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      10-29-2010, 07:17 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by Advskier View Post
He drives an Audi, so he couldn't be interested in handling
Yea but sad that BMW cannot offer me something like R8.
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      10-29-2010, 07:48 PM   #156
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Yea but sad that BMW cannot offer me something like R8.
"Cannot" is a silly comment... of course they "could" if they wished to. The company chooses not to for whatever reason. Maybe there isn't enough profit in it? Maybe they choose to focus their engineering efforts elsewhere.

Do you really think that if the M division set out to build an R8 beater they couldn't do it
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      10-29-2010, 08:20 PM   #157
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Where are you getting that the S4 is 150 hp less?
Read my post again... It's 150 hp or so less than my M3... If Im comparing my lap times in my M3 vs the S4. My M3 is not quite stock.
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      10-29-2010, 08:51 PM   #158
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Quote:
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Yea but sad that BMW cannot offer me something like R8.
oh come on!!!....R8 is equivalent of a pig wearing lipstick...sure its pretty and.....ummmm.....hmmmmmm.....its also....ummmm...its a nice looking car!
I KILLED my buddies R8......and when i told him how much I paid.....he was PISSED!
now the R8 with the big 10er under the hood....fast as hell.....but how long of a list can we make of cars that are at the same price or cheaper that can out perform it!...
R8.....pffft!
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      10-29-2010, 09:58 PM   #159
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Umm... isn't that what my whole post was about?

That BOTH cars can not do 30 laps out of the box... (OEM)
my point is exclude track pad since every street car will need it to track properly, the m3 engine can withstand 30 laps no problem. the s4 engine will most likely overheat due to that supercharger as evidenced with most FI cars.
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      10-29-2010, 09:59 PM   #160
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Yea but sad that BMW cannot offer me something like R8.
cannot or don't feel the need to? the m3 is pretty close to the r8 v8 performance wise and it has a real boot and 2 rear seats to boost.

....and just rwd.

r8 is meh. if there is anyone out there that can produce a car that can go toe to toe with the best of the best out there, it would be bmw if the m engineer can somehow get past the marketing bone head at bmw.

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      10-29-2010, 10:00 PM   #161
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Do you represent a group of people around here? Speak for yourself dude, you represent no one around here.

Of course the S4 would be capable of 30 leisurely laps, but it won't be capable of 30 against the clock laps for the simple reason that the S4 was not built with the track as an objective...you'll probably see engine overheating, brake fading, the things that one will usually see when tracking a car that was not built for track....

whereas the M3 was built so as to be tracked from time to time...read the owner manual, it says there (oh wait, you are not an M3 owner )

a lot of guys around here track their M3's...you tell them why the M3 is not capable of 30 laps, and they will laugh in your face.
I'm a fan of the M3, and have written more accurate words of praise in this forum than most - and nobody who knows what they're doing on track will laugh in my face.

In brief, brakes are a clear problem on the current M3, just as they were on '95 E36 and '04 E46 models that have graced our garage.

You are either unfamiliar with track use, or are a beginner, in which case you haven't yet begun to challenge the car. The brake weakness is well known - to people who actually know stuff.

People who know what they're doing on track routinely upgrade M3 brakes, because they're not up to multiple hot laps. Period. Beginners won't challenge them, but experienced folks absolutely do.

Your assertion about the S4 is ridiculous. At a guess, the Audi will also overcook the brakes when doing multiple hot laps, and also tear up the front sneakers even more than the bimmer, but it's also built to run just as hard and long as the M3 is on the autobahns. At a guess, the only difference will be increased front tire wear.

Lastly, I speak for myself, but can represent the "people who know stuff" segment of this forum more often than not. In this case, I represent trackwise folks who know about the traditional M3 moderate brake weakness. Obviously not including yourself, of course.

