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      06-25-2015, 07:09 PM   #23
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I think it's safe to say that this side disagrees with that side not because we can't see the problem, but because people don't care and want to disagree just to disagree and have things their way even if it's creating unnecessary issues.
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      06-26-2015, 01:30 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
First, I totally respect the things our men and women in uniform do for the county.

That being said, a soldier has no living expenses if s/he chooses to live in the barracks. 2 years of service, with minimal tattooing and drinking = a brand new BMW. For some of the smarter ones, they save up that money, and do the ED on the way home. IMHO, they deserve nothing less.
First off, I understand how most people are patriotic and want to thank the men and women for their service and I get that. But they CHOOSE to join and continue their service. In my opinion, service members are paid fairly, considering the various degrees of education and work ethic that are allowed into the service, and also for the healthcare (although shitty, it's still free).

Soldiers don't CHOOSE to live in the barracks. Single (not married or with no kids) lower ranking personnel (speaking for Army) must live there until they reach a certain rank, usually at Staff Sergeant (E-6) they get to move off base. I know because that's what happened to me. I didn't like it, so I worked my ass off, got promoted, and moved out. Simple.

I agree on being smart with your money. I personally know that my friend lived in the barracks for 4 years, with two deployments, and saved up enough money to get out and go to college without having to get a job, just using his savings and GI Bill to earn his degree. However, rarely are Soldiers smart with their money.

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Originally Posted by SoCal235 View Post
This article literally has a soldier complaining about his soldiers not getting paid enough.
I don't take it that way. This guy was a Commissioned Officer. He makes way more money than enlisted Soldiers and he knows this. I think he was comparing to HIS subordinates...the enlisted folks.

I have read the articles where fast food workers want $15 an hour and then some people compare that $15 an hour to making "more" than the military. This "more than the military" statement only applies to enlisted personnel with less than 4-6 years of service in the grades of E-4 and below. $15 an hour equates to $2,600 a month based off a 40 hour week. You can easily look up military pay tables and see how much each rank/grade makes per years in service. You want more money? Do your time, work hard and get promoted.

I'll be realistic here. There are definitely, without a doubt, Soldiers don't do shit at work. They are there simply to make a paycheck and go home and fuck off all day and do little to contribute to their generation of the military. However I would say that this only encompasses less than a third of the military. The others generally give a shit and work hard and would lay everything on the line for the guy/gal to his/her right or left.

That said, I strongly disagree with the fast workers make more than our Soldiers, portion of that article. It's simple - work hard and you'll get promoted, thus making more money. If you don't want to do that, get the fuck out.

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Originally Posted by bmwmsport View Post
Basic pay for soldiers was $35,000/yr at its highest.

I think he understands the "plight of others that are less fortunate than him." I don't see why a soldier on the grounds in Iraq should make less than the person flipping burgers at Wendys. Minimum wage jobs are for highschoolers looking for some spending money, it wasn't designed to support a family of four.
That $35,000 doesn't include roughly $10,000 a year for BAH/BAS. People who are deployed get tax free money, plus deployment pay. We are definitely compensated fairly for what we do.

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Originally Posted by ///M Villain View Post
Not to come at you in any way, but where have you been. Enlisted service members aren't at all happy with their pay. Throughout the years you see reports of service members on welfare barely making it with a wife and two to three kids. The only service members that get paid well are those who went to college and became Officers. And some branches of the Military enlisted members can't rank with a good evaluation and test scores, which is the standard for ranking to make more money. The reason for that is closed rates "jobs like Electrician Mate" from surplus of personnel in that job field along with a few other reasons.
I know plenty of people who have 2-3 kids and a wife (who doesn't work) and manage just fine. It just boils down to being smart with your money. I am single, enlisted and have been in for 7 years. Between all of my allowances and before taxes, I make roughly $55,000 a year. Not bad for only 50 college credit hours, and joining before I was 20. I work my ass off every single day at work, and don't take anything for granted or have a sense of entitlement. I'd say I make a pretty good living from the military, and I know I can get out in a few years if I get sick of it. My choice and I'm thankful that I HAVE made the correct choices in my life. I have also made some extremely poor choices in my life, and although it sucks and is unfortunate, you learn from it and move forward.

