M3 E90 vs RS5 spin

[kbh]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

I ran one about a year and a half ago.

First and second gear, the Audi was slightly ahead. I caught up quickly in third and the M3 pulled away in 4th. Before we ran, we were at a light and the German driver said, "Nice car, 400 horsepower right?" to which I replied "Something like that". I think if my car didn't have full exhaust and tune that it would have been a much more even race.

The Audi's are very nice cars. If I wasn't so hardcore BMW I would definitely own one.

exactly the same results. modded my m3 with tune, test pipes and exhausts vs rs5. rolling start first gear to 2nd audi pulled on me but gained in the 3rd and 4th. should be probably the same if I didn't mod my car.

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by ss134

New M3 will definitely not feel like a tuned N54!

WHAT? It IS A TUNED N54/N55. So, not only will it FEEL like it is, but it REALLY, ACTUALLY IS a tuned 335i motor.

I fully expect it to be one of the best if not the best turbo motor ever in regards to lag. Performance wise i have no doubt it will destroy the RS5 in every way.

Still a commodity motor. Boring if not awful sound. Over 1000 rpm lower redline and 1500rpm lower HP peak than prior M3. Nothing you couldn't get with simple software to your 335i.

Besides, ultimate performance isn't even the point. I'd take a Carrera S over a GT-R ANY DAY OF THE WEEK, even though the GT-R would destroy the P-car. Why? I love the responsiveness, sound and fine craftsmanship of the Porsche, vs. the crude, turbo truck motor approach of the new M cars and GT-R.

[ss134]

[QUOTE=Kurt_OH;15965965]WHAT? It IS A TUNED N54/N55. So, not only will it FEEL like it is, but it REALLY, ACTUALLY IS a tuned 335i motor.


That's a bit too simplistic. It's not just a tuned N54. The basic block may be the same but most other internals are different.

It's a hell of a lot more than just a tuned N54.

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by ss134

That's a bit too simplistic. It's not just a tuned N54. The basic block may be the same but most other internals are different.

It's a hell of a lot more than just a tuned N54.

No, it's NOT a "hell of a lot more". It's an inline 6cyl 3L twin turbo. Boosted another half atmosphere of pressure. Beefed up to survive another 100hp. So a long-lived, tuned N55.

But really it doesn't matter. I just hope I don't capitulate and get one in a few years when I start getting nervous about the long term viability of an 8300rpm V8.

I love my wife's 335i, but when I hop out of it and into my M3, it's a whole new world because of that unique engine, and THAT's what bugs me most. The singular most spectacular, special and unduplicatable part of the M cars has been the engine for at least the last three generations of M3. Now, it's just another soulless turbo motor with low revs, muted sounds (boosted with speakers - LOL!) and a gob of lag bandaided for short bursts with a turbo freespool feature.

[coloradoe92m3]

Think that is the word many people are looking for. "Special" f80 is faster and on paper better bit when you sat and drove in the e92 you had huge hood bulge staring at you, a really loud and race car like intake growl that turns to howl and ability to take it up to 8600 Rpms where when cat less sounds like a DTM race car. You had to drive it like a race car and stay high in revs to extract power and when you did you were rewarded with literally instant response coupled with wail of 8 individual throttle bodies being funneled through a huge air intake with a direct opening out the hood to be heard loud and clear.

The functionality of the air intake and design was special and what other than race cars have individual throttle bodies? Ferraris don't even implement them. You had a 12:1 CR with one of the only cars ever to use ionic current sensing to enable it to hit crazy high timing targets. It all was just so finely designed to: extract every last HP out of the engine. No other BMW had the s65 and was low volume and relatively rare.

Now you take an f80 bit realize although its new engine design to a degree, its not at all an engine operating on the edge of its performance and none of the really unique stuff like ITBs , ionic current, 8600 rpm etc wasneeded as they can get all the performance ffrom a turbo. Sadly turbo kills sound and response of engine. Coupled with the lack of race car sound and power delivery character is what I would sum up as why its not nearly as special.

