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      07-01-2015, 02:18 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Z K View Post
Wow... marriage definitely does predate the bible and religion as a whole. It predates recorded history! It happened as a way to structure things and keep people together to support offspring. It has nothing to do with religion at all!
did you read what i wrote?

the recorded history in the bible gives us a record of how the universe came into being and how man came into existence and also tells us it was God who instituted marriage between the first man and woman.
if you accept this premise then the argument becomes invalid.
If you reject the premise then you might have a case, and as I said, since a significant part of the population base their acceptance of marriage on these teachings, given to them by their religion then i don't see how anyone can say it has nothing to do with religion


Also, we know very little about anything outside of recorded history other than whatever interpretation we can glean from archaeology, and studying drawings in caves on pottery or whatever, and even those things ARE recorded history.
what evidence do you have that marriage existed before recorded history?
did you exist before history began to be recorded to know how people lived and what ideas shaped the things that because a part of their society?
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      07-01-2015, 02:29 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avantegardestyle View Post
did you read what i wrote?

the recorded history in the bible gives us a record of how the universe came into being and how man came into existence and also tells us it was God who instituted marriage between the first man and woman.
if you accept this premise then the argument becomes invalid.
If you reject the premise then you might have a case, and as I said, since a significant part of the population base their acceptance of marriage on these teachings, given to them by their religion then i don't see how anyone can say it has nothing to do with religion

Also, we know very little about anything outside of recorded history other than whatever interpretation we can glean from archaeology, and studying drawings in caves on pottery or whatever, and even those things ARE recorded history.
what evidence do you have that marriage existed before recorded history?
did you exist before history began to be recorded to know how people lived and what ideas shaped the things that because a part of their society?
Ok, I can understand you believe in the LITERAL interpretation of the bible. The bible is NOT recorded history.

The concept of marriage predates Christianity and the other two forms of Abrahamic religions, Judaism and Islam which share a common origin and common values. Marriage is very ancient dating back beyond recorded history and was practiced by all people of many cultures, ethnicities and belief systems on all continents.

The prevalace of the concept of marriage came to the forefront of culture when humankind evolved from hunter gatherer to agriculture and pastoralism which occured during the neolithic/agricultural revolution about 10,000 years ago.

Originally "marriage" was a private, binding contract between clans (families) to form an alliance, thereby increasing the clan's chances for survival in war against rival clans. A "dowry" was given by each clan to "seal the deal". Marriage was contractual, considered a passing of "property" between clans as a symbol of intention to honor the agreement being made. Property took many forms: cattle, land, children, whatever was considered to be of great value at the time.

The origins of marriage is NOT religious, nor does it have anything to do with the God of the Abrahamic religions. It was around way before organized religion.
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      07-01-2015, 02:29 PM   #47
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Food for thought:

Between 1913 and 1948, 30 out of 48 states enforced anti-miscegenation laws. Interracial marriage was not fully legal until a similar Supreme Court decision in 1967.
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      07-01-2015, 02:58 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by bmwmsport View Post
Except, in times past, it was the church's job to marry people. Marriage isn't just a social status.

Leviticus 18:22 "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

We aren't called to celebrate sins. Celebrating same-sex marriage is celebrating sin.

As for America today, I believe it should be left up to the states to decide whether or not they want to allow it. If your state doesn't allow it, move. Of course, little late for that now.
Unless its your children in a committed homosexual relationship and have less rights then a heterosexual married couple and need to make important decisions, joint decisions on health issues, financial or whatever. And you say "sorry but the bible says........" Keep your bible and lose your kids.
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      07-01-2015, 04:46 PM   #49
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Unless its your children in a committed homosexual relationship and have less rights then a heterosexual married couple and need to make important decisions, joint decisions on health issues, financial or whatever. And you say "sorry but the bible says........" Keep your bible and lose your kids.
I never said "sorry."

The Bible says what it says, we are to obey that.

I just hate that all the meaning of marriage has been lost. Now, it's no more than a social standard used to file taxes differently.
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      07-01-2015, 05:00 PM   #50
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I don't get it, what's changed? . I've had a same sex marriage for the last 20 years.
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      07-02-2015, 01:35 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwmsport View Post
I never said "sorry."

The Bible says what it says, we are to obey that.

I just hate that all the meaning of marriage has been lost. Now, it's no more than a social standard used to file taxes differently.
The meaning hasn't been changed. This has no effect on you or your religion. If anything divorce has and does have a far greater impact

Last edited by DF; 07-02-2015 at 10:16 AM.
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      07-02-2015, 09:29 AM   #52
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Ok, I can understand you believe in the LITERAL interpretation of the bible. The bible is NOT recorded history.
The Bible is as good a history book as you can get. It describes people, places, and events in detail.