I understand the promotion thing. Sometimes you cannot get promoted to due reasons which are too complicated to explain here. You can have an excellent test score (Navy/Air Force) and do well on boards (Army) and have an awesome military resume, but for maxed out points, or total number of personnel in your job, you can't get promoted. However, the military offers ways to get into jobs that you can get promoted. I'm sorry, but it's your career...so take charge.

Hopefully that helped clear some misinformation and confusion up. Anything military related always holds a special place in my heart for discussion, even if it's the brutal truth
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      06-26-2015, 02:16 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by BAMFM3 View Post
...
I know plenty of people who have 2-3 kids and a wife (who doesn't work) and manage just fine. It just boils down to being smart with your money. I am single, enlisted and have been in for 7 years. Between all of my allowances and before taxes, I make roughly $55,000 a year. Not bad for only 50 college credit hours, and joining before I was 20. I work my ass off every single day at work, and don't take anything for granted or have a sense of entitlement. I'd say I make a pretty good living from the military, and I know I can get out in a few years if I get sick of it. My choice and I'm thankful that I HAVE made the correct choices in my life. I have also made some extremely poor choices in my life, and although it sucks and is unfortunate, you learn from it and move forward.

I understand the promotion thing. Sometimes you cannot get promoted to due reasons which are too complicated to explain here. You can have an excellent test score (Navy/Air Force) and do well on boards (Army) and have an awesome military resume, but for maxed out points, or total number of personnel in your job, you can't get promoted. However, the military offers ways to get into jobs that you can get promoted. I'm sorry, but it's your career...so take charge.

Hopefully that helped clear some misinformation and confusion up. Anything military related always holds a special place in my heart for discussion, even if it's the brutal truth
What you know is a lot of people who are quite well off for the geographic region in which they live. In U.S., having four "dependents" and oneself living on one salary only happens when that salary is comparatively substantial. If the salary isn't substantial, the unearned or passive income that family earn/produce is. If neither of those two things is so, then (1) that family's (or perhaps your) idea of "just fine" differs greatly from what most folks' idea of that term is, or (2) those families don't live in U.S., or (3) your talking about families with special circumstances/criteria.

As an example of the last possiblity, one might consider the family that includes myself, Mother, Daddy, and my kids as doing just fine. We are, Mother doesn't work either, but I have a very nice salary and my parents don't depend on my income for their existence or anything else. Similarly, an Amish family might be thought of as doing just fine, as might a family that can provide for all its needs from just the resources it can produce on it's own farm. Those are just a few "special circumstance/criteria" situation, but there are surely others.

Short of that, in U.S., four or five people living on an average income is four or five people who are struggling and who have little means for self-sufficiency and independent resolutions in the event of unforeseen misfortune.

All the best.
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      06-27-2015, 02:24 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
What you know is a lot of people who are quite well off for the geographic region in which they live. In U.S., having four "dependents" and oneself living on one salary only happens when that salary is comparatively substantial. If the salary isn't substantial, the unearned or passive income that family earn/produce is. If neither of those two things is so, then (1) that family's (or perhaps your) idea of "just fine" differs greatly from what most folks' idea of that term is, or (2) those families don't live in U.S., or (3) your talking about families with special circumstances/criteria.

As an example of the last possiblity, one might consider the family that includes myself, Mother, Daddy, and my kids as doing just fine. We are, Mother doesn't work either, but I have a very nice salary and my parents don't depend on my income for their existence or anything else. Similarly, an Amish family might be thought of as doing just fine, as might a family that can provide for all its needs from just the resources it can produce on it's own farm. Those are just a few "special circumstance/criteria" situation, but there are surely others.

Short of that, in U.S., four or five people living on an average income is four or five people who are struggling and who have little means for self-sufficiency and independent resolutions in the event of unforeseen misfortune.

