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      02-04-2015, 01:24 PM   #1
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Godless parents are doing a better job...

That would be me...

http://jezebel.com/godless-parents-a...urce=pulsenews
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      02-04-2015, 09:48 PM   #2
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A subjective article by a leftist blog site claiming that religion hurts society....I see nothing groundbreaking here.
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      02-04-2015, 10:44 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
A subjective article by a leftist blog site claiming that religion hurts society....I see nothing groundbreaking here.
Just skimmed over it but it seemed to imply that non-religion does NOT hurt society, which isn't quite the same thing.
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      02-04-2015, 10:45 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Devious21 View Post
Just skimmed over it but it seemed to imply that non-religion does NOT hurt society, which isn't quite the same thing.
Did you see the title of the article?
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      02-04-2015, 11:05 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
Did you see the title of the article?
lol did you read any further than it?
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      02-04-2015, 11:27 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Devious21 View Post
lol did you read any further than it?
Skimmed it. My point is the title is designed to either:

A) mislead the reader about the author's main points

or

B) make a bold claim

'Godless parents do it better'

How would you interpret that title?
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      02-04-2015, 11:43 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
Skimmed it. My point is the title is designed to either:

A) mislead the reader about the author's main points

or

B) make a bold claim

'Godless parents do it better'

How would you interpret that title?
That Godless parents raise their kids better.

This was to highlight that, as stated in the article:
Quote:
Not believing in God isn't synonymous with being amoral.
But instead, you interpreted it as "Godless raise their kids better, so religious parents raise their kids worse, so religion is in general bad and more specifically, hurts society"
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      02-05-2015, 12:00 AM   #8
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I just realized that if you have the assumption that non-religious families are amoral or even immoral, than the idea that they might raise their children better than you would imply you are even more amoral/immoral than them.
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      02-05-2015, 12:01 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devious21 View Post
That Godless parents raise their kids better.

This was to highlight that, as stated in the article:


But instead, you interpreted it as "Godless raise their kids better, so religious parents raise their kids worse, so religion is in general bad and more specifically, hurts society"
I'm sorry bud, I agree with the positions you take on a lot of issues but not on this one.

You posted the correct title: "Godless parents raise their kids better."

My point still stands, it's a provocative title that really has no room for interpretation. If it was meant to be serve as a literary device (exaggeration, sarcastic opinion) the author certainly didn't do a good job of making that apparent.
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      02-05-2015, 12:07 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
I'm sorry bud, I agree with the positions you take on a lot of issues but not on this one.

You posted the correct title: "Godless parents raise their kids better."

My point still stands, it's a provocative title that really has no room for interpretation. If it was meant to be serve as a literary device (exaggeration, sarcastic opinion) the author certainly didn't do a good job of making that apparent.
I don't understand. What did you think "Do it better" meant and how did you get from whatever that is to "so that must means religion hurts society"?

I definitely agree with you that it's a provocative title meant to induce clicking. I don't know how you got from the title or the article that it was trying to say religion is harmful to society.
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      02-05-2015, 12:09 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Devious21 View Post
I just realized that if you have the assumption that non-religious families are amoral or even immoral, than the idea that they might raise their children better than you would imply you are even more amoral/immoral than them.
I don't speak for anyone but myself.

I consider myself a Christian, but I don't believe that atheists, agnostics or other religions are any more or less moral than I am because of their religious beliefs (or lack thereof).

I don't think that a Christian parent (or religious one) is necessarily a better parent than a non-religious one and vice versa.

I think this author is making a counter to what is ultimately a straw-man argument: that somehow anyone who publicly declares his/her atheism automatically loses moral credibility in the eyes of others (religious people).

I'm sure you can find some religious people who think that way. I'm sure you can find some other religious people who think differently.

It's this projecting of victim-hood that I find insulting. The author wrote this article to "correct" the false perceptions that all religious people supposedly have about atheists. I never had that perception to begin with.
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Last edited by Dalko43; 02-05-2015 at 12:18 AM.
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      02-05-2015, 12:17 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devious21 View Post
I don't understand. What did you think "Do it better" meant and how did you get from whatever that is to "so that must means religion hurts society"?

I definitely agree with you that it's a provocative title meant to induce clicking. I don't know how you got from the title or the article that it was trying to say religion is harmful to society.
Her title stated: "Godless parents are doing a better job."

While I agree that her actual article took a slightly less derisive tone, that title explicitly claims that non-religious parents are better at parenting, and thus, by logical conclusion, religious parents are not as good at parenting.

I didn't make these words up, nor do I have to discover some hidden literary implication behind that title. The author wrote those words and didn't do a very good job of supporting them or explaining her literary intent behind them.

