Warranty Void!!!

[satinghostrider]

Yeah I agree with PencilGeek that most of the people here who have increased the rev limiter do not have problems with bent exhaust valves. Driving it wrongly and over-revving it will cause it. While we all know that the valve springs in this S65 is not too good and have little margin in it, I dont think its something BMW will admit to. In most cases, we as consumers will be on the losing end. I suspect strongly to have a bent exhaust valve (Can be confirmed for sure once engine is stripped) and I am on a DCT. I dont know how it happened but I am very certain on 2 things.

1. Rev limiter was not removed. I will get someone to analyze the ECU independently to check if there was any limiters removed and the highest rev I have shifted at and if I did hit the limiter, at what RPM was that. This would confirm for sure.

2. I never shift past 8,000rpm and have hit the limiter a few times before the software was updates due to the timing of the shifts. Those with the earlier software will know what I am on about.

I have got a mechanic to use a strobe via the spark plug slots to view the surface of the pistons inside my car and it appears that cylinder 5 and 7 don't look the same as the rest in terms of wear and tear. They look kinda burnt. It was not very clear but there were some differences. They say its nothing to worry about but the rest of the cylinders looks fine. Incidentally, 5 and 7 registered a lower compression also as compared from the rest of the cylinders.

I will be stripping down the engine soon for a complete rebuild and will post the findings. That way we know for sure what went wrong.

Cheers!

Originally Posted by PencilGeek

I believe Dinan would refuse to cover the claim for one simple reason: raising the rev limiter didn't bend your valves -- YOU bent them by driving it that way.

If you raise your RPM limiter then bend some valves, that's all the proof that BMW needs to blame it on the ECU -- even if the overrev was logged before your ECU modification. I personally think Dinan would also refuse to cover any bent valves because even though the dealer blamed your driving in conjunction with the ECU modifications, you'll never be able to take the element of your driving out of the equation and only blame it on the ECU. The bottom line: Dinan won't cover your claim either...they'd be crazy if they did.

And just to be fair about this: we don't need to limit this as if we're only talking about Dinan. They are just the company mentioned used in the examples because of the belief that having a Dinan product indemnify you against bent valves. Even if AA or anybody else had the same warranty as Dinan, they'd be crazy to cover it as well. Nobody will cover this -- they'll all run away from it, and the dealer's claim in front of a judge will win the day.

[TLud]

Originally Posted by H Bomb

very sorry to hear this

that is why i have always used Dinan's software on my last 2 M's and on this one

Originally Posted by H Bomb

nope not confused. after 3 modded M cars i know what was covered and what wasn't while i watched others just have issues.

now you say dinan may have covered it, well they never gave me a hard time and i wouldn't of known the difference so that is good warranty to me.

people love to slam dinan but after 3 dinan cars and no issues with warranty, but hey i been wrong before

i won't agrue on the matter bc it is pointless people can believe what they want

thanks

Originally Posted by H Bomb

no offense but no i never needed a new engine. my Dinan cars never gave me any trouble like other modded cars give. i had 80,000 miles on my Dinan S2 M5 and 65,000 miles on my Dinan S2 M3.

You seem to be under the impression that because none of your Dinan-modded cars in the past gave you problems, this one won't either. I agree with you 100% that any Dinan mods you get probably won't give you any issues. The Dinan flash won't give you significant power gains, but it also probably won't harm your engine. However, that is beside the point of this thread.

The tune/flash doesn't have to cause the problem to void your warranty coverage, it just has to be there. If, for whatever reason, a design or manufacturing defect in your motor forces you to replace it, you'll be in exactly the same boat as anyone else with a tune. Before replacing your engine, you better believe your dealer will check with Germany to make sure they'll cover it. And since you got your tune done at the dealership, that little tidbit of info will be passed along as well. Of course, the boys over in Germany don't give a hoot about the relationship with Dinan, so you end up in the same boat as anyone else: at the mercy of BMW and/or your dealership.

Dinan hasn't been able to pay their customers rebates for many months now, so what do you think the odds are that they don't cry "engine defect" and tell you BMW needs to warranty it? So, now you're stuck in the middle of two sides saying the other should pay for it.