Sometimes in the dead of summer accelerating to redline feels much slower than a cool temp evening, its never much matter as its the never ending tach needle climbing and sound howling that makes me feel like I'm in a car unlike almost anything out there. F80 is really like every car out there with a turbo in terms of power delivery. The entire magic to me of M was the high revving power delivery with the need to drive it properly to extract power. For any f1, Indy or NASCAR fans, it gave you a feeling that you got to experience a taste of a race bred engines power delivery.

So yes. Faster yes. But not special in my eyes

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by coloradoe92m3

Think that is the word many people are looking for. "Special" f80 is faster and on paper better bit when you sat and drove in the e92 you had huge hood bulge staring at you, a really loud and race car like intake growl that turns to howl and ability to take it up to 8600 Rpms where when cat less sounds like a DTM race car. You had to drive it like a race car and stay high in revs to extract power and when you did you were rewarded with literally instant response coupled with wail of 8 individual throttle bodies being funneled through a huge air intake with a direct opening out the hood to be heard loud and clear.

The functionality of the air intake and design was special and what other than race cars have individual throttle bodies? Ferraris don't even implement them. You had a 12:1 CR with one of the only cars ever to use ionic current sensing to enable it to hit crazy high timing targets. It all was just so finely designed to: extract every last HP out of the engine. No other BMW had the s65 and was low volume and relatively rare.

Now you take an f80 bit realize although its new engine design to a degree, its not at all an engine operating on the edge of its performance and none of the really unique stuff like ITBs , ionic current, 8600 rpm etc wasneeded as they can get all the performance ffrom a turbo. Sadly turbo kills sound and response of engine. Coupled with the lack of race car sound and power delivery character is what I would sum up as why its not nearly as special.

Sometimes in the dead of summer accelerating to redline feels much slower than a cool temp evening, its never much matter as its the never ending tach needle climbing and sound howling that makes me feel like I'm in a car unlike almost anything out there. F80 is really like every car out there with a turbo in terms of power delivery. The entire magic to me of M was the high revving power delivery with the need to drive it properly to extract power. For any f1, Indy or NASCAR fans, it gave you a feeling that you got to experience a taste of a race bred engines power delivery.

So yes. Faster yes. But not special in my eyes

[/thread]

[ss134]

Originally Posted by coloradoe92m3

Think that is the word many people are looking for. "Special" f80 is faster and on paper better bit when you sat and drove in the e92 you had huge hood bulge staring at you, a really loud and race car like intake growl that turns to howl and ability to take it up to 8600 Rpms where when cat less sounds like a DTM race car. You had to drive it like a race car and stay high in revs to extract power and when you did you were rewarded with literally instant response coupled with wail of 8 individual throttle bodies being funneled through a huge air intake with a direct opening out the hood to be heard loud and clear.

The functionality of the air intake and design was special and what other than race cars have individual throttle bodies? Ferraris don't even implement them. You had a 12:1 CR with one of the only cars ever to use ionic current sensing to enable it to hit crazy high timing targets. It all was just so finely designed to: extract every last HP out of the engine. No other BMW had the s65 and was low volume and relatively rare.

Now you take an f80 bit realize although its new engine design to a degree, its not at all an engine operating on the edge of its performance and none of the really unique stuff like ITBs , ionic current, 8600 rpm etc wasneeded as they can get all the performance ffrom a turbo. Sadly turbo kills sound and response of engine. Coupled with the lack of race car sound and power delivery character is what I would sum up as why its not nearly as special.

Sometimes in the dead of summer accelerating to redline feels much slower than a cool temp evening, its never much matter as its the never ending tach needle climbing and sound howling that makes me feel like I'm in a car unlike almost anything out there. F80 is really like every car out there with a turbo in terms of power delivery. The entire magic to me of M was the high revving power delivery with the need to drive it properly to extract power. For any f1, Indy or NASCAR fans, it gave you a feeling that you got to experience a taste of a race bred engines power delivery.

So yes. Faster yes. But not special in my eyes

Why don't you drive the car first and then make that statement - after I drive it I may agree with you, until I experience it myself I will not write it off.