"It could be said that the Bible is a book of history--and it is. The Bible describes places, people, and events in various degrees of detail. It is essentially an historical account of the people of God throughout thousands of years. If you open to almost any page in the Bible, you will find a name of a place and/or a person. Much of this can be verified from archaeology. Though archaeology cannot prove that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, it has the ability to prove whether or not some events and locations described therein are true or false. So far, however, there isn't a single archaeological discovery that disproves the Bible in any way.

Nevertheless, many people used to think that the Bible had numerous historical errors in it such as Luke's account of Lysanias being the tetrarch of Abiline in about A.D. 27 (Luke 3:1). For years scholars used this "factual error" to prove Luke was wrong because it was common knowledge that Lysanias was not a tetrarch but the ruler of Chalcis about 50 years earlier than what Luke described. But an archaeological inscription was found that said that Lysanias was the tetrarch in Abila near Damascus at the time that Luke said. It turns out that there had been two people name Lysanias, and Luke had accurately recorded the facts.

Also, the walls of Jericho have been found--destroyed just as the Bible says. Many critics doubted that Nazareth ever existed, yet archaeologists have found a first-century synagogue inscription at Caesarea that has verified its existence. Finds have verified the existence of Herod the Great and his son Herod Antipas. The remains of the Apostle Peter's house have been found at Capernaum. Bones with nail scars through the wrists and feet have been uncovered as well demonstrating the actuality of crucifixion. The High Priest Caiaphas' bones have been discovered in an ossuary (a box used to store bones).

There is, of course, a host of archaeological digs that corroborate biblical records on places such as Bethsaida, Bethany, Caesarea Philippi, Capernaum, Cyprus, Galatia, Philippi, Thessalonica, Berea, Athens, Corinth, Ephesus, Rome, etc.

An inscribed stone was found that refers to Pontius Pilate, named as Prefect of Judaea.’ (The New Bible Dictionary, (Wheaton, Illinois: Tyndale House Publishers, Inc.; 1962).
Luke 3:1, "Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea . . . "
"A decree of Claudius found at Delphi (Greece) describes Gallio as proconsul of Achaia in ad 51, thus giving a correlation with the ministry of Paul in Corinth (Acts 18:12)." (The New Bible Dictionary).
Acts 18:12, "But while Gallio was proconsul of Achaia, the Jews with one accord rose up against Paul and brought him before the judgment seat."
Excavations have revealed a text naming a benefactor Erastus which may be a reference relating to the city-treasurer of Rom. 16:23. (The New Bible Dictionary).
Rom. 16:23, "Gaius, host to me and to the whole church, greets you. Erastus, the city treasurer greets you, and Quartus, the brother."
At Ephesus parts of the temple of Artemis have been uncovered as is mentioned in Acts 19:28-41. (The New Bible Dictionary).
Acts 19:28, "And when they heard this and were filled with rage, they began crying out, saying, "Great is Artemis of the Ephesians."
"It is known that Quirinius was made governor of Syria by Augustus in AD 6. Archaeologist Sir William Ramsay discovered several inscriptions that indicated that Quirinius was governor of Syria on two occasions, the first time several years prior to this date . . . archaeology has provided some unexpected and supportive answers. Additionally, while supplying the background behind these events, archaeology also assists us in establishing several facts: (1) A taxation-census was a fairly common procedure in the Roman Empire and it did occur in Judea, in particular. (2) Persons were required to return to their home city in order to fulfill the requirements of the process. (3) These procedures were apparently employed during the reign of Augustus (37 BC–AD 14), placing it well within the general time frame of Jesus’ birth."2
"The historical trustworthiness of Luke has been attested by a number of inscriptions. The ‘politarchs’ of Thessalonica (Acts 17:6, 8) were magistrates and are named in five inscriptions from the city in the 1st century AD. Similarly Publius is correctly designated proµtos (‘first man’) or Governor of Malta (Acts 28:7). Near Lystra inscriptions record the dedication to Zeus of a statue of Hermes by some Lycaonians, and near by was a stone altar for ‘the Hearer of Prayer’ (Zeus) and Hermes. This explains the local identification of Barnabas and Paul with Zeus (Jupiter) and Hermes (Mercury) respectively (Acts 14:11). Derbe, Paul’s next stopping-place, was identified by Ballance in 1956 with Kaerti Hüyük near Karaman (ASLuke 2:2) and to Lysanias as tetrarch of Abilene (Luke 3:1) have likewise received inscriptional support." (The New Bible Dictionary.) 7, 1957, pp. 147ff.). Luke’s earlier references to Quirinius as governor of Syria before the death of Herod I (Luke 2:2) and to Lysanias as tetrarch of Abilene (Luke 3:1) have likewise received inscriptional support." (The New Bible Dictionary).