It was intended to stir up controversy and bring viewership to a blog site that otherwise has a small following (relatively speaking).
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      02-05-2015, 12:26 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
Her title stated: "Godless parents are doing a better job."

While I agree that her actual article took a slightly less derisive tone, that title explicitly claims that non-religious parents are better at parenting, and thus, by logical conclusion, religious parents are not as good at parenting.

I didn't make these words up, nor do I have to discover some hidden literary implication behind that title. The author wrote those words and didn't do a very good job of supporting them or explaining her literary intent behind them.

It was intended to stir up controversy and bring viewership to a blog site that otherwise has a small following (relatively speaking).

So this is where I see the disconnect:

If you don't assume non-religious are doing a bad job, then the fact that "They do it better than religious" doesn't mean religious are doing a bad job. Let's say non-religious are doing a "Great Job" then maybe religious are doing a "Good Job".

But if for some reason you think non-religious are doing a poor job, THEN IT MAKES SENSE, that someone saying that they do a better job then you implies you're doing a terrible job.

But your last comment before this one just insisted that you do NOT think that.

So I'm still not clear why you jumped to the assumption, from title alone, that it was implying religion was harming society. That's quite a leap to take unless you have some pre-existing notions regarding the non-religious, since it's making a purely relative statement.
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      02-05-2015, 12:48 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devious21 View Post
So this is where I see the disconnect:

If you don't assume non-religious are doing a bad job, then the fact that "They do it better than religious" doesn't mean religious are doing a bad job. Let's say non-religious are doing a "Great Job" then maybe religious are doing a "Good Job".

But if for some reason you think non-religious are doing a poor job, THEN IT MAKES SENSE, that someone saying that they do a better job then you implies you're doing a terrible job.

But your last comment before this one just insisted that you do NOT think that.

So I'm still not clear why you jumped to the assumption, from title alone, that it was implying religion was harming society. That's quite a leap to take unless you have some pre-existing notions regarding the non-religious, since it's making a purely relative statement.
You are really stretching your logic thin to make this argument.

The author said in her title, "Godless parents are doing a better job."
This being an article by an atheist about atheism, no one has to assume anything in order to understand that she is comparing the parenting abilities of atheists to that of religious parents...with the conclusion that religious parents aren't as good at parenting.

You are bringing up trivial points by saying things like, "an atheist parent being better than a religious parent doesn't mean religious parents are bad."

Her claim is clear enough and quite insulting.

As well, as I have already mentioned that the whole tone of her blog presumes that religious people, by their nature, automatically assume atheists are immoral and are not as good at parenting. I'm a Christian and I don't think that at all...I don't think you would have to look too hard to find similar-minded Christians.
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      02-05-2015, 11:40 AM   #15
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Let's look at a similar title, but from the view of the non-religious: "God-fearing parents are doing a better job" Are you now insulted and think less of yourself because you have been labeled as less of a parent? If not, discussion over.
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      02-05-2015, 02:06 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
A subjective article by a leftist blog site claiming that religion hurts society....I see nothing groundbreaking here.
With all due respect your post makes no sense sir:

1- A blog site (leftist or conservative) does not contain articles, they contain blog entries.

2- Blog entries are subjective in nature, it is pretty much someone giving his/her opinion about a subject, it can be very specific or all over the place.

3- Blog entries have almost no rules on how to write them and targets no specific type of audience.

The reason for the blog entry is because there is a common perception that Godless people are immoral or amoral, even a menace to the established society. I've even been told that Godless people should not have kids.

As an Atheist I do not have the option to pull the "You are going to hell if you do _____" or "The Bible says so!" card on my kid. I have to impart a moral code based on a more human approach "because it is the right thing to do" or "because it hurts others".

My kid had a friend since Kindergarten (he is in fourth now), for the past 3 years he has been over to my house plenty of times, baby sat him sometimes from morning until evening, I have fed him, taken him to DQ for ice cream, pretty much the normal things that parents do with their kids and friends. Last year my kid and him had a discussion about God and he found out we were not religious. I guess he told his parents and ever since then the kid is not allowed to come over, play or hang out at school with my kid.

It seems like before they knew we were Atheists we were great but all of the sudden we have become unwelcomed and not a good influence.

What do you think those parents are teaching to their kid?
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      02-05-2015, 06:43 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KlausPA View Post
My kid had a friend since Kindergarten (he is in fourth now), for the past 3 years he has been over to my house plenty of times, baby sat him sometimes from morning until evening, I have fed him, taken him to DQ for ice cream, pretty much the normal things that parents do with their kids and friends. Last year my kid and him had a discussion about God and he found out we were not religious. I guess he told his parents and ever since then the kid is not allowed to come over, play or hang out at school with my kid.

