drive them over here. And the non-M models aren't exclusive. So why do we pay 30-50% more? Because we don't have a choice! BMW (and others) evened out price differences within Europe, i.e. it's not cheaper buying it in the country next to yours. Why is it cheaper in the US? Because they wouldn't sell that many over there otherwise. Now BWM needs to have an average revenue of X% per car; if they sell it below that in one country, they have to sell it above that in another. That's how I came to the conclusion that Europeans pay for the discount Americans get. |
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04-21-2007, 07:32 AM | #11 | |
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04-21-2007, 01:13 PM | #12 | |
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Second: My dealer didn't "get" me on the waiting list for the M3. I asked to be included and as a courtesy (good business practice), he included me. This obviously gives me first dibs when the car becomes available. Sure, my salesperson could have shrugged me off and told me to come back at the appropriate time. He certainly doesn't need my order to make a sale when the M3 finally arrives. But, if he wants my loyalty (my repeat business and customer referrals), he will treat me with the respect I deserve as a valued customer. |
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04-21-2007, 02:37 PM | #13 | |
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You mean you would pay $100K USD for an M3
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I am sorry but $100K $110 K with options would kep a lot of people from standing in line to buy the car especially in America Maybe why I like being an American, ok I am in Germany. and If Germans could by an American Product cheaper than I could, I would be pissed. |
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04-21-2007, 03:24 PM | #14 |
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I'm confused, can someone please clear this up:
What accounts for the high price of a BMW in Europe? Is it tax & tariffs (AKA the governments fault) or is it BMW's pricing decision? Also, if they are so expensive then how can they be so common, unless everyone is rich compared to the US. (AKA everyone makes double what Americans make, given the same cost of living, therefore it is just as easy to buy the car even tho it costs double) I don't understand this phenomenon. where you at gmund |
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04-21-2007, 04:13 PM | #15 | |
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About perception of BMWs over here: 1 & 3 series: common 5,6,7,M: luxury average salary in Switzerland: ~$50k/year graduate job salary: $80k-120k/year Now I don't think this is the double of comparable jobs in the US. And as the cost of living are much higher here, there is definitely not more money left to spend on cars. |
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04-21-2007, 05:09 PM | #16 | |
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However, doesn't the 3 series cost double what it does in the US. So how is it possible that a car with that price tag in Europe is 'common'. For instance, if the 328i was $60k in the US, no one would buy it. And if that is how much it costs in Europe then how could it possibly be common? And why would anyone buy it? thanks swiss still confused tho. |
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04-21-2007, 05:46 PM | #17 | |
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will get one... And remember: We let our cops drive the 5 series! :-) |
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04-21-2007, 09:19 PM | #18 |
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'cos of the relatively week dollar, most luxury cars here in Nigeria are brought in privately from the US. Our official BMW/Landrover dealer's cars (who sources from/through Europe) end up being up to 80% more expensive than the privates. Private impotation from the US is now big business
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04-21-2007, 09:37 PM | #19 |
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America is such a wonderful country. I'll be able to buy an M3 in about 1.5 years for $65K while others are talking about 6 digit price tags.
I do wish we were getting a better investment on all the money we've thrown at the Iraqis - our gas should be about 1 dollar per gallon instead of 3 per gallon when we spend about a billion dollars per month on the middle east.