There are many such archaeological verifications of Biblical events and places. Is the Bible trustworthy? Absolutely! Remember, no archaeological discovery has ever contradicted the Bible. Therefore, since it has been verified over and over again throughout the centuries, we can continue to trust it as an accurate historical document."- Matt Slick


That is just the Bible as a historical document, nothing more.
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      07-02-2015, 10:05 AM   #53
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@ bmwmsport,

What language was the bible written in originally?
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      07-02-2015, 10:14 AM   #54
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Quote:
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@ bmwmsport,

What language was the bible written in originally?

OT was written originally in Ancient Hebrew then translated into Greek (called the Septuagint) New testament was written in Koine Greek
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      07-02-2015, 10:17 AM   #55
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who is going to oppose them now?
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireSto...cense-32162748
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      07-02-2015, 10:25 AM   #56
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people will always test/push boundaries (in a bad way)...
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      07-02-2015, 10:30 AM   #57
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This is why you can't give anything to anyone, people will always test/push boundaries (in a bad way)...
Wow
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      07-02-2015, 02:37 PM   #58
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I just hate that all the meaning of marriage has been lost. Now, it's no more than a social standard used to file taxes differently.
The meaning of marriage has not changed at all at the religious institution level.

It's merely caught up with being fair at the governmental level. It has done zero to impact the "sanctity of marriage" or anything of that nature.
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      07-02-2015, 02:40 PM   #59
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The meaning of marriage has not changed at all at the religious institution level.

It's merely caught up with being fair at the governmental level. It has done zero to impact the "sanctity of marriage" or anything of that nature.
Government should never regulate marriage in the first place. They only do so they can regulate property upon divorce. That's the only reason they have any interest in it.
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      07-02-2015, 02:48 PM   #60
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Government should never regulate marriage in the first place. They only do so they can regulate property upon divorce. That's the only reason they have any interest in it.
In an ideal setting, they wouldn't have a place in it from any aspect.

We are not, have not, and likely will never be in such an ideal setting....so, in absence of that, marriage equality is the right move.
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      07-02-2015, 02:53 PM   #61
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In an ideal setting, they wouldn't have a place in it from any aspect.

We are not, have not, and likely will never be in such an ideal setting....so, in absence of that, marriage equality is the right move.
But where do you draw the line? With one human to another human? Human to animal? Multiple humans together?

They are going to have to draw the line. It should have stayed at one man, one woman.
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      07-02-2015, 02:58 PM   #62
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But where do you draw the line? With one human to another human? Human to animal? Multiple humans together?

They are going to have to draw the line. It should have stayed at one man, one woman.
Yes, because two men, or two women can now get married, we are going to ultimately have a man and his cat get married. This is a rock solid argument


If you think this is the case, then hetero marriage was the start of the slippery slope. Blame the straights!


I honestly do not understand the mentality with some people. Two, consenting adults does not equal a consenting adult and an animal, or a consenting adult and a child, or whatever other weird scenario people want to paint.
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      07-02-2015, 03:03 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by other_evolved View Post
Yes, because two men, or two women can now get married, we are going to ultimately have a man and his cat get married. This is a rock solid argument


If you think this is the case, then hetero marriage was the start of the slippery slope. Blame the straights!


I honestly do not understand the mentality with some people. Two, consenting adults does not equal a consenting adult and an animal, or a consenting adult and a child, or whatever other weird scenario people want to paint.
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireSto...cense-32162748

Did you miss the article?
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      07-02-2015, 03:08 PM   #64
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Polyg's have been trying to do trio marriages for decades. THe recent SCOTUS decision hasn't changed that, and still outlined marriage between two people.

In any event, denying marriage to gay couples because of a very small minority of polygs doesn't make much sense.
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      07-02-2015, 03:16 PM   #65
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Marrying an animal would be much more simple. Think of all the frustrations you could avoid. Hard part is finding an animal with a steady paying job.
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      07-02-2015, 03:18 PM   #66
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Marrying an animal would be much more simple. Think of all the frustrations you could avoid. Hard part is finding an animal with a steady paying job.
Circus monkey, ideally one that manages other monkeys and report to the ringmaster
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