Based on the information we have now, the odds of your engine having some sort of defect is really small, but it's still a risk. And having a modified ECU, regardless of where it came from, puts you at risk for warranty denial. Heck, even if you don't have a tune, BMW may try to blame it on a track day or something else. And if that happens, you're very naive if you think Dinan will step in and save you.

[duk]

Wow sorry to hear all this, hope things work out for you!

[aussiem3]

The bottom line from 90% of the posts is that getting an ECU tune is a risky job and unless you have a very big bank balance don't do it. I am so tempted to get a good complete exhaust system but with the CEL issue, and only a tune will make it go away has completely put me off it.

I had a HJS HFC in my E46 M3 and a lot of people mainly in the USA were having CEL issues. But I didn't have. I don't know what it was. But from what I've heard from on of the Australian installers is that putting a HFC including Akropovic in an E92 M3 will set the CEL off and only a tune will fix it.

Given how BMW have been reacting to warranty claims lately with the GFC I will not get a ECU tune full stop. There is nothing in this world I can do to prove an ECU tune didn't cause an engine malfunction. I don't think anybody can prove it.

[BRDHNTR]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

Yeah I agree with PencilGeek that most of the people here who have increased the rev limiter do not have problems with bent exhaust valves. Driving it wrongly and over-revving it will cause it. While we all know that the valve springs in this S65 is not too good and have little margin in it, I dont think its something BMW will admit to. In most cases, we as consumers will be on the losing end. I suspect strongly to have a bent exhaust valve (Can be confirmed for sure once engine is stripped) and I am on a DCT. I dont know how it happened but I am very certain on 2 things.

1. Rev limiter was not removed. I will get someone to analyze the ECU independently to check if there was any limiters removed and the highest rev I have shifted at and if I did hit the limiter, at what RPM was that. This would confirm for sure.

2. I never shift past 8,000rpm and have hit the limiter a few times before the software was updates due to the timing of the shifts. Those with the earlier software will know what I am on about.

I have got a mechanic to use a strobe via the spark plug slots to view the surface of the pistons inside my car and it appears that cylinder 5 and 7 don't look the same as the rest in terms of wear and tear. They look kinda burnt. It was not very clear but there were some differences. They say its nothing to worry about but the rest of the cylinders looks fine. Incidentally, 5 and 7 registered a lower compression also as compared from the rest of the cylinders.

I will be stripping down the engine soon for a complete rebuild and will post the findings. That way we know for sure what went wrong.

Cheers!

Sounds to me like the best reason to get a stroker kit!

[H Bomb]

actually i found great gains with the new software i got and midpipe combo

but your right i would assume there conservative tuning would relate to less problems.

and this rebate problem i am sorry to hear, i can't defend on this as i just got discounts not rebate. in the past i do remember the rebates taking awhile to get, but on the parts side anytime i had something it was fixed that day no questions asked, so i guess that is why i went back

but your right i hope i never never fall into the problem of needing a new engine and wonder who if anyone will cover it as i am not blind there is a big difference btw a 30k part and a 3k part

Originally Posted by TLud

You seem to be under the impression that because none of your Dinan-modded cars in the past gave you problems, this one won't either. I agree with you 100% that any Dinan mods you get probably won't give you any issues. The Dinan flash won't give you significant power gains, but it also probably won't harm your engine. However, that is beside the point of this thread.

The tune/flash doesn't have to cause the problem to void your warranty coverage, it just has to be there. If, for whatever reason, a design or manufacturing defect in your motor forces you to replace it, you'll be in exactly the same boat as anyone else with a tune. Before replacing your engine, you better believe your dealer will check with Germany to make sure they'll cover it. And since you got your tune done at the dealership, that little tidbit of info will be passed along as well. Of course, the boys over in Germany don't give a hoot about the relationship with Dinan, so you end up in the same boat as anyone else: at the mercy of BMW and/or your dealership.

Dinan hasn't been able to pay their customers rebates for many months now, so what do you think the odds are that they don't cry "engine defect" and tell you BMW needs to warranty it? So, now you're stuck in the middle of two sides saying the other should pay for it.