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04-21-2007, 09:48 PM | #20 | |
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04-22-2007, 02:42 AM | #21 | |
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Europeans versus Americans BMWs and status
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absolutely love it, Almost Married a Swiss Girl. Then I did The biggest factor is the exchange rate (Read carefully 2001/2002 1 Dollar= 1.20 Euro 2006/2007 1 Euro = 1.36 Dollars What does a 48 percent difference tell you ? First Europeans have many choices in cars we do not, Gm only offers the Cadillac line, and the Corvette over here. Most Europeans do not trade cars as often as Americans and any upper middle class Europeans, are taxed to the point that we Americans cannot believe. Swiss Man, I Think a 330 in Switzerland is the 328 in the US equipped the same is Swiss 68K CHK (Swiss Francs) or US $55 thousand USD The same car in the US is $32,995. Same equipment I am going to post some facts on Germany, but most are true for all EU or European countries. Americans can take a Mortgage out to buy a house and the Interest and Property taxes are deductable off their personal income tax The Europeans cannot deduct the Interest or property taxes off their personal income taxes BMW offers in Germany a 4 cylinder 2 liter gas motor E90 Sedan 318I with a 6 spd radio coth interior,manual ac heating and 16" wheels for 29K Euros or 40K USD (ok includes VAT tax ) A Toyota Camry has a nicer interior than this model and is US $19K with more equipment. In Europe the Value added tax VAT on items purchased is 19 percent an is included in the price in some States you may have 8-9 Percent at the most The Europeans pay about 6 Euro a Gallon for Premium fuel thats $ 8.15 a gallon converted Americans pay $3.25 a gallon on average for Premium or 2.39 Euros Most Europeans Do not put the badge on their new car, so you cant tell if you are passing a Diesel, a 318 or 335 unless you can count exhausts To confuse even more you can order a 140 HP Diesel with the M Sport package ? Looks like the same as a car that costs twice as much ? THe 3 Series is the Bread and butter car for BMW, along with the 1 Series THe entry Level BMW is the 1 series which is quite a car The 335/M is pretty High end for most Europeans the 5 series, the 6 and the 7 are for the more well off The current trend for the the upper class is the High end SUVs A Cayenne X-5 and the New ML are the Trendy cars here. GM sells quite a few Opels which they do not send to the US, including a 2 seet metal top convertable French cars are also very available Ford the focus and other Models we never see. A Jeep here is 50K Euro a PT Cruiser 40K Euro A Corvette is 80K Euros a Z06 125K Euros PICKem-Up trucks Are almost non existant, they drive Vans I hope this gives a more accurate picture of what the autos cost in Europe, companies like Kia, Hyundai, Toyota, Honda and Mazda are getting a bigger share of the market, but tarriffs keep the on level with European manufactures. Living in Europe is way more expensive than anywhere in the States in many ways, after taxes little is left for automobiles. Out of class mobility is rare here, if your family has money, you will likely end up in the same class as your family, THe exchange rate has killed the Americans spending advantage in Europe in the late 90s-2002 I used to come here and pay $50 USD for a decent hotel with a bath and breakfast in a small hotel in Salzberg or even in most of Switzerland now Its $120 for the same place at the same time. Americans are lucky we pay very little in taxes compared to the Europeans Now a European can vacation in the States for a fraction of what it costs in Europe, I know several well educated europeans who take virtually empy suitcases and then shop at our outlet malls and dept stores in the states They launder their clothes, once and have saved so much on premium brand clothes they more than paid for their plane fare. Its a crazy word we live in, and it has become flatter, I went to Romania and Bulgaria in 03 and bought a piece of land in a ski area for $10K USD, I sold 1/2 of it this January and it more than paid for an M3. Alas we always have the regrets,in 99 a 3 bedroom house in Croatia, clear title, 50 feet from the adriatic with beach frontage for $35K USD now worth $300K A used BMW E-30 in good shape with inspection is $1000 I see more BMWs on my way to work than anywhere I have been in the US Most are 3 series, some 5s and 1s. Ok so much for brevity Hope this paints a better picture |
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04-22-2007, 10:11 PM | #22 |
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That was fascinating. seriously.
But I still don't get how if BMW's are so expensive in Europe, (and if anything cost of living is higher there), then how can there possibly be so many 3 series driving around... I think the answer is that German tariffs cause imported cars such as US Chevy, or Japanese Toyota to become equal in price to BMW? As a result, a German will be choosing between a $40kUSD Camry vs. a $40kUSD 3 series? Is that right? |
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