All the best.
That statement was in response to the "service members on welfare barely making it with a wife and two to three kids" comment. I have lived in the Northeast, Mid Atlantic, Mid-West and South, and know many families. The great thing about the military is that I know how much each and every one of these families make (roughly $60-65,000 a year, but only $40-45,000 is taxed). Well off being, they don't eat ramen noodles for every meal, don't have to open a new credit card every month to make due, and don't have to re-use toilet paper and diapers, and can enjoy occasional "luxuries" such as going out to eat, seeing a movie, etc a few times a month as a family (again, see barely making it on welfare comment above). This is in regards to the male being a service member, the female being a stay at home mother, and two to three children between the ages of 2 and 17. Off the top of my head I can think of at least 12 families that meet this criteria.

Additionally, geographic region does not apply in this case, as pay varies depending on which zip code you are associated with.
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      06-27-2015, 02:15 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by BAMFM3 View Post
That statement was in response to the "service members on welfare barely making it with a wife and two to three kids" comment. I have lived in the Northeast, Mid Atlantic, Mid-West and South, and know many families. The great thing about the military is that I know how much each and every one of these families make (roughly $60-65,000 a year, but only $40-45,000 is taxed). Well off being, they don't eat ramen noodles for every meal, don't have to open a new credit card every month to make due, and don't have to re-use toilet paper and diapers, and can enjoy occasional "luxuries" such as going out to eat, seeing a movie, etc a few times a month as a family (again, see barely making it on welfare comment above). This is in regards to the male being a service member, the female being a stay at home mother, and two to three children between the ages of 2 and 17. Off the top of my head I can think of at least 12 families that meet this criteria.

Additionally, geographic region does not apply in this case, as pay varies depending on which zip code you are associated with.
Okay, perhaps my reply took your comments somewhat out of context. Apologies if that's so.

Red:
I don't know what point you're making by that that statement.

Yes, that'd be roughly so for any family of four or five.
  • $12.4K -- Standard deduction in 2014 for married filing jointly with no "special circumstances.
  • $3900 *5 = $19500 -- Exemption for oneself and each dependent
Total = $31,900 of adjustments to AGI ($28K if a family of four), which is to say military or not, a family of five is entitled to reduce its income that's subject to federal income tax. (Of course there are other taxes to which they may be subject, such as sales tax, payroll tax, etc.).

Even after that, I can assure you that in D.C., a family of four or five is without question going to be struggling to make ends meet. Living very frugally, they probably could get by, but they are by no means living homes with white picket fences and driving BMW 3 Series cars. They will be living a lifestyle whereby they are concerned about the absolute prices of things more so than taking a "it's not much more than X, so why not" view.

Blue (and red):
Admittedly, you're talking about military families, and they will have some bonuses that the average $60K/year family of five won't, not the least of which is a housing allowance. My comment is, in contrast, with regard to a non-military family.

Purple:
You lost me there. What about a "zip code" makes you think it doesn't define a geographic region?

I live in D.C. zip code 20008 and I'm pretty sure the military would tell it's employees to choose a different place to live before they paid them enough to live in my neck of the woods. I mentor a couple kids who live in 20019 and the military would probably have no issue with someone choosing to live in that area, but I don't think many would choose that area.

Our homes are less than five miles apart, and yet there differences between the cost of living in their neighborhood and mine could not be greater. The difference is most apparent in terms of housing, but even things like food (heck, in my area, aside from the grocery store, there's really no such thing as "subsistence" food, and even the local grocers are more expensive), restaurants, and dry cleaning are dramatically more expensive in my area than in theirs.

Sidebar:
If I'm honest, now that I think about it, I can't say I recall even having seen a dry cleaner in their neighborhood. I assume there must be one, but I don't know where it is, whereas I can walk -- longish walk to be sure -- to two or three and there are almost a dozen within a three to five minute drive....after writing that, I was rather surprised that I couldn't think of a single dry cleaner in their area, so I checked a map....there are two in the whole of 20019 which as an area no more or less residential than is mine. There are also only two laundromats in their area.

All the best.
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      06-27-2015, 05:32 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
Okay, perhaps my reply took your comments somewhat out of context. Apologies if that's so.

Red:
I don't know what point you're making by that that statement.

Yes, that'd be roughly so for any family of four or five.
  • $12.4K -- Standard deduction in 2014 for married filing jointly with no "special circumstances.
  • $3900 *5 = $19500 -- Exemption for oneself and each dependent
Total = $31,900 of adjustments to AGI ($28K if a family of four), which is to say military or not, a family of five is entitled to reduce its income that's subject to federal income tax. (Of course there are other taxes to which they may be subject, such as sales tax, payroll tax, etc.).