Based on the information we have now, the odds of your engine having some sort of defect is really small, but it's still a risk. And having a modified ECU, regardless of where it came from, puts you at risk for warranty denial. Heck, even if you don't have a tune, BMW may try to blame it on a track day or something else. And if that happens, you're very naive if you think Dinan will step in and save you.

[M-Maika]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

Yeah I agree with PencilGeek that most of the people here who have increased the rev limiter do not have problems with bent exhaust valves. Driving it wrongly and over-revving it will cause it. While we all know that the valve springs in this S65 is not too good and have little margin in it, I dont think its something BMW will admit to. In most cases, we as consumers will be on the losing end. I suspect strongly to have a bent exhaust valve (Can be confirmed for sure once engine is stripped) and I am on a DCT. I dont know how it happened but I am very certain on 2 things.

1. Rev limiter was not removed. I will get someone to analyze the ECU independently to check if there was any limiters removed and the highest rev I have shifted at and if I did hit the limiter, at what RPM was that. This would confirm for sure.

2. I never shift past 8,000rpm and have hit the limiter a few times before the software was updates due to the timing of the shifts. Those with the earlier software will know what I am on about.

I have got a mechanic to use a strobe via the spark plug slots to view the surface of the pistons inside my car and it appears that cylinder 5 and 7 don't look the same as the rest in terms of wear and tear. They look kinda burnt. It was not very clear but there were some differences. They say its nothing to worry about but the rest of the cylinders looks fine. Incidentally, 5 and 7 registered a lower compression also as compared from the rest of the cylinders.

I will be stripping down the engine soon for a complete rebuild and will post the findings. That way we know for sure what went wrong.

Cheers!

I think you may have more then one exhaust valve bent.
Normally if it´s due to a overrev you may end up bending more exhaust valves.
when you say that cylinder 5 and 7 are with a lower compression, that is not good.

Will wait for your info after stripping down the engine.

Best Regards,

Maika

[Georgeair]

Originally Posted by badfish

If you knew how much he paid for his M3 over there this statement would be even more true... Here's a used E90 for sale over there.

Yeah, but that's only like $180K US.....

[satinghostrider]

Originally Posted by Georgeair

Yeah, but that's only like $180K US.....

What does that get you there over in the continental US?
Damn restroking the car is gonna be a blast but the shipping price to US for the engines, I fell off my chair and never got up.

[satinghostrider]

Originally Posted by M-Maika

I think you may have more then one exhaust valve bent.
Normally if it´s due to a overrev you may end up bending more exhaust valves.
when you say that cylinder 5 and 7 are with a lower compression, that is not good.

Will wait for your info after stripping down the engine.

Best Regards,

Maika

Yeah only way is to strip it down and I'll know for sure. It will be in about 2 weeks time. I will start a new thread for this rebuild.

[H Bomb]

what does the car do when you bend the valves?? any particular noises etc to listen for or will it just not run right?? man really sorry to hear this again after seeing what they cost there

[satinghostrider]

Originally Posted by H Bomb

what does the car do when you bend the valves?? any particular noises etc to listen for or will it just not run right?? man really sorry to hear this again after seeing what they cost there

I am getting a weird ticking sound from 1.5k to 2k rpm. Above 3k rpm, whole engine feels rough. Anyway I find voiding my cars warranty in 3 days is a joke. Not only that, they have failed to make any mention of th problem I outlined to them. My dealer also sent me another letter stating the car is NORMAL. It is definitely NOT NORMAL! In light of either the dealer or BMW ASIA addressing the problem or even talking to me about it,
they simply void the warranty of the ENGINE AND THE DRIVETRAIN even when I have no problems with the drivetrain itself. Not withstanding the fact that the dealer screwed up my DCT gearbox oil change once and extended 6 months warranty to it. Now there is nothing on that too.

I think the guys sitting at BMW ASIA are incompetant.
They lied to me on the following as seen from the letter.