Bruce

PS - The Audi S4 is one hell of a car, clearly superior to any 335 iteration, but not able to compete on track or drag strip with the M3. Can't believe it was intended to, either.
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      10-29-2010, 10:10 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by graider View Post
why wouldn't the m3 stand up to 30 laps? i haven't heard one that couldn't.

if you are refer to the pad, then name one street car that can run 30 laps on the track with oem stock pad.
M3 brakes are a weakness on track, period. Folks who go fast with them tell me they're already starting to fade after a couple of laps, and are mostly gone after a couple more.

30 laps is arbitrary, but you can get through thirty laps with about any Porsche I know of. The last few will have you backing off if you're a hot shoe, but compared to BMW brakes, they're pure gold.
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      10-29-2010, 10:17 PM   #163
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my point is exclude track pad since every street car will need it to track properly, the m3 engine can withstand 30 laps no problem. the s4 engine will most likely overheat due to that supercharger as evidenced with most FI cars.
If by "most", you mean the 135/335 cars, you're correct, but you'll find tons of Subarus and Mitsus happily lapping everybody with zero problems.

And VWs, for that matter.

I expect that BMW will get the turbo right with the new M3, but they've certainly gotten egg on the corporate face with the current x35 cars.
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      10-29-2010, 10:35 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
M3 brakes are a weakness on track, period. Folks who go fast with them tell me they're already starting to fade after a couple of laps, and are mostly gone after a couple more.

30 laps is arbitrary, but you can get through thirty laps with about any Porsche I know of. The last few will have you backing off if you're a hot shoe, but compared to BMW brakes, they're pure gold.
Agree with the m3, even with upgraded pads doubt would they last 30 laps driven decently fast.

But Porsche is not the holy Grail, I have fellow track friends who have issues with the brakes tracking them. GT 911 are the one probably immune
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      10-29-2010, 11:07 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by gthal View Post
"Cannot" is a silly comment... of course they "could" if they wished to. The company chooses not to for whatever reason. Maybe there isn't enough profit in it? Maybe they choose to focus their engineering efforts elsewhere.

Do you really think that if the M division set out to build an R8 beater they couldn't do it
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Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
oh come on!!!....R8 is equivalent of a pig wearing lipstick...sure its pretty and.....ummmm.....hmmmmmm.....its also....ummmm...its a nice looking car!
I KILLED my buddies R8......and when i told him how much I paid.....he was PISSED!
now the R8 with the big 10er under the hood....fast as hell.....but how long of a list can we make of cars that are at the same price or cheaper that can out perform it!...
R8.....pffft!
Woulda, coulda, shoulda....lol.

Even "Toyota" has something that will handle the R8 V10.
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      10-29-2010, 11:21 PM   #166
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Woulda, coulda, shoulda....lol.

Even "Toyota" has something that will handle the R8 V10.
i'm seriously think bmw is avoiding competition with car like gt3 rs, r8, etc... or they really have gone into the wrong direction.

LFA is god. r8 v10 meh compare to the LFA
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      10-29-2010, 11:30 PM   #167
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i'm seriously think bmw is avoiding competition with car like gt3 rs, r8, etc... or they really have gone into the wrong direction.

LFA is god. r8 v10 meh compare to the LFA
Nah...I was just poking fun.

The reality is that there is no money in a supercar like the LF A. Lexus is going to lose bucket loads of cash to bring it to market, but they are speculating that they can continue to grow their F division and sell more cars in the long run. That is what BMW and the other Tier 1 brands really need to be concerned about. Audi was at least able to tap their Lambo resources to make the V10 work.

If the IS F is this good a competitor in it's first generation and the LF A is as remarkable as it appears Lexus will compete on a much scarier level for the Germans.

At this point, BMW is only concerned with selling the most units and making the most money....and as a business this isn't a bad thing. The 328, X1, 128 are examples of this. They are not "true" luxury and are not appealing to true enthusiasts. Being a successful business is not a bad thing at all, but it sure will be interesting to see how the market shapes up over the next few years, as emissions standards and such limit what performance cars can be.
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      10-29-2010, 11:49 PM   #168
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if history repeats itself against as how lexus/toyota gained market share in the auto market, it can get quite interesting in the sport car scene as lexus is no joke if they really serious about it.

