Comparison test of BBK for the E9x M3 - Surprising results!!!

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by JAJ

The shortest stopping distance is achieved with a trained driver (usually a pro) doing threshold braking. That's how it's done in F1, for instance. For everyone else there's ABS.

We don't know if the car in the test is using a special ABS calibration. Most street calibrations won't get the best out of RComps or slicks, for instance. If you're running RComps and you have the right ABS calibration, you can pretty much do threshold braking - the ABS will hold off until things are well past that point. Street calibrations aren't so forgiving, and they'll kick in earlier.

F1 doesn't have ABS brakes anymore because it was banned in the '90ies. Every pro race series that hasn't banned ABS, use ABS. Same with traction control.

No human is able to replicate the electronic systems (like ABS and TC) ability to exploit available traction.

Agree on ABS calibration. But since the car used was a race car, I suspect the ABS is set up for sticky tires and good brakes

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by Boss330

F1 doesn't have ABS brakes anymore because it was banned in the '90ies. Every pro race series that hasn't banned ABS, use ABS. Same with traction control.

No human is able to replicate the electronic systems (like ABS and TC) ability to exploit available traction.

Agree on ABS calibration. But since the car used was a race car, I suspect the ABS is set up for sticky tires and good brakes

It looks like a car with a bunch of stuff on it to make it look like a racecar. I'd be pretty confident saying that all of the electronics are stock.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

It looks like a car with a bunch of stuff on it to make it look like a racecar. I'd be pretty confident saying that all of the electronics are stock.

It looks like one of the VLN or RCN long distance series race cars, just like the M235i race car that BMW made this year (for the VLN series). AFAIK they all have modified software for racing on slicks.

[JAJ]

Originally Posted by Boss330

F1 doesn't have ABS brakes anymore because it was banned in the '90ies. Every pro race series that hasn't banned ABS, use ABS. Same with traction control.

No human is able to replicate the electronic systems (like ABS and TC) ability to exploit available traction.

Agree on ABS calibration. But since the car used was a race car, I suspect the ABS is set up for sticky tires and good brakes

Maximum traction from tires happens with a few percent slip - that's slip angle in cornering and incipient lockup under braking. My point is that if an ABS is calibrated to allow tire slip, it's simply emulating a pro driver doing threshold braking. As soon as incipient lockup gets past the threshold and becomes real lockup, the ABS controller starts modulating the brakes. That is, the brakes alternate between being locked up with tires sliding or released to get the tires rolling again. I suppose the stopping distance could get shorter that way, but I'll take some convincing. As far as I know, ABS computers don't have the finesse to fine-tune line pressures to maintain threshold braking - they either stand back and watch if everything is going well, or they cycle the brakes on and off.

While this is a BMW forum, and I drove them for years and still do, one thing I'll say for Ford is that they are shockingly reasonable on stuff like this. I can buy a plug-and-play replacement ABS controller for my car from Ford for about $400 with the racing slick calibration used in the factory race cars. BMW could do this, but they don't. If you're not a pro race team, you just can't get this stuff.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by JAJ

Maximum traction from tires happens with a few percent slip - that's slip angle in cornering and incipient lockup under braking. My point is that if an ABS is calibrated to allow tire slip, it's simply emulating a pro driver doing threshold braking. As soon as incipient lockup gets past the threshold and becomes real lockup, the ABS controller starts modulating the brakes. That is, the brakes alternate between being locked up with tires sliding or released to get the tires rolling again. I suppose the stopping distance could get shorter that way, but I'll take some convincing. As far as I know, ABS computers don't have the finesse to fine-tune line pressures to maintain threshold braking - they either stand back and watch if everything is going well, or they cycle the brakes on and off.

While this is a BMW forum, and I drove them for years and still do, one thing I'll say for Ford is that they are shockingly reasonable on stuff like this. I can buy a plug-and-play replacement ABS controller for my car from Ford for about $400 with the racing slick calibration used in the factory race cars. BMW could do this, but they don't. If you're not a pro race team, you just can't get this stuff.

Point is that even F1 drivers got shorter stopping distances with ABS brakes than without... And better acceleration with TC than without...

Have you tested brakes with for instance a MAHA decelerometer?

I have done this frequently and on many different cars. On the graph of measured deceleration you will see that deceleration rises and peaks, before settling at a lower level until standstill. On a old car with ABS, the deceleration settles at a noticeable lower level than at peak initial deceleration (optimal or treshold deceleration). On a modern car, the drop under ABS braking is very small compared to the initial highest deceleration.

Today the ABS operates at such a high frequency of on/off that it's impossible for any human to replicate by treshold braking. IMO ABS brakes today IS effectively replicating treshold braking.

BTW, Ayrton Senna won all of his championships in F1 cars with ABS brakes...