1. My car is normal and they just voided the warranty for both. Decision only took 3 days. WEIRD. Nothing was discussed with me at all. If they strongly believed the car is normal, what's up with the voiding of warranty? Just does not make sense. If car is believed to be normal and they think nothing is to be claimed, why void? I mean I just find all this a circus.

2. No option to reinstate warranty.

It would be at least something if I could get the drivetrain warranty back. It is not fair eapecially when the dealer screwed this one up post run-in. Makes me even believe that the dealer and BMW Asia are really a disgrace to BMW Group for having treatment to customers like this. While ther is a risk to everything we do, I think it should be limited to wherever the problem resides. I have ways to get the car back to it's peak but what if tomorrow the dct fails due to a long term effect of the wrong oil change?

Moreover, they have yet to prove that the things I did to the car affected the engine. Maybe it did maybe it didn't. But where in the hell does voiding the drivetrain comes from when they have not proven on the engine side. Pretty disgusting agency we have here in Asia together with the people sitting there. Looks like they can do whatever they want and get away with it!! Perhaps an overdue promotion and a fat bonus that they missed. Maybe that'd what this is all about. LOL.

[H Bomb]

is this tick at idle or during driving?? i made a thread about a rattle at idle but when clutch pressed in then it goes away. i wonder if i have the same. i had the noise prior to any software or mods though

Originally Posted by elmariachi

I am getting a weird ticking sound from 1.5k to 2k rpm. Above 3k rpm, whole engine feels rough. Anyway I find voiding my cars warranty in 3 days is a joke. Not only that, they have failed to make any mention of th problem I outlined to them. My dealer also sent me another letter stating the car is NORMAL. It is definitely NOT NORMAL! In light of either the dealer or BMW ASIA addressing the problem or even talking to me about it,
they simply void the warranty of the ENGINE AND THE DRIVETRAIN even when I have no problems with the drivetrain itself. Not withstanding the fact that the dealer screwed up my DCT gearbox oil change once and extended 6 months warranty to it. Now there is nothing on that too.

I think the guys sitting at BMW ASIA are incompetant.
They lied to me on the following as seen from the letter.

1. My car is normal and they just voided the warranty for both. Decision only took 3 days. WEIRD. Nothing was discussed with me at all. If they strongly believed the car is normal, what's up with the voiding of warranty? Just does not make sense. If car is believed to be normal and they think nothing is to be claimed, why void? I mean I just find all this a circus.

2. No option to reinstate warranty.

It would be at least something if I could get the drivetrain warranty back. It is not fair eapecially when the dealer screwed this one up post run-in. Makes me even believe that the dealer and BMW Asia are really a disgrace to BMW Group for having treatment to customers like this. While ther is a risk to everything we do, I think it should be limited to wherever the problem resides. I have ways to get the car back to it's peak but what if tomorrow the dct fails due to a long term effect of the wrong oil change?

Moreover, they have yet to prove that the things I did to the car affected the engine. Maybe it did maybe it didn't. But where in the hell does voiding the drivetrain comes from when they have not proven on the engine side. Pretty disgusting agency we have here in Asia together with the people sitting there. Looks like they can do whatever they want and get away with it!! Perhaps an overdue promotion and a fat bonus that they missed. Maybe that'd what this is all about. LOL.

[foosh]

Originally Posted by H Bomb

is this tick at idle or during driving?? i made a thread about a rattle at idle but when clutch pressed in then it goes away. i wonder if i have the same. i had the noise prior to any software or mods though

The noise you describe has nothing to do with your engine. It is the normal clutch throw-out bearing noise, and it is present on all E9X M3 6MTs. It's also common on many manual transmissions designed for use on high-performance engines.

[FStop7]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

While we all know that the valve springs in this S65 is not too good

I don't accept that "we all know" any such thing, and I ask you to provide some numbers to back that claim up.

[H Bomb]

thank you for the info, that is good to hear. i didn't hear it on my past M cars so i got a little worried. thanks

Originally Posted by foosh

The noise you describe has nothing to do with your engine. It is the normal clutch throw-out bearing noise, and it is present on all E9X M3 6MTs. It's also common on many manual transmissions designed for use on high-performance engines.