Even after that, I can assure you that in D.C., a family of four or five is without question going to be struggling to make ends meet. Living very frugally, they probably could get by, but they are by no means living homes with white picket fences and driving BMW 3 Series cars. They will be living a lifestyle whereby they are concerned about the absolute prices of things more so than taking a "it's not much more than X, so why not" view.

Blue (and red):
Admittedly, you're talking about military families, and they will have some bonuses that the average $60K/year family of five won't, not the least of which is a housing allowance. My comment is, in contrast, with regard to a non-military family.

Purple:
You lost me there. What about a "zip code" makes you think it doesn't define a geographic region?

I live in D.C. zip code 20008 and I'm pretty sure the military would tell it's employees to choose a different place to live before they paid them enough to live in my neck of the woods. I mentor a couple kids who live in 20019 and the military would probably have no issue with someone choosing to live in that area, but I don't think many would choose that area.

Our homes are less than five miles apart, and yet there differences between the cost of living in their neighborhood and mine could not be greater. The difference is most apparent in terms of housing, but even things like food (heck, in my area, aside from the grocery store, there's really no such thing as "subsistence" food, and even the local grocers are more expensive), restaurants, and dry cleaning are dramatically more expensive in my area than in theirs.

Sidebar:
If I'm honest, now that I think about it, I can't say I recall even having seen a dry cleaner in their neighborhood. I assume there must be one, but I don't know where it is, whereas I can walk -- longish walk to be sure -- to two or three and there are almost a dozen within a three to five minute drive....after writing that, I was rather surprised that I couldn't think of a single dry cleaner in their area, so I checked a map....there are two in the whole of 20019 which as an area no more or less residential than is mine. There are also only two laundromats in their area.

All the best.
Yeah I think I definitely am not on the same page as you, as far as what we are talking about which is probably why I make little to no sense. All I was trying to say was that people in the military can live "comfortable lives" (according to my standards) as long as they don't spend their earnings without regard to how much they actually make a month/year.

Also, for the geographic region comment (when I think that, I think northeast, southeast, midwest, etc) I was just saying that for military pay doesn't matter as much as the zip code to where they are living, as that is how your housing allowance is calculated. For example, mine was $1110 in Fayetteville, it is $1440 in Tampa and the zip of 20008 would yield me $2016 a month - which ends up being a $10,872 yearly difference in income, and since housing isn't taxed, it truly is $10,872 a year. I also have no dependents, the rates for with dependents is obviously going to be higher.

Oh, and the statement in RED. All I meant was when people talk about military pay, it is actually a bit higher than what you would think. Say your base pay is $3,000. Plus you get $1000 for housing and $350 for food allowance a month. You are only taxed on the $3,000 a month, not the other $1,350. So on paper it looks like we make less money than we actually do, and this applies to the same at the end of the year files taxes.

Have a good weekend gents!
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      06-28-2015, 10:45 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by BAMFM3 View Post
Yeah I think I definitely am not on the same page as you, as far as what we are talking about which is probably why I make little to no sense. All I was trying to say was that people in the military can live "comfortable lives" (according to my standards) as long as they don't spend their earnings without regard to how much they actually make a month/year.

Also, for the geographic region comment (when I think that, I think northeast, southeast, midwest, etc) I was just saying that for military pay doesn't matter as much as the zip code to where they are living, as that is how your housing allowance is calculated. For example, mine was $1110 in Fayetteville, it is $1440 in Tampa and the zip of 20008 would yield me $2016 a month - which ends up being a $10,872 yearly difference in income, and since housing isn't taxed, it truly is $10,872 a year. I also have no dependents, the rates for with dependents is obviously going to be higher.

Oh, and the statement in RED. All I meant was when people talk about military pay, it is actually a bit higher than what you would think. Say your base pay is $3,000. Plus you get $1000 for housing and $350 for food allowance a month. You are only taxed on the $3,000 a month, not the other $1,350. So on paper it looks like we make less money than we actually do, and this applies to the same at the end of the year files taxes.