-1988 McLaren MP 4/4 in which he took his first championship
-1989 and 1990 McLaren MP 4/5 (1989 Prost WC and 1990 Senna WC)
-1991 McLaren MP 4/6

ABS was banned after the 1993 season.

I'm sure that if Senna thought he could brake better without ABS he would have had it taken off his car. And, even F1 drivers struggle with locking brakes and getting flat spots on their tires. I'm pretty sure they all would have said yes to ABS from a pure performance perspective as that woul eliminate a few destroyed tires, massive vibrations and early pit stops due to flat spotted tires...

[JAJ]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Point is that even F1 drivers got shorter stopping distances with ABS brakes than without... And better acceleration with TC than without...

Have you tested brakes with for instance a MAHA decelerometer?

I have done this frequently and on many different cars. On the graph of measured deceleration you will see that deceleration rises and peaks, before settling at a lower level until standstill. On a old car with ABS, the deceleration settles at a noticeable lower level than at peak initial deceleration (optimal or treshold deceleration). On a modern car, the drop under ABS braking is very small compared to the initial highest deceleration.

Today the ABS operates at such a high frequency of on/off that it's impossible for any human to replicate by treshold braking. IMO ABS brakes today IS effectively replicating treshold braking.

BTW, Ayrton Senna won all of his championships in F1 cars with ABS brakes...

-1988 McLaren MP 4/4 in which he took his first championship
-1989 and 1990 McLaren MP 4/5 (1989 Prost WC and 1990 Senna WC)
-1991 McLaren MP 4/6

ABS was banned after the 1993 season.

I'm sure that if Senna thought he could brake better without ABS he would have had it taken off his car. And, even F1 drivers struggle with locking brakes and getting flat spots on their tires. I'm pretty sure they all would have said yes to ABS from a pure performance perspective as that woul eliminate a few destroyed tires, massive vibrations and early pit stops due to flat spotted tires...

Okay - I said I'd take some convincing and now I'm convinced - thank you!

[bigjae1976]

I guess this goes back to the argument of DSC in M mode which showed to intervene even though it wasn't noticeable. The question is...how good was the ABS system? Even if ABS could shorten the stopping distance...then is it a good comparison to test a system designed for 4 axles on only 2 axles?

I have no answer for that. Interesting discussion.

[Richbot]

I have no data to back it up but my opinion is the M3's system is very very effective (both before and after my Stoptechs) in straight-line braking, but starts to pulse the inside front a little sooner under trail braking now that I have the stoptechs. A full-ABS stop paints two faint black stripes (but no smoke or lockup) on concrete in my car, that tells me it's allowing a good amount of slip without lockup. Optimal? Probably not, few street systems are all the way there to max threshold braking all the time in all situations for all tires because they have to handle a huge range of conditions and tire selections safely, but the M3's ABS is one of the best systems I've played with. It handles a wheel in the air, pogoing, racing tires, weird sizes, etc. very well for a factory system. I think pad compound difference is more to blame for the difference Iv'e noticed with the Stoptechs

[Edward]

BBK's are definitely engineered to provide fade-resistant braking power lap after lap. The best possible setup for a fast track probably can't be all things to all drivers. If you don't track, a track setup is probably worse for your safety. I personally don't track so I am happy with the stock units (minus their weak looking calipers) since they can stock my car in those unexpectedly hard stops. The last thing I want is a nice looking BBK that I can't utilize that also takes time to warm up and is noisy and chattery.

This is not to say that on the times I am on mulholland dr fun a fun drive, two things start to heat up really fast. My brakes and my oil. My stock setup will get mushy pretty quickly and the pedal will travel further and the pads will feel grittier and choppy as everything gets hotter.

Our brakes are a compromise just like every single other aspect of our car is a compromise. Who knows about the Brembo kit in the test...all I know is that they seem to have tried to cancel out variables and control the test very tightly.

I just see a lot of people here getting really upset over one test. I see vendors getting hyper defensive over a product they sell frequently and a lot of people who own brembos getting upset. Relax...it's one publication. If EVO or some other guys did this same exact test you can almost guarantee they would not provide a consistent review. It's just a desperate when people get so butt hurt and defensive over some test results.

[radiantm3]

I have the Brembo 380 kit and could care less what people on the forums think. My kit has performed flawlessly in the 30 or so track days I've run them in. No issues with fade, pedal feel is always consistent, and I've had complete confidence in them from day 1.

[oldmanstyle]

Originally Posted by Edward

BBK's are definitely engineered to provide fade-resistant braking power lap after lap. The best possible setup for a fast track probably can't be all things to all drivers. If you don't track, a track setup is probably worse for your safety. I personally don't track so I am happy with the stock units (minus their weak looking calipers) since they can stock my car in those unexpectedly hard stops. The last thing I want is a nice looking BBK that I can't utilize that also takes time to warm up and is noisy and chattery.