[Eliminator]

6 pages of good reading and my sincere condolence to the OP, but could somebody please post the cost of an engine rebuild with new valves and boring two cylinders with new pistons and rings? We understand a new S65 installed is $30K, but what about the rebuild cost?

[niterider]

Originally Posted by PencilGeek

I think he's talking about the increasing number of people who are experiencing broken valve springs, and bent valves due to overrevving (valve float). There's already a small handful of these cases, but the sample size is probably too small to draw a direct correlation, but big enough that it's starting to make people wonder about the margin on the valve springs.

Well a lot of my buddies are techs here in California at the dealer Pacific BMW and I spoke to them about this subject. They apparently have not had any E9X M3 with any type of valve or engine problems. The only common concern they have seen with the s65 is the idle air valve/actuator issue.

Oh and just FYI for everyone. If u take ur car to the dealer for a concern like this and BMW NA ends up reading ur DME and find some kind of overvving fault stored in the DME when diagnosing it. They will almost always call it a driver error, meaning it would not be a warranty issue. Unless they see some kind of other mechanical or electric failure that could have caused it. This is exactly what was done with these issues on the S54.

[satinghostrider]

Originally Posted by niterider

Well a lot of my buddies are techs here in California at the dealer Pacific BMW and I spoke to them about this subject. They apparently have not had any E9X M3 with any type of valve or engine problems. The only common concern they have seen with the s65 is the idle air valve/actuator issue.

Oh and just FYI for everyone. If u take ur car to the dealer for a concern like this and BMW NA ends up reading ur DME and find some kind of overvving fault stored in the DME when diagnosing it. They will almost always call it a driver error, meaning it would not be a warranty issue. Unless they see some kind of other mechanical or electric failure that could have caused it. This is exactly what was done with these issues on the S54.

You see at least BMW NA has protocols they follow accordingly. There is a sytem where everything is accountable and transparent. I have been screwed big time by BMW ASIA on they way they handled my case. Of course, there is nothing much I can do. But I think they are a disgrace to the BMW Brand. I just need to get my drivetrain warranty unvoided at least out of this whole thing. I dont expect my engine replaced or repaired despite all this because I believe the rebuilding will make me know what went wrong exactly where.

[aussiem3]

elmariachi:
Why won't you write to BMW Germany about it and dot point your dealing with your dealership in Singapore as well as BMW Asia. BMW do value customer loyalty and I am sure you will get an answer from them. Also cc in the head of BMW Asia. I am sure he doesn't know what's going on in his own backyard.
Don't rush into any decisions and independantly stripped the engine. Try this first and see what happens.
Good luck!

[MN M3]

It is discussions like these that make me absolutely crazy.

Let me see if I have this correct - the OP DELIBERATELY modified the programming on his car's ECU, right? Regardless of what reprogramming was actually done, the fact is that the car has now been tuned. And, as the fates often make occur, the engine went south following this retune. Now, the OP expects BMW to pay for his repairs, and he's upset that they've cancelled his powertrain warranty?

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?

The FIRST rule of modding your car is this:

MOD = VOID WARRANTY.

It's that simple. The warranty manual clearly states this fact. Every other manufacturer states the same thing.

Another thing - people in here are woefully misinformed if they think there is some magical way to tune your car then, upon needing warranty work, simply reinstall the original tune without leaving a trace. IT CANNOT BE DONE. I don't care which company sells you this snake oil, it is B.S.

Having owned (and tuned) a large number of high-performance cars (Corvette, Audi, MB, etc.), I can state with 100% absolute certainty that there is no such thing as an undetectable tune or an undetectable restoration to the factory tune. ANY changes leave traces that ANY tech, using proper scan tools, can find. Once found, they are obligated to turn you in to the manufacturer. Period. And, once that fact is recorded on your service record, the powertrain warranty is gone.

What is unclear about this? If you mod, you pay. It's a choice you make, so accept it.

[quality_sound]

Originally Posted by MN M3

The FIRST rule of modding your car is this:

MOD = VOID WARRANTY.

It's that simple. The warranty manual clearly states this fact. Every other manufacturer states the same thing.

You REALLY need to read the Magnussen-Moss Act.