Have a good weekend gents!
TY for the clarification. I much better understand what you mean now.

All the best.
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      06-28-2015, 11:01 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
First, I totally respect the things our men and women in uniform do for the county.

That being said, a soldier has no living expenses if s/he chooses to live in the barracks. 2 years of service, with minimal tattooing and drinking = a brand new BMW. For some of the smarter ones, they save up that money, and do the ED on the way home. IMHO, they deserve nothing less.
Military members get a housing allowance. If the member lives in the barracks, he/she gives up that allowance as "rent". It is not extra money.
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      07-02-2015, 12:48 AM   #31
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^ Yup...and it's the most expensive "rent" you'll ever pay lol. When I used to live in the barracks my entire living space was about a 250-350 sq ft tiled-floor room to include a sink/mirror with a shared toilet/shower with a suite mate. Talk about no room to keep car parts!

So happy I was able to move off post a few years ago.
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      07-10-2015, 10:55 PM   #32
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I'm offended that you're offended by me being offended!
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      07-13-2015, 12:14 PM   #33
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I'm offended that you're offended by me being offended!
So. Much. Offensiveness!!!!
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      07-18-2015, 12:32 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
What do active duty servicemen receive that a minimum wage earner does not receive?
I don't think servicemen could not stand to be better paid. I wouldn't oppose a pay increase for them. I'm just saying that the info you cited omits a significant portion of the full picture.

I don't know why it is that so many folks will latch on to one little factoid, one little "sound bite," and then make some proclamation based on it. Things in this world are rarely that simple.

All the best.
The pay & benefits that the average US service man and woman receive is adequate to keep their standard of living above the poverty-line. But $35k a year, to go fight over seas, work with and build rapport with indigenous peoples, evacuate casualties, determine logistical and security tactical procedures, ect., live and survive in a campaign environment, is not enough. This topic has been discussed ad nauseam, in military journals and others, and many agree that our service men and women deserve a pay raise and the services need one to attract the right quality of personnel. Paying the average soldier an annual rate exceeds the average fast food worker's salary by only a few thousand $ is a joke. If you want quality service men and women, you need to offer quality pay.

http://www.rand.org/pubs/issue_papers/IP205/index2.html

Also their pay and benefits after getting out, are barely adequate for helping many of them, especially those who are seriously injured (many of whom rely on charity to make it through difficult times) and those who are trained as combat arms specialists (there aren't many civilian jobs where a machine gunner can take his skill set and directly apply them).

In summary, there is some merit to what the author is saying. Benefits don't tell the full story when it comes to service and pay in the military.
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      07-23-2015, 03:32 PM   #35
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No one every made anything of themselves, improved their own lives or the lives of other by playing the victim. I refer all victims to the lyrics of one of my favorite Eagles songs: "Get Over It"

I turn on the tube and what do I see?
A whole lotta people cryin', 'Don't blame me'
They point their crooked little fingers at everybody else
Spend all their time feelin' sorry for themselves
Victim of this, victim of that
Your mama's too thin and your daddy's too fat

Get over it!
Get over it!
All this whinin' and cryin' and pitchin' a fit
Get over it! Get over it!

You say you haven't been the same since you had your little crash
But you might feel better if they gave you some cash
The more I think about it old Billy was right
Let's kill all the lawyers, kill 'em tonight
You don't wanna work, you wanna live like a king
But the big, bad world doesn't owe you a thing

Get over it!
Get over it!
If you don't wanna play then you might as well split
Get over it! Get over it!

It's like goin' to confession every time I hear you speak
You're makin' the most of your losin' streak
Some call it sick but I call it weak, yeah yeah yeah

Yeah you drag it around like a ball and chain
You wallow in the guilt, you wallow in the pain
You wave it like a flag, you wear it like a crown
Got your mind in the gutter, bringin' everybody down
You bitch about the present and blame it on the past
I'd like to find your inner child and kick its little ass!

Get over it!
Get over it!
All this bitchin' and moanin' and pitchin' a fit
Get over it! Get over it!

Get over it!
Get over it!
It's gotta stop sometime so why don't you quit?
Get over it! Get over it!
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