It seems like before they knew we were Atheists we were great but all of the sudden we have become unwelcomed and not a good influence.

What do you think those parents are teaching to their kid?
I'd bet my car that those parents are teaching their kid the same set of values that were instilled in them by their own parents, who probably got it from their parents, and so on.....

Somehow, someone got it in their head that judging someone like that, and then discriminating against them based on the results of that judgment, is being a good Christian, something the bible would endorse, and nobody in their family tree has challenged that determination since. (cause, you know, questioning stuff is BAD, blindly accepting things on faith with no evidence is GOOD).

Try not to feel too upset. Apparently, not believing in an invisible man in the sky is one of the leading indicators you are a terrible person to be avoided.

It's a belief that's not just shared by "some" religious people, as has been implied by some posters in this thread, but more than half the country would rather vote for a pot-smoking marital cheater than someone who professes to be an atheist.

In fact, "across five experiments, American participants intuitively judged a wide variety of immoral acts (e.g., serial murder, consensual incest, necrobestiality, cannibalism) as representative of atheists, but not of eleven other religious, ethnic, and cultural groups."

http://www.salon.com/2014/05/21/hitc...ist_president/
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      02-05-2015, 06:48 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
You are really stretching your logic thin to make this argument.
I'm stretching logic thin and taking major leaps to TRY AND UNDERSTAND how you could come to that conclusion. If the logic looks thing that's because it is. I still am not clear how you came to that conclusion from the title alone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
Her claim is clear enough and quite insulting.

As well, as I have already mentioned that the whole tone of her blog presumes that religious people, by their nature, automatically assume atheists are immoral and are not as good at parenting. I'm a Christian and I don't think that at all...I don't think you would have to look too hard to find similar-minded Christians.
The blog assumes that it is a common argument because it IS a common argument. As a religious person, you most likely would have less exposure to the argument as someone who is non-religious. The idea that Morality comes from God is not uncommon at all. Google things like "Morality, law giver, God" and you'll know what I'm talking about very quickly, if you've never been introduced to this.

That said, I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you DON'T assume that. But if that's the case, how did you get to "the title of the article claims Religion harms society"? The only way I can possibly see that you could arrive at that translation is if you DO assume non-religious are bad or poor parents and therefore Religion is worse than that. Otherwise, I really can't see how you got "religion is harmful to society" from that. You read into the title in some way that the rest of us didn't.
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      02-06-2015, 01:35 AM   #19
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An atheist, a vegan, and a crossfitter walked into a bar.

I only know because they told everyone within 2 minutes.


This is a little OT but it tangentially pertains to the existence of that article in the first place . . . So here goes my perspective (based solely on my observations): It seems that these days, I am often bombarded by the views and beliefs of atheists/agnostics. I don't hear so much as a peep from the Christians/Jews/Muslims/etc.

Personally, I am tolerant of all views. Whatever it is though, unless I ask about it, keep it to yourself. (I am talking about public personal interactions here, whether they be with strangers at a bar or co-workers. This topic is perfectly fine for discussion in this sub-forum).

When I raise my children, I will let them decide for themselves what they want to believe (as far as religion is concerned). I will try my best to instill in them good (and tolerant) values. Whether the cultivation of those values is a byproduct of religion or common sense doesn't matter to me.

As far as whether religion is harming society . . . I think that's nonsense. Let me name a few "contemporary" religious figures that had profound positive impacts on society: Maximilian Kolbe, Martin Luther King, Jr., Gandhi, and Albert Einstein (Einstein's take on religion was rather unique), to name a few.

By that same token I don't think atheism/agnosticism is hurting society either.

Now back to you regularly scheduled arguing.
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      02-06-2015, 01:19 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ybbiz34 View Post
An atheist, a vegan, and a crossfitter walked into a bar.

I only know because they told everyone within 2 minutes.

It seems that these days, I am often bombarded by the views and beliefs of atheists/agnostics. I don't hear so much as a peep from the Christians/Jews/Muslims/etc.
That is because Christians/Jews/Muslims/etc. have been established for thousands of years and Atheists have never been this vocal before.
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      02-06-2015, 03:27 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KlausPA View Post
That is because Christians/Jews/Muslims/etc. have been established for thousands of years and Atheists have never been this vocal before.
More self-righteous maybe.
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      02-07-2015, 11:53 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fcman
Quote:
Originally Posted by KlausPA View Post
That is because Christians/Jews/Muslims/etc. have been established for thousands of years and Atheists have never been this vocal before.
More self-righteous maybe.
I could not have defined it better.
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