This is not to say that on the times I am on mulholland dr fun a fun drive, two things start to heat up really fast. My brakes and my oil. My stock setup will get mushy pretty quickly and the pedal will travel further and the pads will feel grittier and choppy as everything gets hotter.

Our brakes are a compromise just like every single other aspect of our car is a compromise. Who knows about the Brembo kit in the test...all I know is that they seem to have tried to cancel out variables and control the test very tightly.

I just see a lot of people here getting really upset over one test. I see vendors getting hyper defensive over a product they sell frequently and a lot of people who own brembos getting upset. Relax...it's one publication. If EVO or some other guys did this same exact test you can almost guarantee they would not provide a consistent review. It's just a desperate when people get so butt hurt and defensive over some test results.

You sound more emo and upset than the people you're referring to. Those making the ridiculous point, "well that's how they come from the manufacturer, so it's a fair test", just don't get it. It's that simple.

[HapaM3]

I worked for Stoptech for 13.5 years. I'm not surprised of the results of this test. That team tries its hardest to deliver and rarely fails. Never once has this company gone and tried to create a false forum user name to bad mouth a company just because it has created a healthy competition in the market like some other companies- ehhem! The Director of Engineering is by far one of the most dedicated automotive weenie-heads I have ever met. As for the product, it is constantly being pushed to the limits on racetracks all over the world. I know this post comes from a prideful place within, but hey, I'm taking the opportunity to bask a little. Thanks.

Enjoy those ST BBKs. It puts a little smile on my face for doing my job well.

[e46e92love]

This pretty much does not surprise me at all. Brembo is never the first name track junkies turn to. Big name, but the top 3 in the test would have always been the only three I would have looked at WITHOUT this test.

Cheers,
e46e92

[Amirsm3]

Originally Posted by e46e92love

This pretty much does not surprise me at all. Brembo is never the first name track junkies turn to. Big name, but the top 3 in the test would have always been the only three I would have looked at WITHOUT this test.

Cheers,
e46e92

There's gotta be a reason they're the 99% choice for OE brakes on supercars, sport saloons and the like.

I'm not gonna sit here and justify my brembo kit (I know my set up isn't the end all solution), but just throwing that out there.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by Amirsm3

There's gotta be a reason they're the 99% choice for OE brakes on supercars, sport saloons and the like.

I'm not gonna sit here and justify my brembo kit (I know my set up isn't the end all solution), but just throwing that out there.

cater to the masses and look pretty?

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by Amirsm3

There's gotta be a reason they're the 99% choice for OE brakes on supercars, sport saloons and the like.

I'm not gonna sit here and justify my brembo kit (I know my set up isn't the end all solution), but just throwing that out there.

Name recognition worldwide. Brembo isn't shy about their links to F1...so people think because F1. Many people wax lyrical about BBS wheels for the same reason.

Kind of like Recaro as well. A product that works well with a premium price for the name.

But I'm sure car manufacturers use Brembos because of the name recognition to sell products. Do you think Stoptech brakes would be a big seller for the car buying majority (which is not us)?

[dj_dub]

I'm still gonna get the Brembo 380 kit. lol

[Amirsm3]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Name recognition worldwide. Brembo isn't shy about their links to F1...so people think because F1. Many people wax lyrical about BBS wheels for the same reason.

Kind of like Recaro as well. A product that works well with a premium price for the name.

But I'm sure car manufacturers use Brembos because of the name recognition to sell products. Do you think Stoptech brakes would be a big seller for the car buying majority (which is not us)?

I'm sure it's more than just to sell products. Is there name recognition involved? Sure, but that's not all of it.

[Boss330]

UPDATE: In the last issue of Auto Bild Sportscars there was a letter in the "Readers letters" section that took up the BBK test.

The editor replied that they assumed that "Brembo had delivered the wrong kit which was the reason behind the disastrous results" and the they would do a new test with the proper Brembo BBK that would be published later.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by Boss330

UPDATE: In the last issue of Auto Bild Sportscars there was a letter in the "Readers letters" section that took up the BBK test.

The editor replied that they assumed that "Brembo had delivered the wrong kit which was the reason behind the disastrous results" and the they would do a new test with the proper Brembo BBK that would be published later.

So what you're saying is Brembo owners do not face imminent death using their bbk?

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

So what you're saying is Brembo owners do not face imminent death using their bbk?

Depends if you let perple derple bleed them.

[radiantm3]

Originally Posted by Boss330

UPDATE: In the last issue of Auto Bild Sportscars there was a letter in the "Readers letters" section that took up the BBK test.

The editor replied that they assumed that "Brembo had delivered the wrong kit which was the reason behind the disastrous results" and the they would do a new test with the proper Brembo BBK that would be published later.

No that editor is wrong and everyone (who don't even own the kit) bashing Brembos in this thread is right. Come on now, lets be realistic here. There can't be 6 pages of people being wrong.