[CSanto]

The car is gorgeous, but now I'm supercharged, and it would be such a performance downgrade =(

[radiantm3]

Originally Posted by CSanto

The car is gorgeous, but now I'm supercharged, and it would be such a performance downgrade =(

I'm really fond of the RS line of Audi's, but I could never own one as my personal "sporty" car because of AWD. I just find RWD cars so much more satisfying when driven at/near the limits.

[Hawk Lax]

Chased an RS5 around at Lime Rock last week. Link

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by coloradoe92m3

Think that is the word many people are looking for. "Special" f80 is faster and on paper better bit when you sat and drove in the e92 you had huge hood bulge staring at you, a really loud and race car like intake growl that turns to howl and ability to take it up to 8600 Rpms where when cat less sounds like a DTM race car. You had to drive it like a race car and stay high in revs to extract power and when you did you were rewarded with literally instant response coupled with wail of 8 individual throttle bodies being funneled through a huge air intake with a direct opening out the hood to be heard loud and clear.

The functionality of the air intake and design was special and what other than race cars have individual throttle bodies? Ferraris don't even implement them. You had a 12:1 CR with one of the only cars ever to use ionic current sensing to enable it to hit crazy high timing targets. It all was just so finely designed to: extract every last HP out of the engine. No other BMW had the s65 and was low volume and relatively rare.

Now you take an f80 bit realize although its new engine design to a degree, its not at all an engine operating on the edge of its performance and none of the really unique stuff like ITBs , ionic current, 8600 rpm etc wasneeded as they can get all the performance ffrom a turbo. Sadly turbo kills sound and response of engine. Coupled with the lack of race car sound and power delivery character is what I would sum up as why its not nearly as special.

Sometimes in the dead of summer accelerating to redline feels much slower than a cool temp evening, its never much matter as its the never ending tach needle climbing and sound howling that makes me feel like I'm in a car unlike almost anything out there. F80 is really like every car out there with a turbo in terms of power delivery. The entire magic to me of M was the high revving power delivery with the need to drive it properly to extract power. For any f1, Indy or NASCAR fans, it gave you a feeling that you got to experience a taste of a race bred engines power delivery.

So yes. Faster yes. But not special in my eyes

I could have written your post myself

When I've driven the E46 M/E92 M/E60 M the first thought that went through my head is 'it is impossible they put a mini formula 1 engine into the chassis of a regular car'.
It is incredible to have a M car for 65k with a 8400 redline and which sounds glorious.

Well, it turns out my original disbelief has come to pass. The new M5 has yet another boring turbo engine, just like the new M3. True, they are M turbo engines so they are marginally better than the rest, but there is no longer the mini Ferrari feeling the old engines gave.

At the same time, I have read countless threads of people who cannot drive or downshift gears talking about 'gutless' M engines and how they want all their torque at 1000 rpm. Well, now M caters to those people instead of the old attitude of 'high revs and low total torque is the best for performance cars'.

Yes, M cars of days bygone did not have much torque and required actual 'driving' to extract the most performance from them. And yes, having an engine as completely epic as an S54/S65/S85 in a road car implied lousy MPG. This is why it was the top of the range.

I am very happy I got my '13 ZCP E92 before they were out of production and will add a S85 to the collection one day.

I wish the S55 had artificially limited torque to get max power only over 7k, similar to the Ferrari California T. That would have addressed at least one of the suckiness points of a turbo engine

[brava09]

Let me tell you that both E92 M3 and RS5 have similar character. Both rev to 8,500 rpm, the sound of the engine is almost exotic, and yes, the RS5 oversteers when pushed.

As for which one is faster, the RS5 is a bit faster overall. Take off and slow corners, no contest, RS5 is much faster thanks to awd. Straight line they are equal.

There was one guy with M3 trying to race me, on straight line he couldn't pass me nor I couldn't shake him off. But at the first slow corner, a 90 degree one, I disappeared into the distance.

Both are wonderful machines, I enjoyed the M3 as much as I enjoy now the RS5.