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Originally Posted by Cdnrockies View Post
Nah...I was just poking fun.

The reality is that there is no money in a supercar like the LF A. Lexus is going to lose bucket loads of cash to bring it to market, but they are speculating that they can continue to grow their F division and sell more cars in the long run. That is what BMW and the other Tier 1 brands really need to be concerned about. Audi was at least able to tap their Lambo resources to make the V10 work.

If the IS F is this good a competitor in it's first generation and the LF A is as remarkable as it appears Lexus will compete on a much scarier level for the Germans.

At this point, BMW is only concerned with selling the most units and making the most money....and as a business this isn't a bad thing. The 328, X1, 128 are examples of this. They are not "true" luxury and are not appealing to true enthusiasts. Being a successful business is not a bad thing at all, but it sure will be interesting to see how the market shapes up over the next few years, as emissions standards and such limit what performance cars can be.
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      10-30-2010, 11:39 AM   #169
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if history repeats itself against as how lexus/toyota gained market share in the auto market, it can get quite interesting in the sport car scene as lexus is no joke if they really serious about it.
I agree!
the LFA was a money loser from the start and Toyota knew that. Although they had each of the 500 units spoken for before it's actual release date, they lost money on every unit....they built it from scratch....no cross platform sharing.....and ten yrs to make!
This car was a test bed and now they are going to use this experience, ideas and technologies to build high performance sports cars.
Now that this car has been released, received world wide praise from the automotive industry, journalists and the public, no one will be shocked when Lexus builds and releases a high performance sports car.
Lets face it....when we all heard that Lexus was going to put up a sports car with a base price of $375,000...how many times did we hear "what were they thinking, who the hell will spend that kind of money on a Lexus??!!!"..."For that money, I would rather buy....."
Toyota is a very smart company.....and I personally think we are going to see some outstanding sports cars coming from them in the very near future.
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      10-30-2010, 01:52 PM   #170
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Agree with the m3, even with upgraded pads doubt would they last 30 laps driven decently fast.

But Porsche is not the holy Grail, I have fellow track friends who have issues with the brakes tracking them. GT 911 are the one probably immune
I agree that Porsche guys often use track pads, but in my experience (not to be considered as universal), it's more often than not because track pads offer more immediate and progressive bite throughout a session - or season, for that matter. As you know, even if it's not a case of obvious need as with the M3, folks often run with track pads (and sneakers) because it's way cheaper if you're a track junkie.

YMMV.

Bruce

PS - While we're on the subject, late model Vettes (Z51, Grand Sport) seem to have extremely good track-worthy brakes, as well.
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      12-09-2010, 01:34 AM   #171
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Bruce, for someone that claims to do lots of tracking you don't know much about what causes poor braking performance........ wait for it......... WEIGHT.

There is nothing wrong with the brakes on the M3, actually for a road car or a short track with low speeds they are quite adequate, 14.2" rotors front, 13.8" rotors rear, relatively large pads and good brake torque numbers right out of the box. The car is just to damn heavy, and this is true for many cars today. All of the safety features, and options have added up over the years and weight of cars is creeping up.

The 2011 Audi S4 uses 12.6" front rotors and 11.6" rear rotors and sliding calipers........ How well do you think they will take 30 laps carrying 4000 + LBS????
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      07-09-2014, 11:19 AM   #172
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Okay... Everyone needs to calm down about Audis not handling. Most new Audis outperform Bmws anyways. Old Bmws were good cars... but now you cannot say their "driver cars". I'm not a pure Audi fanboy or Bmw fanboy, I like both brands equally.

Just wanted to end this B.S about Audis not handling well...
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      07-09-2014, 11:31 AM   #173
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Thanks for ending it 3.5 years later....

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      07-15-2014, 04:04 PM   #174
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